Help with Digi 003 Rack connections...
Old 17th December 2007
  #1
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Help with Digi 003 Rack connections...

Hi, new here. ....How's everyone?

Can you please give me some insight as to whether or not this is possible?

I know the 003 RACK has 4 mic pre's, Which I don't want to use. I have other better quality external mic pre's, that I'd like to use.

What I'd like to do is hook up 4 external hardware pieces of gear to the 003. Three of them are separate mic pre units and one Tape FX Emulation unit.

My 3 external mic pre's are a...... Liquid Channel, Neve Portico, and a Chameleon Labs.

The other is a Neve Portico external hardware Tape Emulation unit.

Can these be hooked up to the 003 Rack, as well as 2 Rode microphones so that I do no have to go behind my rack gear to constantly change connections when I want to change mic pre's and microphones?


If you wouldn't mind, could you please tell me how the connections need to be, as well as the routing configuration for this? This is another step up for me, with everything in one unit.

I'm so used to changing everything manually.

Thank You So Much!
Old 17th December 2007
  #2
BLP
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Sounds like you are a candidate for an XLR panel (not quite enough stuff for a patchbay...). You could simply connect all of the outputs from your various gear to the ins on the 003 (line ins) and the connect the inputs to those units to a rack panel housing some XLR connectors mounted on the front of your rack, allowing easy access to any preamp in your rack.

The exception would the be the tape sim. This I would connect to a line in and a line out of the 003, that way it could be used as an insert. If you want more routing flexibility than this, you will need to step up to a full-blown patchbay.

Check Markertek.com and Redco.com for parts. You should be able to find a panel on either of those.
Old 17th December 2007
  #3
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Hey Thanks BLP!

Appreciate it!
Old 17th December 2007
  #4
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The 003 Rack has 8 simultaneous balanced i/o and 4 of those are front-panel switchable from mic pres to line ins/DI's. Furthermore you can switch 2 aux in channels to Ins 7-8. This means that even without an external converter, you can have 14 different inputs hooked to the 003 simultaneously, and choose a maximum of 8 of them for simultaneous input. An external S/PDIF converter (you could use a rack effects box or anything else) will add 2 more and an external ADAT converter will add 8 more.

I have an 003 console, tons of outboard, and I have no patchbay and only manually patch e.g. compressor inserts. The 003's monitor controls free me from needing a central station or avocet. I doubt you'll need anything else if you investigate thoroughly.
Old 17th December 2007
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
The 003 Rack has 8 simultaneous balanced i/o and 4 of those are front-panel switchable from mic pres to line ins/DI's. Furthermore you can switch 2 aux in channels to Ins 7-8. This means that even without an external converter, you can have 14 different inputs hooked to the 003 simultaneously, and choose a maximum of 8 of them for simultaneous input. An external S/PDIF converter (you could use a rack effects box or anything else) will add 2 more and an external ADAT converter will add 8 more.

I have an 003 console, tons of outboard, and I have no patchbay and only manually patch e.g. compressor inserts. The 003's monitor controls free me from needing a central station or avocet. I doubt you'll need anything else if you investigate thoroughly.
Really?....peeder

so I can do with the 003? I hate the thought of a patch bay.

So how can I set up my two microphones utilizing my three external mic pre's, also integrating an external hardware tape saturation unit all going into the Digi 003 Rack and then out to a Rosetta 200 for the A/D conversion and then back into the digital SPDIF input on the Digi 003 rack and into Pro Tools?

Would you be so kind as to let me know how to do it in my setup, as I don't know about the complexities or routing.
Old 17th December 2007
  #6
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You can do everything but the Rosetta part (first you've mentioned it)...you're not being clear enough so I won't begin to guess what you're trying to do. If you want to run everything through the Rosetta then you will have to patch in and out of its i/o. If you want to skip the rosetta you can plug everything into the 003. The mics will get plugged into whatever preamp you want to use. I just have mic cables always running out of each of my preamps and I plug the mics into the appropriate cable.
Old 18th December 2007
  #7
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I definitely don't want to skip the Rosetta. It's A/D conversion sounds great.

