KRK Systems - ERGO Room Correction
#871
24th December 2011
Old 24th December 2011
  #871
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I will try calling Carlito next week

Quote:
Originally Posted by dima_ds View Post
Actually I hoped just a little that the device can go right again, as I was almost sure that some chip inside is burned. But guy from the service said it almost impossible to burn it and usually all such problems are just because of firmware mess.
Sounds like he knows his Ergo.

I have been unable to run CAL with my computer. It happened after changing to Lion from Snow Leopard. This is is an issue with 64 bit OS.
Several here say the latest drivers address this. But I have installed, removed, and reinstalled the 64 bit software from 1/19/2011 several times.
My daughter complains about borrowing her MacBook to run CAL.
#872
25th December 2011
Old 25th December 2011
  #872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panelhead View Post
Sounds like he knows his Ergo.
your truth)

I'm now experementing with most useful setup of my KRK ns10 sub under Ergo, I have crossover frequency on sub at 80Hz now.
My VXT 6 monitors has frequency response from 49 Hz (as KRK says) but I'm not sure they could be more effective than subwoofer on frequencies below 80hz.
what do you think? which crossover freq do you use guys?
and can it be good for low end to place sub not in the center between monitors but close to one of side walls?
nms
#873
25th December 2011
Old 25th December 2011
  #873
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The higher your crossover setting, the more reason to place centered between your monitors. Krk recommends that position but others recommend positioning it in a corner or at least just well off center. Nothing will properly answer your question as well as experimenting with the options yourself. If you're using REW to shoot the room as you try diff positions and settings that will give you by far the most accurate answer. You should read up on placing a sub.
#874
26th December 2011
Old 26th December 2011
  #874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dima_ds View Post
your truth)

I'm now experementing with most useful setup of my KRK ns10 sub under Ergo, I have crossover frequency on sub at 80Hz now.
My VXT 6 monitors has frequency response from 49 Hz (as KRK says) but I'm not sure they could be more effective than subwoofer on frequencies below 80hz.
what do you think? which crossover freq do you use guys?
and can it be good for low end to place sub not in the center between monitors but close to one of side walls?

I am currently using 69.8 Hz. My sub is hard right. Works fantastic. It is a long way from either monitor.
This one of the things an Ergo can solve. Without an Ergo I would prefer the sub between the monitors. Now it does not make a difference.
#875
26th December 2011
Old 26th December 2011
  #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panelhead View Post
I am currently using 69.8 Hz. My sub is hard right. Works fantastic. It is a long way from either monitor.
This one of the things an Ergo can solve. Without an Ergo I would prefer the sub between the monitors. Now it does not make a difference.
before I had ergo I placed sub hard left just in front of the big bass trap covering the corner from floor to ceiling and it was working better than in the center. Guess I should take SPL meter and play with this set up a bit more..

Do you adjust crossover frequency on ergo control panel or on the sub?
#876
26th December 2011
Old 26th December 2011
  #876
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I use the Ergo

Quote:
Originally Posted by dima_ds View Post
before I had ergo I placed sub hard left just in front of the big bass trap covering the corner from floor to ceiling and it was working better t in the center. Guess I should take SPL meter and play with this set up a bit ere more..

Do you adjust crossover frequency on ergo control panel or on the sub?
I am now trusting it is where set. Before the last month it set and CAL'd at 59.8 before that was the displayed crossover.
It does appear to be staying and not changing. I do not change this just have to remember to be consistent.
KRK/Stanton Group has new owners. Maybe they will either invest in another product, or drivers for this one in the future.

George
#877
27th December 2011
Old 27th December 2011
  #877
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one more FAQ from KRK support

Q: "I use KRK 10s sub + VXT 6 monitors + Ergo.
Sub has crossover frequency regulation but ergo also has it in control panel. So I'm not sure which crossover frequency regulator I should use in such a case - on the sub or on ergo."

