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Autocrat
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#1
30th January 2008
Old 30th January 2008
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KRK Systems - ERGO Room Correction

#2
30th January 2008
Old 30th January 2008
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That is pretty darn cool! I use IK ARC right now and it has made me a believer in this type of technology. All the acoustics guys will poo poo it, but for me, this stuff works. The thing I like about this KRK unit is that it is hardware and doesn't have to be used as a plug in. With ARC, I can't route anything other than my DAW through it. So, it's useless for referencing mixes unless you bring mixes into your project. Having everything run through this and being able to have different settings for different sets of speakers is very cool.

j
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30th January 2008
Old 30th January 2008
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That's actually cool on other levels though, even if you don't use the correction side. It's actually a complete interface. If it's clean, it will be worth checking out.

War
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30th January 2008
Old 30th January 2008
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That does look pretty cool. Too bad I have little use for it as an audio interface. If they geared one more towards a master controller (i.e. Central Station killer) with room eq correction, that would be the shit as far as I'm concerned.
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30th January 2008
Old 30th January 2008
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Quote:
If they geared one more towards a master controller (i.e. Central Station killer) with room eq correction, that would be the shit as far as I'm concerned.
dbx had that Drive Rack Studio a couple years back, although that was missing an output volume control...which, I think, was a fairly major omission...

I lean towards the ARC system because it seems to be the only one to let you stay in the analog realm after your D/A converters of choice...I see that this one has no digital out, only a digital in. I'm sure that their converters are fine but I prefer not to have my signal go through an extra round of conversion unnecessarily...

I have heard what these types of systems can do, though, and it's very impressive...I really like the JBL system...but I think it would be better marketed as an addition to room treatment, not as an alternative...
#6
31st January 2008
Old 31st January 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayman View Post
That is pretty darn cool! I use IK ARC right now and it has made me a believer in this type of technology. All the acoustics guys will poo poo it, but for me, this stuff works. The thing I like about this KRK unit is that it is hardware and doesn't have to be used as a plug in. With ARC, I can't route anything other than my DAW through it. So, it's useless for referencing mixes unless you bring mixes into your project. Having everything run through this and being able to have different settings for different sets of speakers is very cool.

j
I just checked out the ARC system. Sounds really cool. What type of improvement did you get from the system? Was your room already treated to some extent?

thanks,
Brad
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31st January 2008
Old 31st January 2008
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Can you really benefit from this ?

I always thought that you can't correct problem control room acoustics with EQ, since the Q of the problem areas could be so high.... ( and that moving your head just a foot back could cause a problem since nulls, and peaks , or standing waves can vary with just a small movement forward or backward..... I'd say.... Borrow one of these systems...find out where you problem is... and then.... fix it with acoustic treatment !! (Make sure to give the room correction system back to your buddy... )
#8
31st January 2008
Old 31st January 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
I just checked out the ARC system. Sounds really cool. What type of improvement did you get from the system? Was your room already treated to some extent?

thanks,
Brad
Brad, you can see the whole story on this thread here:

IK Multimedia ARC System vs Acoustic Treatment???

I'll give the quick story. When I first installed ARC, I thought it was trying too hard to fix the issues, so I took out all my treatment and installed 27 bass traps. I STILL had peaks in the 100 to 200hz range. ARC took care of this and so now I'm not pulling out those freq. in my mixes.
#9
31st January 2008
Old 31st January 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukejs View Post
I always thought that you can't correct problem control room acoustics with EQ, since the Q of the problem areas could be so high.... ( and that moving your head just a foot back could cause a problem since nulls, and peaks , or standing waves can vary with just a small movement forward or backward..... I'd say.... Borrow one of these systems...find out where you problem is... and then.... fix it with acoustic treatment !! (Make sure to give the room correction system back to your buddy... )
I think it would be difficult for any software to take care of problems in an untreated room. You would have issues like you explain here with moving your head back and forth and having different peaks and nulls rearing their ugly head.

I did try and fix my problems with room treatment, and although it helped a GREAT DEAL, ARC really worked to get it all the way there. It's so much easier to make mix decisions now.