What about this...

Plug the three pre's into analog inputs 5, 6, 7 on the 003 rack.

Plug output 1 from the 003 rack into the input of the Tape FX.

Plug the output of the tape fx into input 8 on the 003 rack.

Then take output 2 of the 003 rack to the input on the Rosetta for A/D conversion.


To record from the pre's only, just choose one of those inputs in pro tools, and use output 2 on the 003 rack into the Rosetta.

To use any pre with the tape fx unit....record the track first through a pre, then, send the recorded track through output 1 on the 003 rack to the input of the tape fx unit, and re-record it back in through input 8 on the 003 rack.

Then I only have to manually change the mic to the pre amp.

How does this sound?

Will this work?
Old 18th December 2007
  #8
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Someone else please help this poor user...s/he doesn't know what they are doing and I have no time to explain the very basics.
Old 18th December 2007
  #9
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Old 18th December 2007
  #10
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Quote:
I definitely don't want to skip the Rosetta. It's A/D conversion sounds great.

What about this...

Plug the three pre's into analog inputs 5, 6, 7 on the 003 rack.

Plug output 1 from the 003 rack into the input of the Tape FX.

Plug the output of the tape fx into input 8 on the 003 rack.

Then take output 2 of the 003 rack to the input on the Rosetta for A/D conversion.


To record from the pre's only, just choose one of those inputs in pro tools, and use output 2 on the 003 rack into the Rosetta.

To use any pre with the tape fx unit....record the track first through a pre, then, send the recorded track through output 1 on the 003 rack to the input of the tape fx unit, and re-record it back in through input 8 on the 003 rack.

Then I only have to manually change the mic to the pre amp.

How does this sound?

Will this work?
As soon as you go into the 003 you are going to be using its converters. I hope this doesn't come across as harsh, it's not meant to, but next time include everything you want to use from the beginning. Chucking in the Rosetta changes everything in a big way. To tell you the truth I'm not very familiar with either piece of equipment, but I'm pretty sure you want your preamps to go to the Rosetta, then the 003 through the digital out. If you wanna use the rosettas D/A as well, you need to go from the 003 digital out(spdif?) back to the Rosetta. Basically your first question can't be fully achieved with a Rosetta 200
Old 18th December 2007
  #11
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Thread Starter
keybeeetsss...nice music, dude! Sounds great.
Old 18th December 2007
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Companda View Post
I'm pretty sure you want your preamps to go to the Rosetta, then the 003 through the digital out. If you wanna use the rosettas D/A as well, you need to go from the 003 digital out(spdif?) back to the Rosetta.
Right, you should use the Rosetta A/D going into the 003, so a patchbay might be the way to go (unless you want to have 2 channels from your mic pres permanently going through the Rosetta). I had a fixed input scheme like this (dedicated mic pres fixed to a/d converters). Now that I integrated a patchbay into my stetup, I can freely use any mic pre flavors that I have, and can get the best possible a/d conversion going into my 003.

FWIW, I have a tricked out 003 system with an external master clock, external a/d and d/a converters ( 8 channels via lightpipe), and 2 channels (via SPDIF) with my API A2d which has supreme a/d conversion too....

Jon
Old 18th December 2007
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxy View Post
I definitely don't want to skip the Rosetta. It's A/D conversion sounds great.

What about this...

Plug the three pre's into analog inputs 5, 6, 7 on the 003 rack.

Plug output 1 from the 003 rack into the input of the Tape FX.

Plug the output of the tape fx into input 8 on the 003 rack.

Then take output 2 of the 003 rack to the input on the Rosetta for A/D conversion.


To record from the pre's only, just choose one of those inputs in pro tools, and use output 2 on the 003 rack into the Rosetta.