A: "Yes keep the Sub to 135hz and then control it via the ERGO control panel. There is a small bug where the Ergo control panel will default to the default sub position everytime you open the ergo but that is just a visual thing the Ergo retians the last setting when the slider is moved by the mouse"
#878
3rd January 2012
Old 3rd January 2012
  #878
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New member (home audio use); a few ???s (long)

Greetings, folks!

I bought (oops, my wife bought me) one of these for Xmas. I have been looking at it since it came out, finally took the plunge.

I am using it in a decent audio system, between a McIntosh C220 tube pre and a pair of Bottlehead Paramount 300B SET tube amps (along with a powered sub) in 2.1 mode. My Triangle Titus monitors are 6' from my ears, and currently 6' apart. The sub is along the front wall (the corners of the room are 'cut' at a 45 degree angle). The room is 13'W x 23'L x 10' ceiling. My chair is 13' from the front wall (~a foot or so back from being centered in the room).

No 'real' room treatment (allowed) since it's a living/dining room , but it isn't overly live ...

There are modes at 50, 100, 200 Hz; hoping to flatten them somewhat with ERGO (and provide hopefully overall better sound thru the mids/highs that folks have mentioned). I know ERGO only works from 20-500Hz.

I hauled my iMac out to the listening room and ran some cals, listened, didn't hear much 'correction' or differences (altho my 'score' was only 14). I did the cals at less than 'desired' volume, so did another cal with I think -10dB read on the cal display. It was pretty loud (maybe louder than I like to listen, which is only about 70dB SPL or so average).

I set the crossover to 60Hz (and the dial on my sub to ... 100Hz, I think. It was at 60Hz previously, and phased using the Rives measurements previously).

I did some measurements using a RS SPL meter and Rives test tones ('corrected' in the low bass for the RS meter), using 70dB SPL as the '0dB' point at 1kHz. I'm a bit disillusioned, as these show not much difference (well, except 'worse' near 100Hz) between 'focus' and 'bypass', with the modes/'nulls' still there. I think the SPL meter was within a couple inches (at most) of the 'focus' cal mic position, and pointed forward. This process is VERY tedious, so I want to use the Room EQ Wizard to do some (hopefully easier) more comprehensive tests. Maybe even 'averaging' over a small area like JA does in Stereophile.

I expect to see a fairly flat response in focus mode ... or at least much closer than in bypass!

Maybe my measurement method is flawed ... but seems 'OK' to me. I know 70dB SPL is 10dB lower than Rives recommends, but I already freak my animals out doing it at this level ... and the +15dB tones at 50Hz are rattling things in the room. Sheesh.

I have scanned over/read all 877 posts ... haven't found a definitive answer to whether the supplied mic can be used with +48V phantom power (some folks (in other forums) say 'yes'). This response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRKService View Post
Well, The mic used with the interface is given 15v Phantom Power. It is really only made to calibrate the room.
doesn't really sound too 'authoritative' to me, since others have suggested that the mic is a Behringer ECM8000 (altho the current ERGO mic doesn't look exactly the same). The ECM8000 can be used from +15 to +48V, so ... ???

I am hoping that the mic can actually be used with a mic/USB converter (or small/inexpensive mic pre), which only supplies +48V AFAIK. Doesn't make sense to me that KRK would use a 'custom' mic that only accepts +15V and can be damaged by +48V.

The good news to my ears is that the ERGO doesn't 'mess things up' as far as imaging, resolution, etc.. The converters etc. seem pretty darn good to me, and I haven't had any of the issues the early users experienced. I am hopeful that it can do more to get a flatter response (as 'advertised').

I do want to use my wife's Windows 7 laptop from now on (for cals and Room EQ Wizard measurements), tho, so ...??? what's the latest verdict on this?

Would boosting the volume during cal to '0dB' result in a 'flatter' response? or any other tricks to get it to do so? I think one could dial in a 'flat' response manually (with an EQ), but having the phase correction (or at least non-shifting) is important as well (and the 'automatic' functionality). That's why I got the ERGO and not something else.