BTW, I've had the driverack years ago and JBL 6328 which took out 2 modes. Didn't like the driverack at all, really weirded out the sound, and I did like the JBL for taking out the modes. The problem was, they didn't allow you to measure from anywhere but the mix position. ARC and this new ERGO thing have you measure at different places in the room and although I can't explain how this could work, I can see how it would at least tame the prevailing modes in a room. I really like what ARC does for me in my situation. Very happy and I'll def. be looking into ERGO once it's out.
#10
1st February 2008
Old 1st February 2008
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Cool..I might be interested in this one!Any1 knows if it's a passive box?I've checked the website..It has some kind of converters in it. Not sure that is the best thing to put between my Apogees and S3a.. Any ideas?
#11
11th February 2008
Old 11th February 2008
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i just learned that IK ARC uses something called IIR Filter and KRK uses something called FIR (Finite Impulse Responses). so you will have latenzy from about 9ms when using KRK technologie ...

more here:
FIR Filter FAQ

.
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#12
24th March 2008
Old 24th March 2008
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Any1 used KRK Ergo with positive effects here?
#13
30th March 2008
Old 30th March 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marogru View Post
Any1 used KRK Ergo with positive effects here?
I time traveled to the second week of June, brought one back, and tested it. It worked excellent, but I had to return it before midnight Saturday so as not to alter the future with unknown consequences.
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#14
10th April 2008
Old 10th April 2008
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As soon as anyone sees some real spec/figures on the DAC side of this unit in comparrison to other converters or soundcards please let me know,

Im really interested to know where this unit places in the ranks of conversion quality compared to other DACs ,#
somewhere in the sales banter i read that KRK suggest you can use it as a monitoring DAC for you ProTools rig (i presume HDTDM ?).
Can the converters/analogue section be better than the analogue section of a 96 or 192 i/o ?
And id like to know how it would compare to an apogee minidac or a similar D to A.

And i wonder what the samplerate the Spdiff clocks up to....

If the DAC is really good and has a good clock its a shame they havnt put word clock connections on there to slave your whole systems from.

Anyways im sure we wont hear answers to all our "whys and wheres" untill they are in the public domain but if anyone happens to get hold of one early do tell us all about it (and disect it for our curiosity)
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10th April 2008
Old 10th April 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warhead View Post
That's actually cool on other levels though, even if you don't use the correction side. It's actually a complete interface. If it's clean, it will be worth checking out.

War

Hey Warren
Did you just say something?
You sound muffled as if you were stuck behind a wall or something.
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#16
10th April 2008
Old 10th April 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digi View Post
As soon as anyone sees some real spec/figures on the DAC side of this unit in comparrison to other converters or soundcards please let me know,

Im really interested to know where this unit places in the ranks of conversion quality compared to other DACs ,#
somewhere in the sales banter i read that KRK suggest you can use it as a monitoring DAC for you ProTools rig (i presume HDTDM ?).
Can the converters/analogue section be better than the analogue section of a 96 or 192 i/o ?
And id like to know how it would compare to an apogee minidac or a similar D to A.

And i wonder what the samplerate the Spdiff clocks up to....

If the DAC is really good and has a good clock its a shame they havnt put word clock connections on there to slave your whole systems from.

Anyways im sure we wont hear answers to all our "whys and wheres" untill they are in the public domain but if anyone happens to get hold of one early do tell us all about it (and disect it for our curiosity)
I think they're closer to the Motu or Presonus quality for that price..I wonder why the putted DAC in it anyway..Most of ppl serious on making quality music own already some sort of decent converters..I seriously doubt that this are anywhere near the apogee quality though.The lack of spdif out was a big let down for me! When is coming out by the way?
#17
14th April 2008
Old 14th April 2008
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Jeraz mentioned the second week of june so i guess they are out then,

I realised an answer to one of my own questions too,

There is no SPDIFF out or word clock out most likley because it has no internal clock,
I think it will be like the Alesis AI3 and have to clock from an external device therefore auto syncing

So the quality of clock would be whatever you feed it from,
Then all we have to worry about is how good the converters and analogue section are.

But im totally sold on it i think as its not just a corrected EQ like i think ARC by IK Multimedia is, there is more to it as the guy explains in the demo video.

And it was made in conjunction with Lyngdorf and based on their Room Perfect product which looks way cool,
See info here:
http://www.lyngdorf.com/downloads/pr...on_english.pdf
#18
14th April 2008
Old 14th April 2008
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Hi everyone,

Just wanted to share my findings on these things...

I bought and tried the IK ARC system and wasn't really to impressed with it.

I ended up using it to basically measure my room and then I went out and bought acoustic foam with the proper NRC's. Now my room has a flatter response than when I was using the ARC!

Just goes to show that taking some time to do things properly pays off! There is no substitute for actually calibrating your room...software just won't cut it.
I would recommend only really using these products for rough measurment or in an instance where the room is far too small to treat with acoustic absorbtion/diffusion products.

Thanks!
#19
14th April 2008
Old 14th April 2008
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My Problem is that my current studio is also my living room,
Firstly my Mrs wouldnt take to kindly to me sticking panels all over the walls and ceiling,
Secondly we do not own the place we live in and i therefore shouldnt stick things on the walls that may cause the need for refurbishment when we leave.

