I need some Mic and Pre advice

[drBill]

Wait......and save your money until you have around $2-3k to spend. Then you can move up substantially from where you are at. If you truly want to take a significant step up from where you are, you're going to need more than $1000. Otherwise there are about 1000 choices that can give you a lateral or slightly better step up. I'm sure many will chime in with some of them, but my suggestion is to wait.

[Grumblefoot]

How bout this 2 for 1.....
JOEMEEK TWINQ joe meek twin q FREE AUDIO TECHNICAT3035 - (eBay item 290174014785 end time Nov-02-07 15:39:41 PDT)

[shuffle01]

If your planning on building this 'studio' continuously over time it can be a good choice to always go that step ahead and get the better gear - wait longer between purchases.

That way in a few years you have a stock pile of gear that you use and sounds good.

In saying that i bought a RNC the other day - and have no great pre's yet. I guess i took the path of wanting to get experience with using outboard gear and setting up a studio.

[Ray Sr.]

AT4050->RNP->RNC
Sounds good for your budget. Honestly, you could end up saving forever. There's always better or Different sounding stuff out there. Those pieces of gear can be used forever. As you grow you'll get more gear for the flavor. There are pro studios here in town that use those exact pieces of gear. Good luck.

[bcab17]

Thanks for the input folks. It's funny. I just read an article in which the writer thought it would be better for a home recording studio to get three different sounding $200 mics rather than one $600 mic.

Then I read another article regarding the idea that moving up from a $100 to a $500 mic preamp normally results in very marginal improvement, and that a $1000+ seems to be the threshold for substantial improvement for mic pres.

I don't know...since I don't have any aspirations of turning my little home studio into a pro shop, I'll probably go the economical route. I really could use a good second mic, so now I'll have to decise if a $500 AT4050 is the way to go or if a $200 CAD M-179 would be a better fit.

[layez]

the 1NV will get you really stellar results, just do a search and you will see tons of threads which support this notion. Especially in comparison to your current preamp, you wont ever look back. You don't have to save 2 or 3 grand for a good pre, plenty of people here will back the 1NV as being just as frequently used as more expensive preamps - trust me when i say that unless you are planning to start a pro studio you will not outgrow that pre. You will probably want a different flavor eventually though.

However, i have heard that the RNP is a really great preamp for the price so that might be good for you. I can assure you that it will also kill your ART. I have the 1NV and the RNC and like both. I also have an older Symetrix comp and think it has a sound to it while the RNC is very transparent so it might be worth it for you.

hope this helps, you will likely get many differing opinions

[layez]

Originally Posted by bcab17

Then I read another article regarding the idea that moving up from a $100 to a $500 mic preamp normally results in very marginal improvement, and that a $1000+ seems to be the threshold for substantial improvement for mic pres.

that's also my understanding, but the RNP may be an exception as well as the Grace pre.

[Acoustic Cloud]

Well, the cool thing about something like a "Great River plunge", is you will probably never get rid of it. But it will eat up your whole budget, (for now) and you have to make do with your mic(s).

[Bob11m11]

Originally Posted by bcab17

I have been told that the AT4050 is an excellent choice for a "one-mic studio" (although I would only be using it for male vocals and maybe some acoustic guitar).

Consider the AT4033. Everybody on here likes it from what I've searched through.

Also consider ordering from this guy on ebay:
eBay Seller: stoverpro: Pro Audio, Furniture items on eBay.com

I ordered a 4040 for $230 (saving $70). The 4050s are $480, the 4033s are $280 (save $120)

Kudos on picking the RNP thumbsup

[bcab17]

It's great to get so many different ideas. Thanks to all! I really do understand the two schools of thought here:

1) Small home studio - no plans to turn it into a pro shop -- Go for the excellent value of the FMR pre and comp, and add a good vocal mic. Again, the AT4050 seems to be a popular choice. I've also read some glowing reviews on the Sterling Audio ST-77.

2) Take the plunge -- go for the Great River, which will more than likely be all the pre I will ever need. Even with this pre, I still might be able to squeeze a CAD M-179 into the purchase (unless you've got some other $200 or less vocal mic suggestions).

[warhead]

You can do a LOT for $1k actually, compared to what you have (I don't rag on low end gear but you certainly are at the bottom rung of the ladder with no choice to move anywhere but up!).

CAD M179 = craziest deal I've ever seen on a mic of its (A) high quality sound and (B) versatility with variable patterns, pad etc.