TIA for (friendly and informative, if possible) comments.
Attached Thumbnails
KRK Systems - ERGO Room Correction-ergo-bypass-plot-12-30-11.jpg  
#879
3rd January 2012
Old 3rd January 2012
  #879
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Ergo is only useful if used in conjunction with effective room treatment (and even then many would argue Ergo is of marginal benefit). You need to understand that time domain problems cannot be fixed solely in the frequency domain (and vice versa).

Your untreated room will have major ringing problems at modal frequencies. You will also have issues with SBIR. Despite the hype, Ergo and similar products cannot fix (or even mitigate) these problems in the absence of effective treatment and optimal positioning. There is no quick fix, but DSP can be useful for fine tuning a system once the room has already been properly treated. Without that, you are just fooling around with gear.

The content in your post seems to indicate you might be more in the 'audiophile' camp than the 'pro audio' camp, which may mean you have lots to learn about how audio really works. Read the Acoustics Primer thoroughly.

Nowadays you can buy or DIY useful room treatment quickly and inexpensively.

Sean
#880
3rd January 2012
Old 3rd January 2012
  #880
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Sean, thanks for the reply. I do understand how rooms work, basically (but will certainly read your link to make sure!). I cannot 'get away with' room treatments. I still think the ERGO should be able to EQ to pretty flat response ... or at least reduce the peaks and boost the troughs somewhat.

(I think one can certainly do that with an EQ ... but unless it's digital there are phase anomalies introduced, correct?)

Doesn't look like it's doing that ... ??? at 50 Hz, it's down 5dB, but seems to be 'introducing' problems around 100Hz. It does mitigate the trough at ~160Hz somewhat. But what about the broad region around ~700Hz? Seems like it should be able to 'flatten' this area, unless the 1024 FIR filters are all 'used up' in the lower regions ...

Gotta run, but thanks, and I'll get back to this later!
#881
3rd January 2012
Old 3rd January 2012
  #881
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OK, there are many levels to understanding room acoustics - I admit to not being totally 'up' on many aspects of it when you start 'peeling the onion'. I think I understand the part about SBIR 'nulls' (and the other issues) not being able to be mitigated with EQ in this article http://www.hifizine.com/2010/09/the-...ually-correct/.

BUT ... it still seems to me that modal peaks should be able to be EQ'd out. If the energy is attenuated at the source, it shouldn't excite those room modes as much.
Behringer Ultracurve Pro 8024 Digital Equaliser by Thorsten Loesch
Behringer's Ultimate Tone Control Ultra High-Precision Digital 24-Bit/96 kHz EQ/RTA Mastering Equalizer Review By A. Colin Flood discuss this for the 8024 and DEQ2496 ...

AND room treatment coupled with digital room correction

IMO, the ERGO should be able to do these sorts of corrections.
#882
9th January 2012
Old 9th January 2012
  #882
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Setup, measurements with ERGO mic (and USB preamp)

News: one CAN use the ERGO mic with +48V phantom power. I used it with a USB preamp/converter and REW (what a great program!) to take measurements in (I think) the same position as I did the ERGO 'Focus' cal. Within a few inches, anyway.

I had both channels hooked up, which may 'nullify' or complicate the measurements, but I think the ERGO's correction is pretty well represented here. Seems to be limited to about 5dB of correction at any frequency, and no extreme changes as a function of frequency either ('gentle' correction, if you will). Of course, the nulls likely caused by interference effects are not affected, as expected. I will be looking more carefully at sub/sat placement and listening position to try to mitigate some of these things.

Looks to me like it's going in the correct direction, toward a flatter response, within the 'limits' imposed. I know the room has many issues, but again, this is primarily a living/dining room, and I cannot install treatment , no matter how 'benign' it may appear to the average gearhead.