To use any pre with the tape fx unit....record the track first through a pre, then, send the recorded track through output 1 on the 003 rack to the input of the tape fx unit, and re-record it back in through input 8 on the 003 rack.

Then I only have to manually change the mic to the pre amp.

How does this sound?

Will this work?
Summing up some of these points from people:

If you look at a PT session, where you can insert plugins, you've also got the option for hardware inserts. You'll notice these come in stereo pairs, and inputs and outputs need to correspond.

So, for example, you can connect your Portico tape sim inputs to output 7/8, return on inputs 7/8. Then, try importing a stereo mix of a track to PT, and putting choosing "7-8" as a hardware insert. you should be able to see the track going through the Portico, and be able to process it as if the Portico was patched into the insert of an analogue board.

Now, this is going to induce a latency, since it's going out through a digital converter, and back in again. This latency will vary depending on buffer size, so you need to compensate for this. There's more than one way to do it, but I'd suggest once you have a sound you like, internally bussing the output of the processed track to a new audio track, recording the processed track, and nudging it earlier in time to line up with the unprocessed one, and then disabling the original track.

Now, with your mic pres and rosetta. Firstly, the outputs on the 003 are not mic pre outputs, they're outputs from protools. Outputs 1-2 are your main outs - they're mirrored in the outputs that feed the monitor outs (and I believe with the 003, 3-4 can be mirrored by the 2nd headphone send).

If you want to use the Rosetta with your 003, you need to connect it via SPDIF, and set the 003 to sync to it - via word clock (and then connect the WC out to 003 WC in.

Now, the downside to this approach is you lose the monitoring control of the 003. So you'll need to get a monitor controller. There's lots of examples of these, from cheap (Samson) to mid (Mackie Big Knob, Presonus central station) to expensive (Dangerous, Audient SPL I believe). You COULD just connect a pair of monitors to the Apogee outputs, but you'll lose a convenient volume control - and turning down the volume in PT is not good of course - you're losing digital resolution and affecting your final audio file. If you're using an amp and speakers, and the amp has a volume control on the front - you could get away without this.

The Rosetta only has 2 inputs. You have 3 mic pres you want to use. 3 into 2 doesn't go, so you need a patch bay of some description. An XLR bay may work for you - 16 XLR spaces in a 1U space. You could then have the 2 apogee inputs, 3 mic pre outs, and patch them as required.

One alternative is to use the digital output of the Liquid Channel as well as the Apogee. Looking at the connections on both, you could connect the Liquid channel to the co-axial SPDIF, the Rosetta to the optical, wordclock from the Apogee through the 003 to the Liquid channel, and leave things hooked up that way. Downsides to this approach is that you couldn't use the liquid channel in conjunction with the rosetta (and thus the other 2 pres) at the same time.

The third option is to connect the least important pre to one of the line inputs (4-8) of the 003. That would let you use all 3 pres at the same time (although bear in mind the liquid channel is digital, so don't try using it as part of a pair with one of the other 2 - it'll wreck the phase!).

So, you've got some choices to make here. Out of interest (and I don't mean this insultingly) but how have you ended up with some really boutique gear, when it's quite clear you're not totally sure of how to connect it all?! I mean, the tape sim - I couldn't justify spending money on that, even though I'm sure it's great...I don't think I'm a good enough engineer to warrant the expense!

hope that all helps anyway.
Old 18th December 2007
  #14
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Thread Starter
Thank You ...psycho monkey and Everyone!

psycho monkey.... you mentioned..."Now, the downside to this approach is you lose the monitoring control of the 003. So you'll need to get a monitor controller."

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I have a Central Station for monitoring.


How I ended up with this boutique gear.... well first, no offense taken at all.

I'm the first to admit that I'm an inexperienced home hobbyist that wants some great quality out of my recordings. I know that it's not cheap, but I hate doing the double expense.....buying something a little cheaper and then later on wondering how it would have been if I had gotten the better unit and then wishing that I did.

