How Do You Achieve That "Blue Note" Jazz Drum Sound?

[mandos]

I'm starting to record for some local avant-garde and free-jazz bands (including my own) and I wan't to get a little more colour in the recording, especially the drums. Looking back, I don't think there is a more perfected sound for recording drums in jazz than the famous "Blue Note" sound - it's crusty with a little tape saturation, heavy over-tones, high-tuned toms, boomy bass drum and a sharp attack on the cymbals. The only problem is, I have absoltuley NO idea how to achieve this sound. Is it the recording to tape? Is it the use of ribbon or tube mics? Is it the drum chambers they used back in the day?

I have enough of a budget to afford some ribbon / tube mics or buy a 4 track analog tape machine or do whatever else I need to achieve this sound, but I just need to know how you get it!

Thanks a bunch.
~Matt.

[rockrev]

There was a Tape Op issue several years ago with an engineer who recorded many of the old jazz classics . . . all the big names from the 50's & 60's. I'll probably get killed for not remembering his name, but I'm just not a huge jazz guy. Anyway, he had a lot to say - particularly about room placement, arrangement of musicians, and other technicals. If you could find that, you'd be well on your way. Tape Op sells back issues (I believe).

If you're looking for the 'Kind of Blue' sound - or something somewhat "smokey," go minimal and work from there. Ribbon mics would be a go to - as would LDC's - particularly tube LDC's. Try setting up the combo around one room mic (trying different patterns), then build from there. As for drums, a mono overhead or front-of-kit mic would be my start (with a snare and kick mic as safety). Go with clean pre's unless you have some top-notch tube pre's. Cheap tube pre's will most likely do more harm than good. Besides, you can always add more color in the mix if needed (AC1, AC2, Tape Head, Vinyl, etc.).

My .02.

David J.

BTW - To me, vibe and feel, performance and environment (room), make a good jazz record. A stellar performance captured in a cool place using a cheap tape deck will sound 10x better than some of the best "studio" jazz recordings. There's too many polished, void of emotion, lifeless crap instrumental recordings out there that are labeled "jazz." If you've got the vibe, you've got a record.

[layez]

hey Matt,

I figured id bite for the free jazz musician, love me some freejazz. How much experience do you have recording? What are you using to record right now?

If I remember correctly, they used a 2-3 mic technique. 2 overheads and maybe a kick, but I cant remember offhand. But honestly, I wouldnt even shoot for that sound. First off, the musicians were top notch (and that's not saying anything about you or your band). Additionally, the equipment they were using for those old records cant be copied. Im sure you cant afford old tape reals and the old consoles they used, not to mention the experience those engineers had (most important). That said, id recommend just going for a good sound. The modern recording medium simply wont allow to achieve that sound but that doesnt mean you have to make your record sound like smooth jazz. Ribbon mics and tube mics would be a good start, a good tube preamp probably couldnt hurt either. Maybe a pair of Oktava ribbons for overheads? You will have to experiment a lot.

I can think of plenty of modern free jazz records that I think sound great. I wouldnt get to hung up on going for that sound, you might be too overwhelmed and hindered creatively. I hate to say it, but 'that was then and this is now'. Many of us love and adore that sound, trust me because i am a total romantic about that sound, but dont set yourself up to be dissapointed. You wont get that sound but you can certainly make a great sounding record with modern equipment. I'd love to hear the music when you produce it.

[Silver Sonya]

It helps to be Rudy Van Gelder or Teo Macero and it helps to be recording Max Roach or Jimmy Cobb.

All kidding aside, I agree with the general tenor of the posts before this one, but I will add one point. I discourage you from pursuing a slavish or devotional approximation of the Blue Note sound; I encourage you to be inspired by the general spirit. Don't worry so much about trying to approximate the "dusty" or "tape-y" characteristics of older recordings. Focus on the fundamentals: simple microphone techniques (if I were you, I'd consider this package or something similar), a good room, a good vibe.

And, of course, most importantly, transcendant performances of brilliant musicians playing classic and innovative compositions.

--- Chad

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

It helps to be Rudy Van Gelder or Teo Macero and it helps to be recording Max Roach or Jimmy Cobb.
...[snip]
--- Chad

I'm not sure of the TOp article referred to in the second post but I would not be surprised if it was about Rudy Van Gelder, the dean of jazz recordists, a real living legend.

Chad's got the right idea, I think. You're not going to nail that exact sound but hopefully you can capture the spirit and feel.

It's a truism (tired or not) -- if you want to get a good drum sound, start with a good drummer on a good kit. From there it's more or less just a matter of not making mistakes.