This is only a single spot measurement, as well, and with REW I can actually cover a small space and do some averaging to see what happens. I don't intend to lock my head in a vise to listen to music, after all ...

(BTW, gold = 'Focus', green = 'Bypass')

I haven't even had a chance to listen to it after these measurements. I think I will be keeping it, for this and its other useful functions (I can run SPDIF directly from my Touch, bypass the preamp, etc.).

[PS: IIUC, the ERGO looks at phase, etc., and is likely 'correcting' for the separation of subwoofer (<60Hz, fed from ERGO 'B' output) and the satellites (amps fed from ERGO 'A' output), correct?]
Attached Thumbnails
KRK Systems - ERGO Room Correction-ergo-blue-bypass-gold-.jpg  
#883
11th January 2012
Old 11th January 2012
  #883
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Thanks for the insight Rick - much appreciated
#884
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autocrat View Post
KRK Systems® Releases ERGO™ Room Correction System

Just another eq to combat room modes?

i witnessed a life demo of the krk system, there was a noticeable difference after setup, to the sound that came out of the monitors, but i cannot guarantee that that sound was the way it was supposed to be..

I find it difficult to trust this. also, KRK is not necessarily known for putting lots of value on reality of sound... their speakers are all bass heavy and have little to no mids....

It might be made to just hide the flaws of their speakers?

dunno...
#885
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrospekta View Post
...It might be made to just hide the flaws of their speakers?...
I doubt that very much...the Ergo is a capable bit of kit in a treated room. Here's a review I wrote for Gearslutz: KRK Ergo - Enhanced Room Geometry Optimization
#886
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrospekta View Post
i witnessed a life demo of the krk system, there was a noticeable difference after setup, to the sound that came out of the monitors, but i cannot guarantee that that sound was the way it was supposed to be..

I find it difficult to trust this. also, KRK is not necessarily known for putting lots of value on reality of sound... their speakers are all bass heavy and have little to no mids....

It might be made to just hide the flaws of their speakers?

dunno...
That is a pretty biased and "GS logic" statement (as people trash talk KRK here a lot) - maybe you can think that if you use their cheapest budget range of speakers (rokits) in an untreated room (boomy).

Before the mass market stuff came out, KRK had a great rep and built a more boutique line of high end monitors, the Expose, which are still used by high level pros. When the budget stuff came out a lot of people choose to slag the speaker, as happens with many budget brands, as it doesn't perform to the same level as the high-end versions of the same product and it is more accessible to the masses, therefore less cool.

I use the VXT 8's which are a great speaker (mid-way up the KRK product ladder) - lots of detail, great stereo imaging and transient response. My room is treated and the Ergo takes care of the last little tweaks. I would say that in my room the VXT's have a slightly mid forward sound with a balanced top and bottom - no boom, no exaggeration. Any speaker can sound vastly better/worse more or less accurate depending on the room, position, etc, etc.

There is nothing in my monitoring holding back my mixing, I can tell you that.

I think "dunno" is the most accurate part of your post.
nms
#887
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrospekta View Post
their speakers are all bass heavy and have little to no mids....
have you even heard anything of theirs or just the cheapo rokit line? None of what you said even remotely describes the VXT6 for instance.

Anyone with a mic and software can shoot their room with and without ergo on. It's not hard to see what it's doing.
#888
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Anyone with a mic and software can shoot their room with and without ergo on. It's not hard to see what it's doing.
Looking at my pic above (unsmoothed, single-point measurement, Focus/Bypass comparison) could you comment on what you see? I know the (living/dining) room is untreated, and the sub/sats are not optimally placed to give the smoothest response.

I will be working on placement, but soundstaging/imaging take priority to me over flattest response. And, because it's a shared space, I cannot use typical room treatments. Maybe heavier curtains may be in order, tho! for damping the higher frequencies.

