I need some Mic and Pre advice

[layez]

Originally Posted by mikey

heck why don't you pick up the Sebatron Proxima for 960$ you get a nice pre and a compressor .Forget that RNP RNC stuff

ehhhh I might have to agree with him here. If the preamp is anything designed like the 4000e pre's are, it will be very good.

I love my 4000e. Im thinking about getting their Nitrous compressor

[hopeless_opus]

Congrats on the 4050, very cool.

[DamnYankee]

Originally Posted by bcab17

Hey Yank, I actually just "won" a "new-in-box" AT4050 last night on eBay for $385 + $10 shipping. It's now on to the preamp. Still have the RNP and RNC on the top of my list (within my budget) -- the GReat River remains on a "wish list" at this time.

By the way, my compressor/limiter is a Symetrix 522, not 501. They don't make this unit anymore. It's probably 15 years old. I may list it on eBay, and put the money towards the RNC.

Congrats! It's a very respectable mic. Don't ditch your 522...at some point, you'll use it.

Good luck!

DY

[bcab17]

Thanks to all my gearslutz friends. You guys have been great. You've opened my mind to new ideas (like my next mic purchase, probably next spring, will more than likely be a SM7), and really gave me a lot to consider.

Unfortunately, a minor set-back to my budget has just ocurred (an unforseen expense). Now the RNP + RNC is not out of the question -- I just had a FMR authorized dealer offer the pair (new in box) for $585-shipped -- but I may have to buy something less expensive, and look for something better next year.

Also, my little ART pre is starting to act up, so I really need a 2-channel pre right now.

As I slide down the price scale a bit, I'm hoping you folks can help me understand the differences that I would actually HEAR between let's say the $475 RNP and the $160 M-Audio DMP3. I know I'm getting down into the "entry level", but both are highly rated in their price range as "clean" preamps. How is the RNP $315 better than the DMP3? What will my relatively untrained ear hear?

I mean I can probably swing the $585 for the FMR pair, but now I'm really trying to understand that other than supplyimg the phantom power and added gain I will need for my condensors, what else am I getting in these lower price ranges?

[1 M.I.C]

dude i swear to god your asking every question ive ever wondered but didnt care to ask lol.. i'm even prolly gonna get the AT4050 when i can budget it in...

and i too wondered what people may have to say about the audible differences in say a dmp3 and a RNP..

SO LETS HEAR IT SLUTZ

[woofersus]

While we're all on the topic, I've got a couple of questions as well. I had a thread last week about an interface, and I'm still leaning towards a pci solution with no pres built in so that I can choose pre's one by one. Right now I have 2 57's, a 58, and an akg 414. I'm using a Voicemaster Pro as a channel strip, and I have an ART tube MP studio that I use as a tube DI.

1. I'm not totally happy with the sound of the focusrite. I find the tube emulation circuit to be artificial sounding and buzzy, and the eq section assumes a certain desired sound and isn't very flexible. (I actually like the 3-band eq's on my soundcraft compact 10 better) The pre itself is ok, but I could probably get a pre that sounded as good for less. I've been considering replacing it with a oneq, but all the talk of the sixq made me wonder if there is any difference aside from the addition of the enhancer and de-esser. Or, is there a channel strip living in a similar price range that might be better? I will use it mostly for male vocals of the rock variety. (not screamo though)

2. I would like to add a 2-channel pre of reasonable quality for primarily instrument tracking. I will use it primarily for acoustic and electric guitars, as well as bass. (could I use the tube mp for bass and get reasonable results? Haven't tried that yet.)

3. I like the 414 for the kind of vocals I usually record, and it's good enough for the occasional female vocal even though there are some other choices I might look into in the future. (I got to use a ksm37 on female vocals once and liked it a lot) I also like the 57's and combinations of them and the 414 for electric guitar. I'm not totally happy with what I have for acoustic guitar, however. The 414 does a reasonable job, but I'm working on a very warm acoustic sound (for this project anyhow) and I feel like it muddies up the midbass on me quite a bit. I've tried the bass rolloff, and moving the mic farther away as ways to reduce proximity effect, but I find I lose the warmth I want as well as some of the lower bass sounds that I want to capture. I've managed to finesse it with some eq, but I'm wondering if I should look into a different mic choice. Should I look into a SDC? Would I still get the warmth of a LDC? Maybe a combination? Advice would be welcomed.

[bcab17]

Originally Posted by woofersus

While we're all on the topic, I've got a couple of questions as well. I had a thread last week about an interface, and I'm still leaning towards a pci solution with no pres built in so that I can choose pre's one by one. Right now I have 2 57's, a 58, and an akg 414. I'm using a Voicemaster Pro as a channel strip, and I have an ART tube MP studio that I use as a tube DI.