[emkay]

Originally Posted by mandos

I'm starting to record for some local avant-garde and free-jazz bands (including my own) and I wan't to get a little more colour in the recording, especially the drums. Looking back, I don't think there is a more perfected sound for recording drums in jazz than the famous "Blue Note" sound - it's crusty with a little tape saturation, heavy over-tones, high-tuned toms, boomy bass drum and a sharp attack on the cymbals. The only problem is, I have absoltuley NO idea how to achieve this sound. Is it the recording to tape? Is it the use of ribbon or tube mics? Is it the drum chambers they used back in the day?

I have enough of a budget to afford some ribbon / tube mics or buy a 4 track analog tape machine or do whatever else I need to achieve this sound, but I just need to know how you get it!

Thanks a bunch.
~Matt.

Without sounding remarkably obvious, it all starts with the source. The player and his or her instrument. The location would follow thereafter, followed again by the gear and the engineer/producer.
I lived and played in TO for alot of years . Even as a "rock" musician I was aware of the healthy jazz scene there (Colonial, George's,The Senator etc.). There are probably still alot of that "old guard" around who would be a treasure trove" of info for you. I think some of the guys like Terry Clark (drums), Don Thompson (Bass,piano), Claude Ranger (drums) are still around and could be the source of useful info for you. Also I'm sure there's tons of info out there on gear and techniques used. Someone here mentioned Rudy Van Gelder. He would be a good "Google" start. All that being said, I believe if you capture the spirit you're almost there. Don't forget that the "sound" of Blue Note or Motown for that matter had more to do with the spirit of the artists on their roster. All the producers and engineers had to do was capture the incredible performances as faithfully as possible....................Good luck...

[mandos]

Originally Posted by layez

hey Matt,

I figured id bite for the free jazz musician, love me some freejazz. How much experience do you have recording? What are you using to record right now?

If I remember correctly, they used a 2-3 mic technique. 2 overheads and maybe a kick, but I cant remember offhand. But honestly, I wouldnt even shoot for that sound. First off, the musicians were top notch (and that's not saying anything about you or your band). Additionally, the equipment they were using for those old records cant be copied. Im sure you cant afford old tape reals and the old consoles they used, not to mention the experience those engineers had (most important). That said, id recommend just going for a good sound. The modern recording medium simply wont allow to achieve that sound but that doesnt mean you have to make your record sound like smooth jazz. Ribbon mics and tube mics would be a good start, a good tube preamp probably couldnt hurt either. Maybe a pair of Oktava ribbons for overheads? You will have to experiment a lot.

I can think of plenty of modern free jazz records that I think sound great. I wouldnt get to hung up on going for that sound, you might be too overwhelmed and hindered creatively. I hate to say it, but 'that was then and this is now'. Many of us love and adore that sound, trust me because i am a total romantic about that sound, but dont set yourself up to be dissapointed. You wont get that sound but you can certainly make a great sounding record with modern equipment. I'd love to hear the music when you produce it.

I think that sound is part of jazz though, you can't argue that Sam River's Contours or John Coltrane's Intersteller Space wouldn't have been the same without that sound. That being said, I completely recognize that the roster of musicians is as much of that sound as the mics are, but I don't want a carbon-copy of that sound, I just wan't a little bit of nostalgia in my recordings.

While avant-garde and free-jazz of today favours the "clean" sound of modern recording, some of the my favorite modern improvisers re-create this old fashioned sound and the result is nothing but breath-taking. The EAQuartett from Italy is a perfect example - MySpace.com - EAQuartett - Bologna/Arezzo/London/Berlin - Experimental - www.myspace.com/thegrimorchestra. While obviously more classical oriented, when those drums hit you can't help but think of Tony Williams or Elvin Jones.

My experience with recording is about 5 years, but the first 2 don't really count because its all a haze of shitty punk-rock, drone and noise to cassette tape which doesn't really qualify as being "produced". I've only been seriously interested with it for 3 years now, and hopefully if I can complete my Bachelor of Music I will apply to a masters of audio engineering and maybe make this some sort of profession. That being said, I am only 18, but I have some funds and a job that has enough hours to hopefully pull through this, since this is a sound I'm pretty intent on at least somewhat recreating.

As for music I have recorded, the past few months with my new setup has been mostly incomplete takes with friends / local bands, so all I really have to boast is some stuff from a while ago. If you are interested on hereing the music I create, here are some poorly mastered myspace-quality tracks of some compositions I recorded a year ago (Not a representation of my current setup to say the least, also I shiver at my saxophone tone)
MySpace.com - Matthew Tavares - Toronto, CA - Jazz / Other / Acousmatic / Tape music - www.myspace.com/matttavares

Yes I realize I am still very much a "noob", "youngling", or whatever you call it, but hey, I am posting in the Low End Theory...