It looks to me that the ERGO is 'limited' (by design, apparently) to about 5dB of correction at any frequency. It looks like it's "going in the correct direction" for achieving a flatter response though.

Does this jive with your experience/measurements?

TIA, - Rick.
nms
#889
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #889
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I suppose. I'll post mine in the next few days when I get time. I always do 2 calibrations. One on A and one on B then use the best one. Your methods for calibrating do influence how good a calibration you get.
#890
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
I suppose. I'll post mine in the next few days when I get time. I always do 2 calibrations. One on A and one on B then use the best one. Your methods for calibrating do influence how good a calibration you get.
Thanks. I use A/B as satellite/sub, but I do see there's two 'slots' in memory for cals. Is there a way to choose which one it actually uses? I haven't seen that anywhere ...

Also, I did the cal at the 'recommended' volume during the procedure. Any advantage/disadvantage to doing it at, say, 10dB lower than it 'asks' for? One can 'force' it to accept about any volume setting.
nms
#891
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #891
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Yeah if you're doing a sub I think it eats up both cal slots. And no I wouldn't do it 10db lower than it recommends. You want it to excite the room sound after all.
#892
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #892
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Well, fear not, for there will always be plenty of vendors offering scam room "correction" software for those who make every excuse possible to avoid spending their hard-earned metal-box-with-blinking-lights money on proper acoustic treatment.
#893
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Yeah if you're doing a sub I think it eats up both cal slots. And no I wouldn't do it 10db lower than it recommends. You want it to excite the room sound after all.
Thanks man, I appreciate your comments. I look forward to seeing your measurements, etc., if you get a chance to post them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainchild View Post
Well, fear not, for there will always be plenty of vendors offering scam room "correction" software for those who make every excuse possible to avoid spending their hard-earned metal-box-with-blinking-lights money on proper acoustic treatment.
Look, friend, I explained that my room is a living/dining room, and I cannot have a bunch of stuff on the walls. What's your problem? I know a piece of gear like this can't replace proper treatment, I'm not asking it to do that. Gimme a break.
#894
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainchild View Post
Well, fear not, for there will always be plenty of vendors offering scam room "correction" software for those who make every excuse possible to avoid spending their hard-earned metal-box-with-blinking-lights money on proper acoustic treatment.
...but not KRK obviously. Having used the Ergo you will be aware of that, no?
#895
13th January 2012
Old 13th January 2012
  #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainchild View Post
Well, fear not, for there will always be plenty of vendors offering scam room "correction" software for those who make every excuse possible to avoid spending their hard-earned metal-box-with-blinking-lights money on proper acoustic treatment.
What about us guys who do both?

I agree - do the big work with treatment as much as possible - but the Ergo can do that final tweak you need in the low mids.

It may not jive with some people's theory, but as a professional mixer, I can tell you that pragmatically it works....

BTW - could you please be a little more insulting to room eq users - GS hasn't had enough nasty comments and low level discourse lately.

#896
15th January 2012
Old 15th January 2012
  #896
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The system is indeed sounding very very good. More clarity overall, no reduction in soundstage depth (in fact, maybe in increase, since there is more detail apparent).

I am happy with the results, and that's all that matters ...
#897
15th January 2012
Old 15th January 2012
  #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick58 View Post
Thanks man, I appreciate your comments. I look forward to seeing your measurements, etc., if you get a chance to post them.

Look, friend, I explained that my room is a living/dining room, and I cannot have a bunch of stuff on the walls. What's your problem? I know a piece of gear like this can't replace proper treatment, I'm not asking it to do that. Gimme a break.
Yet you ARE persisting in limiting your "analysis" to the frequency domain, when the serious issues you face are time domain ringing, followed closely by deep SBIR nulls. Have you even looked at the REW waterfalls?