Joemeek SixQ is a great little channel strip, and the preamp is quite decent (same preamp in the Toft consoles). You also get the "iron" switch which puts a transformer on the mic input giving you a weightier sound for more versatility. The crazy part is, right now "while supplies last" (hey I'm quoting the Meek site!) you can actually get a JM37 microphone free which is actually a very decent large condensor! So for $449 I would consider that in itself a huge step in the right direction for you.

Then again, even the RANE MS1B would be a nice step up for you from that ART thing.

That SixQ deal is silly and aimed right at you, and gives you all the tools you need to make music one channel at a time if you have the skill.

My $.02

War

[bcab17]

The JoeMeek SixQ is interesting. Isn't it a pre + comp + eq? Are there any SixQ owners out there that can fill me in on some details?

[aussie_techie]

as your describing your place as a "beginner's" studio ill take a wild guess and assume it not treated very well and in which case i would say get a good dynamic first either an SM7 or a heil, the PR20 would be the cheapest starting point, it has a high enough output to be usable with any pre which in the short term could make alot of difference. after a good dynamic i would go for an SM57s or Beta57a and a CAD M177/179 as your utility mics.

save a little more and get your self a good 2ch pre, you will want to record in stereo at some point. i went for the Buzz audio SSA1.1 is a cheaper version of the MA2.2 using the same input module with a cheaper output stage and casing. it may be cheaper than many units and so im sure some would call it a middle of the road pre but its on par with more expensive pres. also buying ex demo or 'open box' units can save you a couple of hundred bucks wile still giving you the new gear warranty that a used unit wouldnt have and that may be difference between buying a pre you can afford and the one you want. im not saying the SSA will be the pre for everyone but i feel something in the range of very good pres while still being a little cheaper will serve you just as well as a more expensive unit and mean you can actually afford it.

while its never easy parting with alot of cash when you are on a tight budget knowing that i will keep the SM7b and the Buzz around for a long does make it a lot easier, especially once you have them at home and realise where you were missing previously.

unless your performers are having dynamics and or mic technique problems you feel you have to correct before going to disk i dont think tracking with anything but great compressors is worth while. the RNC is a great little unit for what it is but i didnt feel it was worth the purchase, i would rather just use a plug-in when mixing.

[6dyslexicelephnt]

RNP and RNC is a bright and clear sound. If you want a fuller, darker sound, go for the ART MPA GOLD and PRO VLA. For me I prefer the warmer sound. Remember we're talking preamps so it's a subtle difference but one that will show up in the final mix.

It's easy to make stuff sound clear by cutting bass later, but it's hard to make things sound full and warm in our digital world. My next purchase is the FMR RNP, but that's because I already have the ART MPA GOLD, PRO VLA, FMR RNC, and Digi 003 preamps.

Next step would probably be Seventh Circle Audio or a 500 series rack and a pacifica and purple audio biz and API 512c etc.

The 4050 is a good idea. Get one used for cheap because they never break

[bcab17]

Those are some great points. My home studio is NOT a dedicated "music room" so it's not (and according to my wife, probably never will be) acoustically treated. Coming from many years in the analog world I also really do prefer a "warmer" tone to the sometimes "brittle digital" sound.

The idea that the FMR is "bright and clear" (in a good way) is what has been pushing me towards the Great River pre (I've been using an inexpensive ART, so I'm not sure if going to the "Gold" would be more of a lateral move). It has also been stated that the difference in preamps' sound (excluding the ultra high-end perhaps) is subtle, and in my decidedly non-pro studio maybe the $1000 Great River would be overkill. I have listened to online tests of many different mic and pre combinations, and I found the differences to be very subtle -- they ALL sound good to me.

I have read some glowing recommendations for the SM7b, and it's inherent tonal character appeals to me, BUT, after vocals the most use the mic will get is for acoustic guitar, and from what I can tell, that's not one of the SM7b's stong points. I'm not in a position to have even a small mic locker anytime soon, so I really need a "go to" condensor mic for vocals and acoustic. Again, I'm torn between the more expensive AT4050 and the more affordable CAD M-179.

[aussie_techie]

dont get torn between mics yet what is best for you it is going to come down to which mic suits your voice better, the price tag doesn't matter. now you have a short list, you need to go and try them

hows your current mic on acoustic? if its usable then i would still be looking at a dynamic for vocals first but it does depend on your voice.

[Blindside]

Hi, broken record again....

Please do yourself a favor and check out a Sterling Audio ST77. It's just as versatile as the 4050, but a bit smoother. You can use it on anything, and you can get it for like $450 at GC. I know no one's heard of it, but PLEASE check it out. You will thank me later.

Also the CAD is also a great option. You can get the 179 plus a CL7602 for about $1000.