Anyway, thanks a bunch for all the recommendations, hopefully my age doesn't lead to some condescending posts. This sound may be impossible to achieve, but something a little close to it would be a start. I was considering investing in some ribbon mics anyway. Oh well, I guess I'm just hopelessly in love with that tone.

[layez]

mandos, check your PM.

[emkay]

Originally Posted by mandos

I think that sound is part of jazz though, you can't argue that Sam River's Contours or John Coltrane's Intersteller Space wouldn't have been the same without that sound. That being said, I completely recognize that the roster of musicians is as much of that sound as the mics are, but I don't want a carbon-copy of that sound, I just wan't a little bit of nostalgia in my recordings.

While avant-garde and free-jazz of today favours the "clean" sound of modern recording, some of the my favorite modern improvisers re-create this old fashioned sound and the result is nothing but breath-taking. The EAQuartett from Italy is a perfect example - MySpace.com - EAQuartett - Bologna/Arezzo/London/Berlin - Experimental - www.myspace.com/thegrimorchestra. While obviously more classical oriented, when those drums hit you can't help but think of Tony Williams or Elvin Jones.

My experience with recording is about 5 years, but the first 2 don't really count because its all a haze of shitty punk-rock, drone and noise to cassette tape which doesn't really qualify as being "produced". I've only been seriously interested with it for 3 years now, and hopefully if I can complete my Bachelor of Music I will apply to a masters of audio engineering and maybe make this some sort of profession. That being said, I am only 18, but I have some funds and a job that has enough hours to hopefully pull through this, since this is a sound I'm pretty intent on at least somewhat recreating.

As for music I have recorded, the past few months with my new setup has been mostly incomplete takes with friends / local bands, so all I really have to boast is some stuff from a while ago. If you are interested on hereing the music I create, here are some poorly mastered myspace-quality tracks of some compositions I recorded a year ago (Not a representation of my current setup to say the least, also I shiver at my saxophone tone)
MySpace.com - Matthew Tavares - Toronto, CA - Jazz / Other / Acousmatic / Tape music - www.myspace.com/matttavares

Yes I realize I am still very much a "noob", "youngling", or whatever you call it, but hey, I am posting in the Low End Theory...

Anyway, thanks a bunch for all the recommendations, hopefully my age doesn't lead to some condescending posts. This sound may be impossible to achieve, but something a little close to it would be a start. I was considering investing in some ribbon mics anyway. Oh well, I guess I'm just hopelessly in love with that tone.

Let me tell you something. If anyone discredits someone because of age or belittles them, they are either bitter or bigger fools than the foolishness of youth they accuse you of.
For my ears you just need experience and confidence. You are in possession of two valuable assets. Your Canadian humility and your talent. I should know about the Canadian humility. I'm certainly not afraid to voice my opinions wherever I go, but i schlepp my Canuck humility with me everywhere. The humility is good but it sometimes gets in the way. Everything in moderation
Keep it up, you're better than you think or perceive you are, best of luck!!......happy.....'08 and thereafter.

[ambo]

hey Matt, another Toronto improviser here. I listened to your Myspace stuff. Very nice indeed. I think that you shouldn't sweat it too much, your recordings sound very good and to me are appropriate for the kind of music, more of a mid 80's James Blood Ulmer et al sound.

If you want Elvin/Tony style drums, it's more about the instrument and tuning, at least to start. Big, thin hand hammered ride cymbals 22" or 24" Small bass drum 16" or 18" and 12"/14" toms with single ply heads tuned fairly high. You probably already know this, but that's the only way to get that sound.

Fortunately smaller kits are very much in vogue now and can be found cheap. Also if you don't want to spend $400 for a nice turkish ride, Dream cymbals a chinese company make very nice inexpensive cymbals. check out cymbalholic.com. Everyone there seems to want to sound like tony on nefertitti and there's lots of great tips on tuning etc...

As far as recording goes I defer to the folks on this site. What are you currently using to record?

[straypacket]

Originally Posted by mandos

Yes I realize I am still very much a "noob", "youngling", or whatever you call it, but hey, I am posting in the Low End Theory...

Dude, whatever - your recordings sound fantastic. The drums sound good.

Two comments (take them for what they're worth - I'm a software guy that records in my basement )

(1) Alt take - the low end of the drums is very dominant, and punches thru the rest of the mix.

(2) Untitled Unmastered - the drums could come up in the mix a bit. I liked the sound of the drums in this one especially.


What is your recording chain for the drums?

[mandos]

Originally Posted by straypacket

Dude, whatever - your recordings sound fantastic. The drums sound good.

Two comments (take them for what they're worth - I'm a software guy that records in my basement )

(1) Alt take - the low end of the drums is very dominant, and punches thru the rest of the mix.