Of course nothing beats doing it properly and acoustically treating a room,
i know this only too well, I work in broadcast engineering and am in properly built and treated studios every day and the sound is mind blowing.

But for people like me who cannot mess about with their rooms to acoustically treat them, eq/room correction (as far as i can tell) is the only other soloution.

From what i have heard ARC measures your room and creates an inverse eq map of the results therefore theoretically pushing the room to a flat response.

But as far as im aware this only sounds correct for 1 listening position (although ARC measures up to 32 points but correct me if im wong doesnt create 32 listening positions from the results) and if you move your head 1 foot in any direction it messes everything up and sounds wrong.

Whereas i think ERGO creates a listening position and a room wide listening position meaning it corrects the whole room not just the listening position.
It also sends out a multitimbral tone to excite the room and bring out peaks and troughs, rather than a monophonic sinewave like ARC.

I cant remember the full story but read the info and watch the video on the KRK website to see where it differs from every other EQ correction.
The Main point is that it is not an inverted EQ like most others.

Of course i havnt heard it in use yet so i still cant say for sure what it does and what a mix sounds like in my car or on my hifi after using it but it sounds a step better than ARC etc...

Rather than buy ARC i would give Room EQ Wizard a try, its free:

Room EQ Wizard Home Page

Im doing that right now to see if it makes any improvements to my room before i spend any money.

So for me and Ergo, i just have to wait for it to be released and then listen to it before buying it.
#20
16th April 2008
Old 16th April 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
I wonder why the putted DAC in it anyway..Most of ppl serious on making quality music own already some sort of decent converters..
They put the DAC on it because it's going to be digitally processed anyway (1,024 digital filters), so it's better not to go out of even the highest quality DA then in the KRK AD then processed then DA out. Much better to go straight digital then out of the KRK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
The lack of spdif out was a big let down for me! When is coming out by the way?
I agree that it would have made the most sense to have a digital out so that the DA conversion could be handled by a high quality dedicated unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
I seriously doubt that this are anywhere near the apogee quality though.
It really doesn't matter if you have Apogee or Prism or whatever converters if you room sounds like poo. So maybe that's they're logic here. Still, a SPDIF would have solved this issue.
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#21
16th April 2008
Old 16th April 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by senns View Post
Hi everyone,

Just wanted to share my findings on these things...

I bought and tried the IK ARC system and wasn't really to impressed with it.

I ended up using it to basically measure my room and then I went out and bought acoustic foam with the proper NRC's. Now my room has a flatter response than when I was using the ARC!

Just goes to show that taking some time to do things properly pays off! There is no substitute for actually calibrating your room...software just won't cut it.
I would recommend only really using these products for rough measurment or in an instance where the room is far too small to treat with acoustic absorbtion/diffusion products.

Thanks!
sorry, i made a total opposite experience.
arc improved my room a lot!

but i do believe that using some acoustic treatment for
early reflections and some bass traps is still very important.

i really don't understand why you are not using arc together with your new foam.
does not make any sense to me ...

what brand of treatment did you buy?
did you test arc again after you put on the foam?
how many measurements did you take?
#22
17th April 2008
Old 17th April 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post
sorry, i made a total opposite experience.
arc improved my room a lot!

but i do believe that using some acoustic treatment for
early reflections and some bass traps is still very important.

i really don't understand why you are not using arc together with your new foam.
does not make any sense to me ...

what brand of treatment did you buy?
did you test arc again after you put on the foam?
how many measurements did you take?
I took 2 before and 2 after measurements (1 with 16 points each and 1 with 32) and my room was pretty flat in the high's and mids and had a few bigger bumps in the lows around 138 and 200.

I ended up getting Auralex foam - specifically the metro 2 and 4 inch which had the right NCR ratios for my problem areas and also bass traps in the corners. Also put in a light fabric curtain to help with the minor high's that needed addressing.

Now I should mention that I already had eggcrate style foam on the walls in some spots when I was using the ARC system.

Now according to the ARC readout, I was getting way better results by changing the foam to attenuate the proper frequencies than I was with the old foam and the ARC running! So I see no need to color my sound with an EQ just to smooth out the last minor problems that probably will never get fixed anyway until I can afford to actually build a specifically designed control room.

Like I said, it may be useful if you don't have the space or cash to do any kind of acoustic treatment...maybe it worked great for you...that's awesome...hey, do you wanna buy a used ARC system?

#23
17th April 2008
Old 17th April 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by senns View Post
I took 2 before and 2 after measurements (1 with 16 points each and 1 with 32) and my room was pretty flat in the high's and mids (only about 1.5-1.7 +/-) and had a few bigger bumps in the lows around 138 and 200 (about 2.0-4.5 +).

I ended up getting Auralex foam - specifically the metro 2 and 4 inch which had the right NCR ratios for my problem areas and also bass traps in the corners. Also put in a light fabric curtain to help with the minor high's that needed addressing.

After the acoustic treatment my highs and mids were about 0.3-0.7 +/- and my lows went to 1.2-2.1 +, which is actually a little bit better that what the ARC software was able to achieve (according to the ARC displays and readout).

Personally I thought that this was totally acceptable and I have no need to be coloring my sound further with an EQ.
don't get me wrong:
i am not an arc fanatic and i think it's ok when people don't want to use it!

i did spend much time and money to treat my room.
and my room is still not perfect ... i am still learning!

i treated my room with 12 traps of basotec and i have 6 bass traps.
before installing any treatment i measured my room with many tools
and i had many thoughts about where to put my treatment.
it took me many tries to get good results.

and AFTER doing all this i got arc.
and imho arc helped to improve the sound even more!
i believe that using arc and room treatment is pretty good!

so i am very intrested to know, why you are saying the exact opposite?!?

and that's not because i think you are wrong!
who knows - maybe i am doing something wrong on my site?

i.e. i would like to know how you could see the exact frequencies by using arc?
the graphs shown on arc are very rough-textured.
it's not like a real measuring tool that can show you stuff like spectral decay plots,
waterfalls and energy-time curves. i think it's amazing that you could get the perfect
measurement data by using arc only. beside that, i was amazed to read that you could
correct your problems with Auralex foam!

Quote:
Originally Posted by senns View Post
hey, do you wanna buy a used ARC system?
lol ... fuuck
#24
28th October 2008
Old 28th October 2008
  #24
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Is KRK Ergo Available Yet?

First Post Here:

Despite the debate regarding the effectiveness of eq based room correction, I am seriously looking into either the IK ARC or KRK ergo. Has anyone got their hands on the KRK Ergo? It is supposed to be released this month. I have arranged with my music store to borrow a unit once it is available for about a week to gauge its effectiveness in my acoustically treated room.


Quote:
Originally Posted by duvalle View Post
don't get me wrong:
i am not an arc fanatic and i think it's ok when people don't want to use it!

i did spend much time and money to treat my room.
and my room is still not perfect ... i am still learning!

i treated my room with 12 traps of basotec and i have 6 bass traps.
before installing any treatment i measured my room with many tools
and i had many thoughts about where to put my treatment.
it took me many tries to get good results.

and AFTER doing all this i got arc.
and imho arc helped to improve the sound even more!
i believe that using arc and room treatment is pretty good!

so i am very intrested to know, why you are saying the exact opposite?!?

and that's not because i think you are wrong!
who knows - maybe i am doing something wrong on my site?

i.e. i would like to know how you could see the exact frequencies by using arc?
the graphs shown on arc are very rough-textured.
it's not like a real measuring tool that can show you stuff like spectral decay plots,
waterfalls and energy-time curves. i think it's amazing that you could get the perfect
measurement data by using arc only. beside that, i was amazed to read that you could
correct your problems with Auralex foam!



lol ... fuuck
#25
4th November 2008
Old 4th November 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty_123 View Post
First Post Here:

Despite the debate regarding the effectiveness of eq based room correction, I am seriously looking into either the IK ARC or KRK ergo. Has anyone got their hands on the KRK Ergo? It is supposed to be released this month. I have arranged with my music store to borrow a unit once it is available for about a week to gauge its effectiveness in my acoustically treated room.
Not sure if it 's out yet... Here's a message from a shop in the UK: Estimated delivery to you on: 26 Nov 08

It seems they keep pushing the deadline all the time, not a good sign!
BVB
#26
4th November 2008
Old 4th November 2008
  #26
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Originally Posted by lydpik View Post
Not sure if it 's out yet...
Yes, it's out. I saw one today in the shop here in Belgium.

Greets
Paul
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#27
4th November 2008
Old 4th November 2008
  #27
#28
7th November 2008
Old 7th November 2008
  #28
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I received mine yesterday, the drivers are very unstable on my MB pro running 10.5.5.
Bass freq correction really helps though, much tighter response.
BVB
#29
7th November 2008
Old 7th November 2008
  #29
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No problems here on XP Pro.
I managed to get a correction up to 96 %.

Great product !

Greetings
Paul
#30
7th November 2008
Old 7th November 2008
  #30
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I have tried it in three different rooms so far and have to tell you that I used to be against all sorts of room EQ'ing devices so far - but this little box seems to solve problems without the negative side effects :-)

Setup is easy and the room correction works great - the only thing not so great for the moment (driver v 1.00) is that it is not usable as an interface yet...

If you're looking for a nice little monitor controller with built-in RoomPerfect algorithm - this is your way to go!

cheerio
Roger
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