[Shadow_7]

The best mic in the world isn't going to sound all that great on a low end preamp. If you settle up the preamp end, it frees you up to get mics for the mics characteristics. Not to get mics for the preamps characteristics.

I recently got a DMP3 in addition to my Art Tube MP. And it makes my AT4033a seem less distant. The Art Tube MP does appear to have a lower noise floor. The DMP3 has a lot more actual gain and makes me sound more like me.

If you're in no hurry and are in a decent location to use craigslist, you can score some great deals there. For my modest setup, I've spent the following:

Audio Technica 4033a - $200
M-Audio DMP3 --------- $120
M-Audio Delta 44 ------ $100
Cables ------------------ $80

I got most everything used at half off of retail. The cables and adapters are all off the shelf radio shack, so no discounts there.

Other craigslist scores:

M-Audio Mobile Pre - $80
Art Tube MP - $50

At a minimum I feel like I could probably sell the acquired gear at costs. So from a certain point of view, it's not really money spent. I probably wouldn't be as happy with my gear, had I paid retail.

[frets4fun]

Great thread! I happen to be in a very similar boat as bcab17. Hobbyist, space/wife-imposed limitations, etc.

I am settling on the AT 4050 as my first condenser. I already have an SM57 & 58. The only open issue wrt condenser: I will be primarily using it for acoustic guitar (vocals too, but that's a secondary need at present). Because of this, I am considering an SDC instead of the 4050. Maybe something like the AT 4051 or the AKG 451B.

Preamps I am considering (I prefer a cleaner sound):

Summit Audio
Grace Design 101
UA 110
RNP

All fall into the $500-800 range. I hadn't given the Great River much thought due to the price. I feel my relatively unsophisticated ears couldn't appreciate the difference. Right now I'm using the MBOX2 preamps. Nowhere to go but up.

Looking forward to more opinions.

[bcab17]

Hey Frets. Sounds like we have a lot in common...except I prefer a warmer sound, especially for my vocals.

I think an interesting aspect for me is more the combination of mic and pre. Again, this is for male vocal (my voice is not "thin", but definitely more alto than tenor, and more smooth "r & b meets pop" than "rock shredder"), and acoustic guitar. Plus, it would be the MAIN mic and pre for 99% of all my tracking. So I wonder if the right mic/pre combo (at a lower price point than the Great River) might be:

1) A "cleaner" pre like the FMR RNP with a "warmer" mic like the CAD M-219, a tube mic like Studio Projects TB1 or T3, or AT4047

2) A "warmer" pre like a Joe Meek, ART, Universal Audio 610 Solo, or even an inexpensive Studio Projects VTB1 with variable tube warmth with a "cleaner" more open sounding mic like the AT4050

And no disrespect to Blindside (when it comes to a vocal mic, the word "smooth" always peeks my interest), but I can't find much of any info/reviews/opinions on the Sterling Audio ST77.

And regarding the Sure SM7b, well I think it would probably be a really nice fit for my voice, and it would be a no-brainer for a multi-mic locker. It's just probably not the right choice for the "99% use for vox + ac. gtr." that I need right now.

And Frets, my ears are probably just as "unsophisticated" as yours (which is maybe the main reason, other than price, that I'm hesitant to spring for the Great River), but I'm learning, and hopefully improving my recording technique, and my ears should improve with it. That being said, the ME-1NV would probably stay with me forever, and maybe the best mic + pre combo for me would be:

3) Great River ME-1NV + ANY mic

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by bcab17

I have about a $1K budget (give or take) to upgrade the front end of my "beginner's" studio. I'm a one-man operation recording one vocal or instrument at a time into a Korg D1600MKII, and I'd like to move up from my starter LDC (MXL V57M) and preamp (ART Tube MP Studio V3).

My research had me leaning towards the FMR RNP and RNC (I've been using a really old Symetrix comp/limiter that's ok). At around $600 for this combo, the FMR seems to be a very popular "best bang for the buck" choice, and it would leave me enough dough to pick up a good vocal mic in the $400 to $500 range. I have been told that the AT4050 is an excellent choice for a "one-mic studio" (although I would only be using it for male vocals and maybe some acoustic guitar).

Then, a friend (who has a lot more experience with studio gear than I) suggested that I go for the best pre I can afford, and add the other gear later. He told me that the Great River ME-1NV is his favorite pre, and knowing that I prefer a "warmer" sound to "extra clean" he said that the Great River's gain-staging would allow me to dial in any amount of "color" that I want. My first reaction was to go from a $69 ART to a $1000 GR sounded a little crazy, but now I don't really know.

