High-end quality, low end gear

[wannaberocker]

I was begining to wonder if high end results could EVEN BE ACHIEVED with low end gear or am i fooling myself by thinking that api, 002 rack, ptle, waves plug-ins, could give me ...say.... the sound of a stone sour or theory of a dead man or nickleback album (drum wise).......( and i realize the source material is a huge part). But come on...do these high profile tracking engineers get substatialy better tracks, or do the tracks they record tracks that sound low-fi with occasional clipping and timing issues, with uneven playing dynamics (like mine always are). i am thinking that maybe i should use the mix wizard board till i get real artists to work with, because high end gear wont make crap sound good in my opinion. Also wondering how the heck ME get stuff to sound so damn good while mixing, such as every thing even-sounding and clear, heck you can even clearly hear vocal and drum reverb ( alice in chains-facelift album) and it still sounds like you could ad more with out cluttering the mix. Goin crazy here

[kafka]

If you don't know the limits of your equipment already, then it probably won't help you to buy anything better. Great music is made by people who listen to their instruments, and not just own it.

Listen to the performances. Listen to the room. Obsess over the details. Very carefully make adjustments until you know for a fact that you're not going to make it sound any better with what you have. This is the secret to all good sounding music - not equipment.

[jwl]

Just do the best you can with what you have. Don't worry about whether your equipment is "good enough." Just record.

It's all about the performances at the end of the day, really. If you are using microphones, second to the performances (a distant second at that) is the room you are in, and mic technique within that room.

A great engineer can make a great recording with SM57s and a Tascam cassette 4-track. Period.

Even consumer-level gear these days is "good enough" to make great recordings, provided your engineering chops are up to snuff and you have good performances. When I listen to a recording, I am very rarely thinking "man that mic preamp sucks," though I OFTEN think "man that performance sucks" or "how the hell did the engineer mic this, it sounds horrid."

[Acoustic Cloud]

Originally Posted by jwl

Just do the best you can with what you have. Don't worry about whether your equipment is "good enough." Just record.

It's all about the performances at the end of the day, really. If you are using microphones, second to the performances (a distant second at that) is the room you are in, and mic technique within that room.

A great engineer can make a great recording with SM57s and a Tascam cassette 4-track. Period.

Even consumer-level gear these days is "good enough" to make great recordings, provided your engineering chops are up to snuff and you have good performances. When I listen to a recording, I am very rarely thinking "man that mic preamp sucks," though I OFTEN think "man that performance sucks" or "how the hell did the engineer mic this, it sounds horrid."

Exactly

Make your ears bigger, before the arsenal. Using less gear makes you work harder. Thats sometime a good thing.

[wannaberocker]

i believe what you guys are saying, my skills are not up to where i would like them to be, i guess that is why i am posting here...for guidance. Now for the tascam recorder comment.....hmmm.... sell all your ssl boards and hd rigs and reduce overhead and make a bigger profit..right? BTW not trying to be a smart-ass or anything, just joking around....good gear can enhance good source material i would like to believe. I know that my recordings could be better, but what if you don't know exactly what you like. Maybe some engineers say good enough and they don't totally like their own work either. Thanx guys i love hearin ya, Thanx a bunch!!

[Marty J]

Get yourself a copy of Hourglass by James Taylor. It was recorded on a Yamaha 02R, and it's one of the best sounding recordings I've ever heard. It's definitely talent that determines the quality of a recording first and foremost, not the equipment.

[miqer]

anyone in holland wanna buy my 02r?

real cheap too...

I love james taylor though... got a martin just like him. That one is not for sale.

m.

[EstateMatt]

one day you'll wake up and say: all my mixes lack THIS. and when that happens, you'll go through an experience which is similar to figuring out which food you ate yesterday gave you stomach problems. it'll be a mixture of intuition and experience and you'll say to yourself "aha!! I use the same horrible compressor on everything" or "OF COURSE! its time for a new word clock" or "I need to learn to tune drums! and coach the drummer"

[jwl]

There's no question that premium gear makes an engineer's job easier. I'd love a Neve console, a rack of premium mic pres, 32 channels of apogee converters, and a $50k mic collection, not to mention a $250,000 budget to build the room(s) of my dreams.....