The tape unit....well....I guess iI just had to purchase the new portico pre, sinse it just came out and it was the lastest from world renouned "Mr. Neve"..........

I figured it had to be great. Also the tape fx was new as well...and all I kept
hearing as well as experiencing the cold digital chill in recordings,and hao some of these hardware tape units really warm up and give character to a sound, so.....

I decided to give it a try. It's not bad.

I had 30 days to try it, which at the time Iwas even more experienced, and figured that as I grow, I would appreciate the unit even more.

I also thought...It's a "NEVE" piece of hardware, it would probably be like an investment.

As far as knowing how to connect it all, as I had mentioned before, since it's just home hobby stuff, i'd just reach behind the rack and do it manually when I needed to change a pre.

I would maybe change pre's once every two or three recording sessions.
Old 18th December 2007
  #15
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Lost in all this discussion is the fact that one of the pre's is the Liquid Channel, which is digital.

Once you go digital, you want to stay digital.

Old 18th December 2007
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
Once you go digital, you want to stay digital.
Exactly. Any unnecessary conversion should be avoided. I have recently gone 100% digital out of my MV8800 into an 01v96 then finally into my DAW. Everything is digital across the board. Moving away from the analog outs [into digital I/O] was a HUGE step up in quality.
Old 19th December 2007
  #17
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Thread Starter
You can do analog out of the Liquid Channel if you use the line output which is what goes into the Rosetta for A/D conversion.

Then SPDIF out of the Rosetta to the SPDIF input on the 003.

If you use the...AES/EBU output of the Liquid Channel, then it's digital and the A/D conversion is done inside the Liquid Channel.
Old 19th December 2007
  #18
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Darling,

The liquid channel is doing DA conversion before its signal goes to that analog out. So you are doing a completely unnecessary DA -> analog -> AD step using the liquid channel's analog outs.

You cannot use the liquid channel without using its internal AD conversion, or at least some other AD converter prior to going into it. (I don't know how it works actually as I think it's somewhat of a gag product...never tried it though...but you at least can't use the modelling in it without going through an AD conversion.)

Do not use the analog outs of the liquid channel, other than for e.g. monitoring in the analog domain.

Someone has to sit you down and give you a good education in how these things all work.
Old 19th December 2007
  #19
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
Darling,

The liquid channel is doing DA conversion before its signal goes to that analog out. So you are doing a completely unnecessary DA -> analog -> AD step using the liquid channel's analog outs.

You cannot use the liquid channel without using its internal AD conversion, or at least some other AD converter prior to going into it. (I don't know how it works actually as I think it's somewhat of a gag product...never tried it though...but you at least can't use the modelling in it without going through an AD conversion.)

Do not use the analog outs of the liquid channel, other than for e.g. monitoring in the analog domain.

Someone has to sit you down and give you a good education in how these things all work.
Hey peeder....this is straight from the dude's at Focusrite.

The Liquid Channel functions as a regular mic pre and does not do A/D conversion with the analog outputs.

If you use the mic input selection its analog routing.

If you select the line in input with the AES output it does the A to D conversion.

It only does A/D conversion using the line input with the AES/EBU digital outputs.

These are Focusrite's words.
Old 19th December 2007
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxy View Post
Hey peeder....this is straight from the dude's at Focusrite.

The Liquid Channel functions as a regular mic pre and does not do A/D conversion with the analog outputs.

It only does A/D conversion using the AES/EBU digital outputs.

These are Focusrite's words.
These are the words of one "dude at Focusrite" who might be a recent hire who knows less than you do.

The operating principle of the convolution processing is in the digital domain, and so there must be an AD process inside even connected A to A. It is possible (as potentially illustrated by the bricasti M7...I haven't examined that issue though) that A to A connection may be superior to A to D connection (because of optimized internal sample rates) but I have doubts about that in this case.