You appear to be an audiophile posting on a pro audio forum. Gearslutz is not your natural habitat. You clearly do not fully understand what you are doing or the underlying physics, yet you persist in being irritated by those who point out that you simply arent getting the full picture - like many audiophiles, you seem to cherry pick what you think you understand, incorporate that into your existing prejudices and ignore what you dont understand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick58 View Post
The system is indeed sounding very very good. More clarity overall, no reduction in soundstage depth (in fact, maybe in increase, since there is more detail apparent).

I am happy with the results, and that's all that matters ...
Great - some touchy-feely audiophile terms (yet you didnt mention "resolution" or "articulation") and a declaration that all is well, despite what appears to be HUGE ringing at 48Hz....

Once again: DSP room correction is only useful in rooms where ringing and SBIR have already been mitigated sufficiently to prevent the DSP from attempting to correct problems it cannot correct. In the absence of mitigation, all the DSP can do is make the system sound different. Some aspects will be better, some worse.

In pro audio, we are primarily concerned with different criteria than consumer audio. Recording engineers and mix engineers need to be confident that what they are hearing is the audio, not the room anomalies. Mastering engineers need to be 100% certain that what they are hearing is the audio, not room anomalies. These are professional obligations...and the underlying science is fundamental. Audiophiles and mainstream audio consumers just want their systems to sound great, but the definition of great is nebulous and personal.

Sean
nms
#898
15th January 2012
Old 15th January 2012
  #898
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Haha.. I think you're shouting from your high horse in vain Sean. Clearly physical acoustic alterations of the room are not on the table for him and he's only looking to improve it within those restrictions. You're wrong if you think ergo won't make a difference without tackling the other issues. Of course it will. Treating the room is always going to be the best medicine, but room EQ will do its part as well.
#899
15th January 2012
Old 15th January 2012
  #899
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Thanks nms, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Sean, I do understand, much more than you think, but am not going to waste energy rebutting all your assertions. I have looked at all the REW results, and probably understand them as well as you do. I just limited my discussion to the frequency domain, since that's where the ERGO has made the most obvious difference, as far as I can tell at the moment.

I explained serveral times that I am not doing traditional room treatment and why (and that I KNOW that the ERGO cannot address various issues), yet you and some others insist on being perturbed that I am not doing room treatment. I am not irritated in the slightest, except by those like you who don't actually read what I say (several times).

I will concede the point that audiophiles and mastering engineers may have different criteria ... so what? I think I found what I was looking for in the ERGO - it made the system sound a bit better in ways I was looking to improve, and didn't muck up all the good things that I couldn't tolerate being mucked up.

I think soundstaging, imaging, clarity, etc. are valid descriptors for what makes a recording what it is. If a mastering engineer doesn't understand these things and pay attention to them, then I sure don't want to buy recordings they have worked on!

It's a free country, last time I checked, and I can read and post in 'pro audio' forums if I choose.
#900
15th January 2012
Old 15th January 2012
  #900
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Let's find the middle ground.

You make some good points Diggo - the engineer wishes to translate to many rooms whilst the consumer translates to one, but I think it's uncharitable to preclude audiophile perspectives from a thread that is specifically about the Ergo.

I know little about mastering or practical audio engineering, and even less about the audiophile perspective but it's interesting that consumers are adopting this technology and becoming aware of the importance of room acoustics, often from threads such as this. Perhaps a positive outcome of this trend would be a more navigable Katz-style Bell Curve (albeit based on reproduction environment rather than reproduction systems)?

I respect your professional knowledge and I'm not having a dig, rather having some empathy with Rick's dilemma, as a home-studio amateur (edit: myself) unable to install serious bass trapping for domestic reasons. IMO there's a great opportunity for manufacturers to produce 'domestic-friendly' bass treatment perhaps using novel nano-materials.

Whilst, like Rick, the Ergo has 'worked wonders' on the resolution of soundstage and articulation of dynamics in my room, I've taken onboard your valuable advice; also I think Rick deserves a bit of credit for providing some room analysis to further discussion of the issues us audio newbies might face.
Best, Arthur
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