Obviously, right....? this is gearslutz after all.... LOL

And I agree that if you are using high end gear you have the potential to make better recordings. But I do believe that's the LAST link in the chain. You have to have your engineering chops and your rooms up to snuff first.

Great gear + bad engineering + bad performances = bad recordings.

Pro-sumer level gear + Great engineering + Great performances = great recordings.

Great gear + Great engineering + Great performances = world-class recordings.

Pretty straightforward.

Again, it all comes down to, do the best you can with what you have. Practice, read a lot, get better. LISTEN.

[mdme_sadie]

Talent, skill, ability. There's no make top ten hit button, but practice practice practice will get you there quicker than gear gear gear (sorry for the blasphemy on gearslutz.com). After all the difference between the low and the high end is simply fidelity and flexibility.

Be positive, the fact that you can see there's something wrong means you're developing a critical ear, critical analysis will follow. Just work on emulating the stuff that you like, even down to just creating the sound of one instrument, one chord, one tiny part of a song, one progression... you don't need to do the whole song. The more you practice, the better you will get.

[wannaberocker]

Thanx for the advice, my credit cards are sighing with relief, i want to use and get great with the gear i have. But sometimes i think i am doing well and then i listen to pro stuff and my recordings just don't have that big full sound..... it is hard to explain... maybe like being out of focus and you can't see the fine lines, i also think my mixes sound crowded, but i am only doing a drum kit 1 bass track and two guitar tracks, one vox, and very little effects. As far as effects go i can never seem to get them to stand out like they get buried in the schmotz of chaos.

[wannaberocker]

I would like to....gulp... post one of my pathetic mixes for listening displeasure so i can be told to hang it up.....LOL, seriously though i work mostly with amatuers (myself included) and am always rushed on projects and never get good ching for my engineering and most of their gear (and mine) is less than ideal, but i don't know if i am on the right track, maybe there is a simple fact that i am over looking that make my mixes sound mushy, besides the players. I realize there are things that i can do but i don't know what they are yet.

[mdme_sadie]

You should go ahead and post then . You don't need to ask anyones permission. No point being shy, if there's one place on the web that you might get some good feedback and help it's probably gonna be here.

[wannaberocker]

i would but i have absolutly no idea how to post a mix

[wannaberocker]

Originally Posted by kafka

If you don't know the limits of your equipment already, then it probably won't help you to buy anything better. Great music is made by people who listen to their instruments, and not just own it.

Listen to the performances. Listen to the room. Obsess over the details. Very carefully make adjustments until you know for a fact that you're not going to make it sound any better with what you have. This is the secret to all good sounding music - not equipment.

When would i know that i can't get this any better with what i have....let me guess, when it sounds good to me?

[johnwayne]

Ones of the biggest things that gets overlooked is room treatment. IF you're in a bad room it really doesn't matter what gear you're using. You have to be able to hear it, to make mic placement and mix decisions correctly.

[wannaberocker]

Yes... this is what i want to know more of, are there experiments that only one person can do to analyze room acoustics and apply that to how a sound source will be affected....example record a source and observe lack of clarity, impact, high freq or mudiness, reverberation and when is it to much/little, what natural room properties enhance/detract from the source. I am after crisp, clear drum tracks with little bleed through from mic to mic. i would like to track beautiful drum sounds and use as little eq or compression as possible (none at all would be great to), natural sounding.....but then maybe those natural sounds aren't ideal. ugh... will some pro AE hire me and show me all there is to know!!!!! I live in southern minnesota...LOL

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

do these high profile tracking engineers get substatialy better tracks, or do the tracks they record tracks that sound low-fi with occasional clipping and timing issues, with uneven playing dynamics (like mine always are).

