drum tracking with api 512c

[wannaberocker]

Hello. new to the gearslutz community as well as a newb home recordist, anyway, api 512c, just got 2 them and have been experimenting with various mics and instruments... kinda like studying if you will. noticed huge improvements over my A&H mix wizard pres. This is a question concerning levels. Here is the scenario... sm57 on a snare (close mic) that i am hitting in my room just to see what happens level-wise. Result: easily hits +3 or +6 with gain knob barely raised ( if at all), now my inexperienced (sorry excuse of an AE) would think "great, plenty of signal with out cranking gain on 512c preamp" BUT problem is that now the converters ( 002) are clipping, (PTLE shows red on channel). MY Question.... what the heck this thing is so hot that i would have to pad the input or move the sm57 over a foot away to keep levels going into pro tools le manageable ( hope the drummer is even). Any similar experiences? What can i do about this? Go easy on me!

[A LaMere]

Yep.... I do think you'll have to pad the input. Which I think would be somewhat normal when recording drums wouldn't it? I believe there's a pad on the 512, though if memory serves correctly employing the pad changes the tone of the pre a bit...

I've heard some people say that they pad the output of api pre's as well... others might be able to chime in on this perhaps... if the output is padded it would allow you to turn the gain up for further saturation, though I'm not sure if that is adviseable for drum tracks... again, someone else here might know a bit more.

I do think it's possible for the 512 to have higher headroom than the oo2 inputs that you are using also... so while the 512 itself might not be clipping, the 002 is probably capable...

When tracking drums, I'd advise using at least some amount of tracking compression in order to get better levels into your 002

[mattoxxx]

pretty simple 512's need a pad on very loud sources. Use the pad on the 512 if you still need more use an inline attenuater or something like and A designs ATTY after the output of the pre.

hope this helps

Matt

[wannaberocker]

Thanx, when i pad it is all good, just wondering if that was normal.these pres rock, just shows you that you better have good source material.Now for another question. Scenario... drummer hits harder sometimes, especially snare drum, levels are not clipping ( or rather sound like they aren't) unless that one hard hit happens. some times it is many hard hits or every other hit clips....you get the idea, uh guess it is cut and paste time!!! NOT!! that sux to do all that. MY PROBLEM... i like to fill that stupid meter full of green/yellow/orange. efficiency, right? Solution...leave head room so that it doesnt clip at all, now i have a track of unclipped uneven snare hits. GOSH IF ONLY I COULD FILL THAT stupid meter with out the ocassional overages, then i wouldn't have to screw with it. HOW can i acheive this, (with out getting a drum machine)

I guess what i want to know is if there is a magic limiter that won't mess up the tone of the snare when it catches the hard hits, or should i record at low levels and raise volume of drum bus with waves L1? Is there a fool proof method that works? I wish i could work under a long-time pro AE!

[A LaMere]

eh... compression is your friend.

You should be able to leave some headroom and grab a compressor to even out those transients and still get a slamming snare track.

[wannaberocker]

any recomendations/favorites? dbx 160, 166a, fmr rnc, multicom, 1176, la3a, looking for best value and least amout of sound degradation. will you share your setup and tracking techniques?

[lowfreq33]

The other day I had some toms miked up with 414's into API's. I had to have the 18db pad in on the mics, the pad in on the pre, and the gain al the way down. Sounded great though.

[wannaberocker]

so then does all that pading on quality gear, say....api 512c with 421 make it sonically equevilant to a behringer with sm58 ( it seems to me that all the padding would reduce the characteristics that make all the cool gear worthwhile.....or maybe not, i am not sure, i never had a chance to track with the api on a full blown session yet.

[s.d.finley]

By padding the output of the API, you can crank up the gain and drive the transformer for more tranny love! So to speak....

[wannaberocker]

could a pad be substituted for say.... a dbx 166a with light compresion (or none) and output gain (on the 166a) turned down to reduce the overall level going to the converters? Would that sap the signal quality? I guess that would be like adding an atenuator would it not?

[jeronimo]

In my opinion you shouldn't go for a compressor to "pad" the input on a 512.
Go for a pad on the output or a ATTY on the output.
Since you're just "studying" please know what you can get of the source+mic+pre before you put a compressor on the chain.

[wannaberocker]

Ok... so i finaly got to use the 512's, it was a rushed 3 song demo done in 2 & 1/2 days for a band that wanted something for an up-coming show. What a cluster-truck that was but we finished. We would have finished sooner if they didn't practice during tracking! Anyway.... lunch box with 2 512, 2 OSA MP-1, Kick, snare and 2 toms respectively then hat through a la610 and Overheads through a behringer dual channel tube pre. then the signal was padded at the pre outputs ( the ones in the lunch box) then sent to my cheesy rack of URIE 535's. Now in the rush of things we set up mics checked levels and went for it. So as you guessed, the api/osa pres were lighting in the red....i did not pad the inputs, but i left it anyway. It actually sounded darn good for not knowing what i am doing. You can tell they are hot in solo with really hard hits but dump the mids out of the drums during mix down and they are punchy as mike tyson! Next time i want to use a better gain staging but time is of the essence, especially when you dont get paid crap. Is this a common practice when tracking with these pres? Also a very desireable side effect was that, because the pres were driven to the max, they acted as a limiter and i could confidently track high levels in with out the ocasional digital clip. The converters never overloaded once!!!!! WOW!!!! Either i am a tracking idiot (because i think the end results are great) or i have stumbled on a great secret trick while drum tracking!!! What do you guys think?! Honestly the analog overload sounds wonderful compared to digital overload.

[1/2 Normal]

If it sounds good to the client then it was a home run!

I might try those 512c pres on the OH though. I was using them on toms but wanted to catch the vibe of the kit with that API sound.

Is the 610 a solo 610?
I currently am using that for kick on my last couple of sessions. I would also not use your higher end pres on hats(not gospel but suggestion) you might be better served with them on the snare.
It seems we have similar pres my current favorite setup is as fallows.

kick- D6> solo 610> distressor> DAW
Snare - 57> GR 500NV> DAW
Toms - ATM 25> Buzz Audio> DAW
OHs - 414uls> 512c> DAW
Hats - Octava MK012> DBX 266> 003pre
Ride - Otava MK201> DBX> 003pre

I use the 266 to keep the hats from killing the converters, seems to work nice but honestly I find myself not using the hat mikes in the drum mix at all.
I have had great results with this configuration but "YMMV" and these are purely suggestions.

Good Luck
Rob

[wannaberocker]

This was my set-up
Kick- RE20-api 512c-sure a15as (attenuator)- urei 535- digi 002
Snare- sm57- api 512c- sure a15as- urei 535- digi 002
Hat- akg c451b- UA La610(bypass comp) digi-002
Tom 1- sennheisser 421- OSA mp-1- sure a15as- urei 535-002
Tom 2- sennheisser 421- OSA mp-1- sure a15as- urei 535-oo2
Oh left- sure ksm27 -Berhringer 2200- urei 535-oo2
Oh right- sure ksm27 -behringer 2200-urei 535-oo2

one disappointment.....to much cymbal bleed to 421's so i automate the mute button when toms are silent, gates never seem to be as friendly, i lose some snare sound but so what. i try to us overheads to capture kit but end up being ambient/cymbal mics instead. i think that the solid state pres are way better for transients than a tube pre. tracked and limited a little with an L1 Waves. Works for me.....so far

[Ironklad Audio]

i like to fill that stupid meter full of green/yellow/orange. efficiency, right? Solution...leave head room so that it doesnt clip at all, now i have a track of unclipped uneven snare hits. GOSH IF ONLY I COULD FILL THAT stupid meter with out the ocassional overages, then i wouldn't have to screw with it.

it's ok to not fill up all the space in the meter or track screen...it really is. in fact, the best recordings i hear are the ones that have plenty of headroom left on them.

and yea, if you really want to get the most out of the API's, get a bunch of inline pads...a while back i tracked drum through some 3124's, and ended up engaging the -10db pad on the OH's(no pad on kick/snare/tom mics), running all the mics into an inline pad, AND using the pad on the preamp itself...and the levels were still nearly hitting the red with almost no gain applied. i would've also padded the outputs of the API's to drive the pre a bit harder, but there wasn't time for that.

[ryanojohn]

I used 512Cs on a drum session on saturday. Had to keep the pad on, pretty much left all of the pre gains at 0, which hit PT at about 70%... Anything more than that would have had danger of clipping

[Lerxst]

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but does anyone have recommendations for quality inline pads?

~Lerxst

[meblumen]

Shure makes some nice inline pads or you could easily make your own with a couple of resistors wired to a cable or jack.

Also, don't automatically reach for a compressor if you are overloading your converters. Gain staging is so overlooked. 9 times out of 10 you need to pad the OUTPUT of the API's so you can really drive them without overloading the next piece in your signal chain. You pad the input when you are clipping the preamp.

[wannaberocker]

Originally Posted by Lerxst

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but does anyone have recommendations for quality inline pads?

~Lerxst

Shure A15AS are great and less than $40.00 dollarsa a unit, they are a barrel that connects in line that is descrete and easy to use, three switch-able attenuations.

[GordZilla]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

This was my set-up
Kick- RE20-api 512c-sure a15as (attenuator)- urei 535- digi 002
Snare- sm57- api 512c- sure a15as- urei 535- digi 002
Hat- akg c451b- UA La610(bypass comp) digi-002
Tom 1- sennheisser 421- OSA mp-1- sure a15as- urei 535-002
Tom 2- sennheisser 421- OSA mp-1- sure a15as- urei 535-oo2
Oh left- sure ksm27 -Berhringer 2200- urei 535-oo2
Oh right- sure ksm27 -behringer 2200-urei 535-oo2

one disappointment.....to much cymbal bleed to 421's so i automate the mute button when toms are silent, gates never seem to be as friendly, i lose some snare sound but so what. i try to us overheads to capture kit but end up being ambient/cymbal mics instead. i think that the solid state pres are way better for transients than a tube pre. tracked and limited a little with an L1 Waves. Works for me.....so far

Hmmmm... Myself, I would wanna use my best pres for the overheads.

Have you tried, say, using your APIs for overheads.. and then the mp-1s for the snare and kick... and the 2200 for the toms?

Just a thought.

Regards

[Lerxst]

Originally Posted by meblumen

Shure makes some nice inline pads or you could easily make your own with a couple of resistors wired to a cable or jack.

Also, don't automatically reach for a compressor if you are overloading your converters. Gain staging is so overlooked. 9 times out of 10 you need to pad the OUTPUT of the API's so you can really drive them without overloading the next piece in your signal chain. You pad the input when you are clipping the preamp.

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

Shure A15AS are great and less than $40.00 dollarsa a unit, they are a barrel that connects in line that is descrete and easy to use, three switch-able attenuations.

Thanks guys! I'll check them out....


Now returning to your regularly scheduled program..........

~Lerxst

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by wannaberocker

I guess what i want to know is if there is a magic limiter that won't mess up the tone of the snare when it catches the hard hits, or should i record at low levels and raise volume of drum bus with waves L1? Is there a fool proof method that works? I wish i could work under a long-time pro AE!

Don't use a limiter to track a snare...set the level so you never clip...you can even out the hits later...one thing you can do is put all the really hard hits on there own track and turn that track down as well you can use compression...maybe a couple of stages....don't clip anything digitally when recording especially the snare. Good luck.

Nick

[drumzealot]

I use the Shure pads on the API 512 outputs. Love those things.

[straypacket]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

I use the Shure pads on the API 512 outputs. Love those things.

On the outputs? That works?

[Jim Roberts]

Originally Posted by straypacket

On the outputs? That works?

I use the Shure pads on the inputs of the 512c.

[drumzealot]

Originally Posted by straypacket

On the outputs? That works?

Yes. You can push the pres more without cliping your converters. Do a search for "tranny love" and you'll find more info.

[wannaberocker]

Originally Posted by GordZilla

Hmmmm... Myself, I would wanna use my best pres for the overheads.

Have you tried, say, using your APIs for overheads.. and then the mp-1s for the snare and kick... and the 2200 for the toms?

Just a thought.

Regards

Why does every one say to use the best pres for the overheads?! Wouldn't you wan't the best close-mic chain as possible? Aren't modern drums close miced and the sound of the overheads just adds a little ambeince and stereo imaging?

[s.d.finley]

Originally Posted by Jim Roberts

I use the Shure pads on the inputs of the 512c.

Why? Doesnt your API have a PAD built in? For the input...unless you want -30db pad...

Hell, if the mic has a pad, use that too!

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by s.d.finley

Why? Doesnt your API have a PAD built in? For the input...unless you want -30db pad...

Hell, if the mic has a pad, use that too!

padding the input on a API doesn't sound the same as padding the output...

[Grumblefoot]

Anyone else frightened by the prospect of doing a search for "Tranny Love"?

Thank you I'll be here all week.