I don't know enough about the rosetta and the liquid channel to give you definitive advice, but I will note the 003 only has ADAT (non-SMUX) and S/PDIF inputs. You can adapt short runs of AES to Spdif with a simple XLR to RCA coax adapter (e.g. Hosa). If your rosetta outputs ADAT you can have them all connected for simultaneous input at 44.1 or 48 KHz (but not 96...you have to choose one or the other digital input for 88.2/96 on the 003, a mistake in the design).
Old 19th December 2007
  #21
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Thread Starter
Well peeder....I'm thinking of possibly doing this as per the various helpful advice you all have given me.

I'm thinking maybe my best bet is to take two mic pres, run them into the analog inputs of the Rosetta, keep going SPDIF out of the Rosetta, as I've been doing right along and record which ever pre I desire to the S/PDIF inputs on the 003 into Pro Tools.


The other thing I thought, which was suggested, would be to take a recorded track in Pro Tools, output it to the Portico tape fx unit through one of the 8 outputs, when I want to have that sound, then take the output of the Tape fx unit to any input, 5-8 on the 003 rack andrecord it back into Pro Tools onto another track.

But...I also still didn't rule out the patchbay.
Old 19th December 2007
  #22
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You'll find it easier to use the same numbered output as input when doing a hardware insert...that's how it was intended to be set up.
Old 19th December 2007
  #23
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Thread Starter
great, thanks!
Old 24th October 2012
  #24
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very similar please help!!

i want to send aes to digital outs(via spdif out) and send SPDIF to my analog outs to my central station the spdif in and out are connected to my 003 factory running protools 9. i held in the sample rate button and made sure optical output format was changed from s/mux to s/pdif
i cannot get R200 to send its digital outs through spdif into 003 factory and send spdif input from 003 factory to analog outs

session at 44.1 hz, the liquid channel the rosetta 200 and the 003 factory are all clocked to the big ben. under hardware setup i have the 003 clocked to word clock.

here is my signal chain. protools 9
neuman u87mic>mic input of focusrite liquid channel where it is converted to digital(mandatory)>AES output(only digital out option) from liquid channel into rosetta 200 aes input>spdif coaxial cable out on rosetta via spdif out on back of hardware(sp coax is sent to my digital out on front via button) into spdif in on 003 factory back of hardware into protools daw>spdif out 003 hardware into spdif in rosetta 200 back of hardware>convert signal to analogue and send out analog outs of rosetta 200(sp coax to analog outs button on front of rosetta) to central station>to monitors

in protools
under setup>hardware> under the 003 its gives you your optical setting. when i put this on adat it allows me to record (gets an input signal when i chose spdif on a track input)and i get a signal into protools but receive no signal out of the spdif 003 into the rosetta 200(the rosetta gets a no signal from the 003 coaxial cable) to send to the rosettas analog outs. when i put the protools 003 optical setting on S/PDIF rosetta gets a signal via spdif sent to analog outs on rosetta and i can hear a track on my speakers from rosettas analog outputs but i cannot record or get data or a signal into protools from spdif input selection on a track(no data is received to record).
basically when the optical setting under hardware is on adat i can get data into the 003/protools but not out of the 003 into the rosetta to send to the rosettas analog outs. when its on spdif i can get signal data out of protools/003 and into the rosetta but no signal into 003/protools from rosettas digital outs. in both cirumstances both interfaces are slaved to the big ben

so i know both pathways are good i just cant get them to work simultainiously

i just need a way to get protools/003 track to receive input spdif data signal from the rosetta and get protools/003 to output via spdif too..so i can hear an entire mix and also record vocals. is it possible. also i have the focusrite liquid channel which i need to send a digital signal from into this system. i figure ill use aes out of liquid into the aes input on rosetta 200 and send into protools via spdif into 003

thank you so much in advance

Last edited by bigpapajk; 25th October 2012 at 06:38 AM.. Reason: better explanation
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