(2) Untitled Unmastered - the drums could come up in the mix a bit. I liked the sound of the drums in this one especially.


What is your recording chain for the drums?

Alt Take is actually an alternate take (surprise) of some trio stuff I'm working on, just recorded a demo. Unfortunately my mouthpiece was cracked so I kept getting squaks, in the end I just kinda went with it and hit the alticmo notes and tried to make it dissonant as possible, but not the original intent of the song. The bass drum sound more boomy becuase it was done in my hallway - I was experimenting with moving my setup and trying to get different sounds. The mix in those were done with headphones as I had not acquired proper monitors until christmas.

My chain isn't THAT great, but here goes:

Sennheiser MD421II on Floor Tom
SM57 on Snare and High-Tom
Beta 52 on Kick Drum
SM81 on high-hat
2x Beyerdynamic small diaphragm condensers (I always forget the model number) as overheads
Blue Bluebird room mic for ambience

I have a few more 57's and MXL condensers to play with, but they don't normally touch my drum setup.

MPA Art Gold Tube Preamp
Presonus Firepod
20" iMac (Duo Core 2) with Logic Studio

I have about $1000 budget to upgrade my microphones, I've been wanting to get some chinese ribbons to play with, but I will probably first be getting uppgrades to my snare and high-tom to replace the 57s. I can extend my budget if necessary, plus I have a part-time job and almost all my university tuition saved so I can save up if necessary.

I would still like to keep the Blue Note sound in mind, but seeing as it may require a bit more of a budget than I hopped, generally advice would just be great. I'm pretty passionate about recording, so I have no qualms about investing in higher-priced gear. (Although nothing ridiculous, this is the Low End Theory of course).

[layez]

I like your compositions, very nice.

[Silver Sonya]

You're 18 and you're using Steve Reich as an avatar.

You're aces in my book.


- c

[ambo]

Sounds to me like you have drum mics covered. I'd look into condensers and or ribbons. CAD 179 is a nice LDC which can be used for many sources including drums. About $150. There are a lot of cheap ribbons out there and lots of mods available.

[audiothings]

I discourage you from pursuing a slavish or devotional approximation of the Blue Note sound; I encourage you to be inspired by the general spirit.

i agree completely... however there is something to be inspired by in the old recordings. in this context, i suggest you use no more than three mics on the drums. mono overhead, kick, and hat or around the floor tom area, pointing towards the rest of the kit. i don't believe that the drums were recorded in stereo, during the glory days of jazz. if at all possible, use only one mic or two... with the right combination of room, drummer, drum kit and mic, you'd be surprised how well a single mic can represent the kit.

[PhatStax Drums]

Haven't had time to listen yet so I shouldn't be posting yet, but couldn't resist (maybe you're out buying mics already!).

Nady RSM-2 is a good approximation of old large-ribbon mics. You have an ART MPA Gold. Use the ribbon mic(s) through that preamp, being sure to turn the input impedance up all the way (feel free to experiment, obviously, but that should provide the strongest, most detailed sound).

Then, send that drum signal through a nice compressor, anything you can get your hands on that sounds nice, that will approximate the tape and tube compression that is on a lot of those old records, like the ones with Art Blakey.

How much, and how, to compress, and what compressor, is key. Of course, if you hit some optimum condition, you may not even have to use a compressor (maybe, not likely, but that's always a nice thought, I was just reading that The Beatles "Because" was the only of their tracks (and only pop record Geoff Emerick ever did) that didn't employ compression, they did enough takes (lots and lots) that he rode the faders).

Also, Maximizers rather than or in addition to compressors may help achieve some of the RVG sound, but as people have said, the most important thing is what's going into the mic in the first place (and you know that). Good advice above on the Dream cymbals, find a web site where you can find one with good woody stick and try it out if you don't already have a nice ride and can't afford a nice K (someday I might get one but not yet).

I have to go back and see what mics you have, you may already have a good one for getting a nice, detailed drum sound without harshness such as a halfway decent-to-excellent ribbon will give you.

The CAD Trion is also a very good budget ribbon, maybe I should have recommended that over the Nady for the $$ but they will both give you good, detailed, mellow yet punchy (through the ART at least, something with high enough input impedance) mic pre.

I've always wondered what exactly Rudy Van Gelder's ROOM was like, I'm sure that is documented somewhere, although for many of us, even basic room treatment may be out, and, that's a problem, a large room with a high ceiling may almost be essential, but, as the other guys say who've already listened, work with what you have and use your artistic and common sense. I'll try and post back if I can get a chance to listen

swing on

cool thread, by the way

I would love to see a photo of Art Blakey recording anything studio done with RVG, late fifties, early sixties, to see the room and mics, but I've never seen this, will search again sometime