Clipping, timing issues and dynamics have nothing to do with the quality of your gear though. Those are all things you can fix at any budget level. I recently re-read the really inspiring Deerhoof interview from Tapeop and the guy had a great quote about Def Leppard. He was saying that indie people always make fun of Def Leppard for spending four years making an album and obsessing over every little detail but then he realized that it's a total cop-out to do that. You can't make fun of that unless you're willing to dedicate an obsessive four years of effort to your own work. So yeah, use the gear you have. Make sure it's not clipping and re-track something if it does. Re-track until the timing is right and if you can't get it right then edit until there are no more timing issues. If the dynamics are uneven and you can't afford a compressor, then automate the volume note by note or punch in to replace particularly weak notes. Buying expensive gear isn't going to take care of all of these issues for you.

[johnwayne]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

Yes... this is what i want to know more of, are there experiments that only one person can do to analyze room acoustics and apply that to how a sound source will be affected....example record a source and observe lack of clarity, impact, high freq or mudiness, reverberation and when is it to much/little, what natural room properties enhance/detract from the source. I am after crisp, clear drum tracks with little bleed through from mic to mic. i would like to track beautiful drum sounds and use as little eq or compression as possible (none at all would be great to), natural sounding.....but then maybe those natural sounds aren't ideal. ugh... will some pro AE hire me and show me all there is to know!!!!! I live in southern minnesota...LOL

If you're tracking drums in a small room, you're gonna need many bass traps. You also want to have a cloud of 703 floating from the ceiling above where the overheads will be.

IMO compression and EQ are key to mixing drums, unless you have a great room, with great gear, and a great drummer. Even then subtractive EQ can do wonders to even things out.

Start with 2 overheads and make them sound as good as you can, now add a Kick and move it around till it sounds like you like, and then add a snare mic and do the same. Knowing how to hear phase is key when micing th overheads. You'll also want to flip the phase of the kick and snare to see if it's better. You really gotta know the sound you're going for, or you'll never be able to get the tracks you want. This only comes from experience, and you never stop learning. So go mic up the drums and record! It will only get better. Also flip every switch, and turn every knob all the way. You never know what may sound good.

[skopje]

I got really obsessed with the Merz "Loveheart" album. I thought it was the most amazing sounding record i'd heard in years. Then i remembered that there was a future music article about how it was recorded. I ordered it and a few weeks later it arrived.

This amazing album was recorded with an octava mic, and an audio technica basic mic, using the preamps on a digi 001 or 002.

I sat there looked at my gear which is vastly superior and felt humbled. Check out that album to see how far you can take your 001 or 002

stephen

[kafka]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

When would i know that i can't get this any better with what i have....let me guess, when it sounds good to me?

No, when it sounds good to everyone except you.

[macmod]

[QUOTE=snip Think of it like this: if Metallica's ESP guitars went missing before they put on a show, and all they had laying around were some crappy Squier knockoffs, would they cancel the show over it? snip[/QUOTE]

I think they would


cheers,
Macmod

[jwl]

Metallica would blame people who downloaded their music.

[Blake Minaker]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

I was begining to wonder if high end results could EVEN BE ACHIEVED with low end gear or am i fooling myself by thinking that api, 002 rack, ptle, waves plug-ins, could give me ...say.... the sound of a stone sour or theory of a dead man or nickleback album (drum wise).......( and i realize the source material is a huge part). But come on...do these high profile tracking engineers get substatialy better tracks, or do the tracks they record tracks that sound low-fi with occasional clipping and timing issues, with uneven playing dynamics (like mine always are). i am thinking that maybe i should use the mix wizard board till i get real artists to work with, because high end gear wont make crap sound good in my opinion. Also wondering how the heck ME get stuff to sound so damn good while mixing, such as every thing even-sounding and clear, heck you can even clearly hear vocal and drum reverb ( alice in chains-facelift album) and it still sounds like you could ad more with out cluttering the mix. Goin crazy here

I'll save you some $$$. If you want to ensure a big drum sound like the artists you are talking about, save your $$$ from gear and buy a copy of drumagog. Pretty safe to assume that Stone Sour/Th ofa DM/Nickleback all use samples in their recordings. I know Theory does for sure. Throw up some mics and trigger away

Seriously though, I am starting to appreciate drumagog and beat detective in dealing with completely apathetic clients. Some drummers just don't give a shit what their kit sounds like, won't spring for new skins, and can't/can't be bothered to play well. I have moved on from trying to teach these people that they need to play well to get the sound they want, and just have found ways to deal with it. It's actually less work to do it this way.

[6dyslexicelephnt]

get over it

why would you want to sound like those bands anyway? they are horrible

but I'll say it again

get over it

you're not going to get anywhere in recording if you think you need the best gear to make recordings that are good enough for your standards

have you heard of diminishing returns? this basically means that you can get 90% of the way to the sound of a $400,000 studio with a $25,000 studio as long as you spend your money wisely and do a good job engineering. Nothing will compare to a great engineer in a great studio with a great band. But there is something to be said for getting good sounds with decent gear, with a good band. It's a worthy stage to overcome at your position

[RawDepth]

I really believe that good preamps can make cleaner tracks. It' s a little like putting a high-end lens on a camera. Suddenly everything is seen in a little better focus, better contrast, reduced glare, and more vivid colors. A good mic pre brings a certain "focus" to the track that will make it easier to position in the soundfield.

[moon_unit]

I found a really interesting thread recently over on this board:

The importance of high-end gear ... - Audio & Anarchy


It seems to cover that topic rather well.

thumbsup

[BudgetMC]

Genius can always trump gear. That's why the so much stuff professional from the 60's still sounds better than what most people crank out on their home studio google-track systems.

Of course, sometimes you just get lucky. One of the best things I ever recorded was on a Fostex 4-Track Cassette machine. And I did it all in the space of a few hours one night. Still beats me what I did right. That was WAY before I paid attention to how I was mic'ing things! It was a Zen-Brain thing, I guess.

[soupking]

I haven't read any responses to this one so this response is probably a bit non-sequitor.

But, from building my own little recording studio from scratch, my experience with squeezing quality from inexpensive gear is just to recognize crap for what it is.

If a machine works, if it passes your eardrums with an okay, then there you go.

If it buzzes, hisses, screws up something juicy that you've made, flattens a response, or just doesn't plain feel right...chances are you're looking at something that needs altering or replaced.

I'd say that kind of philosophy runs pretty close along the lines with "If you can't duct it...F*** it".

There's a lot of discussion about higher end gear, but apart from vintage repairs, odds are you won't have issues in this philosophy of "what's good", only in terms of fine tuning a sound.

Of course, high-end gear spoils everybody. It's like a $50 bottle of wine. After you drink that, everything sucks.

[wannaberocker]

[quote=Blake Minaker;1643089]I'll save you some $$$. If you want to ensure a big drum sound like the artists you are talking about, save your $$$ from gear and buy a copy of drumagog. Pretty safe to assume that Stone Sour/Th ofa DM/Nickleback all use samples in their recordings. I know Theory does for sure. Throw up some mics and trigger away

Ya know.....i will always want to believe that enginners are mixing what was actually tracked. Samples on the drums..a very neat idea BUT... that wrecks it for me kinda, ya know.... I would like to have this scenario....
"Great drum mix" "oh yeah thanx, i got that sound with this mic, xxxxx preamp and position, with ___size drum tuned about here.....not to mention the drummer rocked!" That would be great and real. It seems i should set up buckets with triggers and not even bother with mic pres, placement as well as mic choice. That to me is like a steak dinner in the form of a pill....you get the nutrients your body needs yet i didn't get to savor the juice or cut the steak and chew it and feel the tenderness....blah,blah,blah or like a tv dinner, maybe thats a bad analogy