So what's your philosophy? Get one high-end piece of gear at a time (build the arsenal slowly) or add more affordable "value" gear sooner (and maybe trade-up later)?

Also, any opinions on the gear I'm considering, and alternate choices would be greatly appreciated.

I think great rivers are overatted and not very versatile. There are as good if not better preamps available for the same money or cheaper.

first off what type of sound are you going for?

[Intergroove]

I love the Joemeek SixQ it is very fat and warm sounding.And the iron button adds a very nice thick color to it.It to me kills anything in it price range and some preamps that cost more like Focusrite Voice Master Pro

[Intergroove]

Hey Warren,how would you compare the Joemmek SixQ to the Chameleon Labs 7602.Are they about the same or is one better than the other?

[frets4fun]

Originally Posted by bcab17

And Frets, my ears are probably just as "unsophisticated" as yours (which is maybe the main reason, other than price, that I'm hesitant to spring for the Great River), but I'm learning, and hopefully improving my recording technique, and my ears should improve with it. That being said, the ME-1NV would probably stay with me forever, and maybe the best mic + pre combo for me would be:

3) Great River ME-1NV + ANY mic

So, noob-noob, FWIW: Look at the Grace Audio and Universal Audio web sites. Each has links to multiple product reviews. I'm not suggesting you follow the advice of the reviewers or that you purchase either of these units, but for me reading the reviews open my eyes to some of the issues/limitations/considerations of preamp choice.

Also, I recently posted this thread about mic-pre combo. Not much response but some good info in there. Like you, I'm concerned with the combination more than the individual components. Unlike you, my priority is acoustic guitar first, then vocal. I LOVE my Taylor 412! For electric stuff, I have a great assortment of tube amp, effects, etc. that have all the "character" I need.

Recommend a Condenser Mic-Pre Combo for Acoustic

[bcab17]

Originally Posted by allencollins

I think great rivers are overatted and not very versatile. There are as good if not better preamps available for the same money or cheaper.

first off what type of sound are you going for?

Well, (and don't kill me for this), but I'm a creature of the '70s and '80s, and my music ranges from classic-rock, folk-rock, pop, r & b, and a "bit o funk". I love rock/hard rock (I just can't write it or play it very well). I don't know if this will help, but here's a cover I recorded in my "little room":
Bonxo.Com :: Music Hosting :: Independent Music

I know there's not one mic or one pre that works for everything, but I am looking for some versatility. Believe me, if a Joe Meek SixQ turns out be a nice flexible "clean when you want clean - add some tube or iron when needed" kind of channel strip, then I'm all over it. The Great River has just been kind of my "high-end" choice based on what I've read AND what I've heard on song posts.

[layez]

Originally Posted by bcab17

I have read some glowing recommendations for the SM7b, and it's inherent tonal character appeals to me, BUT, after vocals the most use the mic will get is for acoustic guitar, and from what I can tell, that's not one of the SM7b's stong points. I'm not in a position to have even a small mic locker anytime soon, so I really need a "go to" condensor mic for vocals and acoustic. Again, I'm torn between the more expensive AT4050 and the more affordable CAD M-179.

I am pretty sure a SM7 would be fine on acoustic guitar. Steve Albini uses it for acoustic, if you like his sound.

[Pohaku]

The SM7 works just fine on acoustic guitars. It is my desert island mic (and I own 2 AT4050s and 2 SM7s). It will sound decent on anything and great on a number of things (like voice). All mics involve compromises, the SM7 just seems to make fewer of them. You do need a decent preamp with it though (as intoned ad nauseum here). If you are really considering a GR, I'd consider getting a luchbox and the new 500 series GR. It will cost you about $100 more or so than the ME-1NV, but then you have a power supply and 4 more slots to fill.

[bcab17]

Originally Posted by Pohaku

The SM7 works just fine on acoustic guitars. It is my desert island mic (and I own 2 AT4050s and 2 SM7s). It will sound decent on anything and great on a number of things (like voice). All mics involve compromises, the SM7 just seems to make fewer of them. You do need a decent preamp with it though (as intoned ad nauseum here). If you are really considering a GR, I'd consider getting a luchbox and the new 500 series GR. It will cost you about $100 more or so than the ME-1NV, but then you have a power supply and 4 more slots to fill.

Please back up a second (I need to catch up). What's a lunchbox and what's the new 500 series?

Also, having bothe the SM7 and 4050, you are a great resourse for me. Could you please compare those two mics for me? What do you use each for, and why do you choose one over the other for a given task? This would be really interesting to me.

[Acoustic Cloud]

5 thumbs up on the SixQ and Cad M179!!thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup