Recording guitars...control room upstairs, amps downstairs

[Myriad_Rocker]

I tried to track guitars last night but I was having some issues that I just couldn't get past. It was just a pain in the ass!

I was downstairs controlling the DAW with my Tranzport and using a pair of Audio Technica closed back headphones via a Pro Co snake that is connected to a headphone amp upstairs. I had a hard time because when putting on the headphones, all I could hear of my playing was low end flub. So I really couldn't monitor what I'm doing. It made it pretty difficult to keep with the metronome and what not.

I tried piping some of my guitar that I was playing through the headphones but because I was still in the same room as the cab, the low end from the cab, because of having closed back headphones on, was overpowering the mix going to the phones.

So...is there a way that I can play upstairs and monitor where the cab is NOT?

I'm sure there's a "Captain Obvious" solution but in my frustration and disappointment, I haven't realized it.

[Farout]

Why don't you just set your amp head next to your DAW, then run an extended cable from the head --> to the cab, then mic the cab ..... then you can control the amp while sitting in front of your DAW.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by Farout

Why don't you just set your amp head next to your DAW, then run an extended cable from the head --> to the cab, then mic the cab ..... then you can control the amp while sitting in front of your DAW.

I don't have a speaker cable that's long enough for that.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

So...is there a way that I can play upstairs and monitor where the cab is NOT?

FWIW, here's how I do it:

- First set up the amp and dial in a reasonably good sound, set up the mic(s) and preamp(s) like you normally would.

- Find a pedal that lets you do loops, the Line6 DL4 for example or a Boomerang if you want to get fancy. Play a portion of the part you'll want to record and loop it. Make sure that the looped part is atthe same volume as your playing.

- Go down to the basement and listen to the amp that now plays the looped part and adjust the amp and mic(s) till you get the best sound. You might need to have your headphone volume pretty high but it will only be for a short while, unlike when you're performing in the room itself.

Go back to your control room and listen to the sound thru the monitors, adjust the preamps, change amps, mics, etc if necessary. The good thing about this loop technique is that you could A/B two or more mics while the loop is unchanged. I usually get good results pretty fast that way.

- Get a Little Labs STD cable extender, yes you can afford it! This little device is GREAT and you can use your XLR snake to extend the guitar cable. Most importantly, the sound is great, much better than using a long passive guitar cable.

Now play your part in the control room and do the tracking.

I tried tracking guitars in the live room on my own and it was a massive PITA just like you described: no control, muddy sound, incredibly loud headphone levels that resulted in serious ear and body fatigue.....it doesn't work, period.

Playing in the control room lets you hear things in context and will give you much better results and comfort.

Good luck!

[Mike Tholen]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

I don't have a speaker cable that's long enough for that.

You should really buy a long cable so you can sit in front of your monitors...headphones are the devil.

It'll make ALL the difference in the world my friend.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

I don't have a speaker cable that's long enough for that.

Make one.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by octatonic

Make one.

I suck balls at soldering.

Originally Posted by doorknocker

- Get a Little Labs STD cable extender, yes you can afford it! This little device is GREAT and you can use your XLR snake to extend the guitar cable. Most importantly, the sound is great, much better than using a long passive guitar cable.

Believe it or not, I had already thought of that exact same thing. I'm pretty familiar with the Little Labs stuff. I have a RedEye that I use as a DI/Reamp box. The reason I didn't go any farther with it is because I didn't think using the XLR snake to run my guitar through would work. I didn't know if the wiring in the snake was the right kind or whatever. And I thought it might sound crappy, too. But maybe I was wrong. I'm talking about using the LL STD in conjuction with the snake.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

The reason I didn't go any farther with it is because I didn't think using the XLR snake to run my guitar through would work. I didn't know if the wiring in the snake was the right kind or whatever. And I thought it might sound crappy, too. But maybe I was wrong. I'm talking about using the LL STD in conjuction with the snake.

The STD sounds great. Believe it or not but I even us it for bass players that go DI in the control room i.e where a short cable would do.

The very idea of the STD is to use it along with mic cables/snakes.

You might also use some kind of buffer amp (I have a Z.Vex Super Hard-On) for long cables but the STD is even better for that purpose and also lets you split the signal to two amps.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Okay, I have two possible options, I guess.

1) Get the Little Labs STD and plug my guitar into that and the STD into the snake. This runs my guitar signal down a 100ft Pro Co snake and to the amp.

2) Get a really long speaker cab cable. But what kind? I think I need about 60 to 70 feet. I MIGHT get by with 50 feet. I think 12 gauge would be best. But, which brand? Would Horizon work well? Or would something like Planet Waves or Monster be better? Or am I just paying for the name?

[Myriad_Rocker]

Of those two, what do you guys think is the best? Or are there other options?

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

I suck balls at soldering.


Believe it or not, I had already thought of that exact same thing. I'm pretty familiar with the Little Labs stuff. I have a RedEye that I use as a DI/Reamp box. The reason I didn't go any farther with it is because I didn't think using the XLR snake to run my guitar through would work. I didn't know if the wiring in the snake was the right kind or whatever. And I thought it might sound crappy, too. But maybe I was wrong. I'm talking about using the LL STD in conjuction with the snake.

This is dumb, go buy a long 12 gauge speaker cable. You want to keep the head in the control room anyway so you can tweak the sound as you're hearing it from your monitors

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

I suck balls at soldering.

Well it is a pretty essential skill if you are working in a studio, it is a good thing to learn and it isn't very hard (compared to playing an instrument or being able to mix).
It will save you tens of thousands over the life of your studio.

Have someone make you one.
You can have very long speaker cable runs with no signal loss compared to instrument cable.

[BrettPortzer]

I used to have a 100' run of 12 gauge speaker cable that I tried using whole, before I cut it down into shorter runs... And it was totally unusable, it changed the sound of the guitar so much.

It basically lopped off the top and bottom end of the guitar sound.

Since then, I try to stay away from too long a run of speaker cable in this application.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

This is dumb, go buy a long 12 gauge speaker cable. You want to keep the head in the control room anyway so you can tweak the sound as you're hearing it from your monitors

Does the brand matter? I mean, I know cable is cable is cable. But...you know...there's a big price difference between some brands.

Originally Posted by BrettPortzer

I used to have a 100' run of 12 gauge speaker cable that I tried using whole, before I cut it down into shorter runs... And it was totally unusable, it changed the sound of the guitar so much.

It basically lopped off the top and bottom end of the guitar sound.

Since then, I try to stay away from too long a run of speaker cable in this application.

If it's so bad and hurts the sound so much then why do so many out there do long speaker cable runs from the control room to a cab in a live room/iso booth?

Just asking...

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

If it's so bad and hurts the sound so much then why do so many out there do long speaker cable runs from the control room to a cab in a live room/iso booth?

Just asking...

100' is pretty long.
I have used 50' with no real loss.
Can't remember the gauge but it was pretty thick.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by octatonic

100' is pretty long.
I have used 50' with no real loss.
Can't remember the gauge but it was pretty thick.

I doubt 50' would work now that I think about it. In the 100' snake that I'm using, there's probably only 20' to 25' of slack.

[smy1]

Why don't you just record the signal direct (with a guitarsimulator plugin) and then reamp it later?

[BrettPortzer]

You know, I don't really know... But, I had everything set up the same during a guitar recording, and I tried moving the head into the control room and ran all this speaker cable, and it really sounded different. Definitely couldn't punch in. Switched it back and it was fine.

So, I just don't do it anymore!

Originally Posted by Myriad_Rocker

Does the brand matter? I mean, I know cable is cable is cable. But...you know...there's a big price difference between some brands.


If it's so bad and hurts the sound so much then why do so many out there do long speaker cable runs from the control room to a cab in a live room/iso booth?

Just asking...

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by BrettPortzer

You know, I don't really know... But, I had everything set up the same during a guitar recording, and I tried moving the head into the control room and ran all this speaker cable, and it really sounded different. Definitely couldn't punch in. Switched it back and it was fine.

So, I just don't do it anymore!

Hmmm.... I don't know how you were doing it, but as far as the physics of it are concerned, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Myriad_Rocker]

Originally Posted by smy1

Why don't you just record the signal direct (with a guitarsimulator plugin) and then reamp it later?

Because the reaction between a real guitar and a real amp is different than any plugin can provide.

[donsolo]

I personally think you could (if you already have a reamp box)
is to run your guitar clean through a mild preamp, and then monitor out to the amp downstairs. Adds an extra output but then you already have a snake dropped and it sounds like you already have a reamp box.

You could even record the clean track for reamping later as well.

As far as changing the reaction, I don't think it'll change much more than any of the other options (IE running long cable, Di then Reamp box, etc.

I'd be more inclined towards the Head in the control room approach though.

Kinda sucks that your situation makes your live room so far away...