1. I'm not totally happy with the sound of the focusrite. I find the tube emulation circuit to be artificial sounding and buzzy, and the eq section assumes a certain desired sound and isn't very flexible. (I actually like the 3-band eq's on my soundcraft compact 10 better) The pre itself is ok, but I could probably get a pre that sounded as good for less. I've been considering replacing it with a oneq, but all the talk of the sixq made me wonder if there is any difference aside from the addition of the enhancer and de-esser. Or, is there a channel strip living in a similar price range that might be better? I will use it mostly for male vocals of the rock variety. (not screamo though)

2. I would like to add a 2-channel pre of reasonable quality for primarily instrument tracking. I will use it primarily for acoustic and electric guitars, as well as bass. (could I use the tube mp for bass and get reasonable results? Haven't tried that yet.)

3. I like the 414 for the kind of vocals I usually record, and it's good enough for the occasional female vocal even though there are some other choices I might look into in the future. (I got to use a ksm37 on female vocals once and liked it a lot) I also like the 57's and combinations of them and the 414 for electric guitar. I'm not totally happy with what I have for acoustic guitar, however. The 414 does a reasonable job, but I'm working on a very warm acoustic sound (for this project anyhow) and I feel like it muddies up the midbass on me quite a bit. I've tried the bass rolloff, and moving the mic farther away as ways to reduce proximity effect, but I find I lose the warmth I want as well as some of the lower bass sounds that I want to capture. I've managed to finesse it with some eq, but I'm wondering if I should look into a different mic choice. Should I look into a SDC? Would I still get the warmth of a LDC? Maybe a combination? Advice would be welcomed.

Good questions Woofersus, but you may want to start your own thread. We're trying to keep "on point" here.

[woofersus]

sorry, I just thought this might be a good place to discuss a number of preamp/microphone options. Those are all in the price range you specified.

[bcab17]

Originally Posted by woofersus

sorry, I just thought this might be a good place to discuss a number of preamp/microphone options. Those are all in the price range you specified.

No reason to apologize, bro. I'm sure some of the knowledgeable folks will help you out. I know they've helped me a great deal. I'm just trying to focus the replies on the discussion of what differentiates a $150 (DMP3) and $500 (RNP) preamp, and if those differences are "obviously audible" or "very subtle". I've got a pretty good offer on the table that expires shortly, so I'm hoping for some quick help with this.

[layez]

I dont know if you are going to get any direct comparisons, but hell you might get lucky, but the long story short is that some people around here with expensive stuff also seem to appreciate the RNP. That should say something there. I personally know nothing about it. I said get the 1NV or the Sebatron

[mikey]

Studio Reviews Magazine
checkout these charts

[bcab17]

Originally Posted by layez

I dont know if you are going to get any direct comparisons, but hell you might get lucky, but the long story short is that some people around here with expensive stuff also seem to appreciate the RNP. That should say something there. I personally know nothing about it. I said get the 1NV or the Sebatron

I'm with ya, bro. Just can't swing the price, so I've got to look "cheaper". I did read one "user review" for the RNP from a guy who previously had a DMP3, and he said the RNP was a BIG step up. Then I read another "user review" by a guy who trashed the RNP because it's way too noisy (hiss). That was actually the first negative review of the RNP that I had seen anywhere.

I'm hoping someone who has experience with both these pres will jump in here.

[Marty J]

Originally Posted by bcab17

I'm with ya, bro. Just can't swing the price, so I've got to look "cheaper". I did read one "user review" for the RNP from a guy who previously had a DMP3, and he said the RNP was a BIG step up. Then I read another "user review" by a guy who trashed the RNP because it's way too noisy (hiss). That was actually the first negative review of the RNP that I had seen anywhere.

I'm hoping someone who has experience with both these pres will jump in here.

FMR don't hide the fact that the RNP might be a bit noisier than other preamps. They have this to say:

"The RNP is relatively noisy when evaluated by lab measurement. Many mic pres these days (including the really cheap ones) have very low noise floors (EINs of -127dB or better). The RNP's EIN of -120dB is obviously not as "good" as these others.

I decided that the sonic character (or lack thereof) and a decent price point were more important than the absolute noise floor. Why? First, many of the sought-after vintage mic pre noise levels are much worse than the RNPs. So in actual use, I concluded, many folks (particularly those "in-the-know") prefer good tone, even if it's slightly noisier. Second, even though we have internal versions of the RNP with a lower EIN, we'd have to charge at least $100 more for the privilege of meeting lab measurements that few actual applications would challenge. Third, the trend in microphone development has been to raise the output level of microphones, thereby reducing overall gain requirements of external mic pres. Are there some applications using the RNP that may be problematic? Yes. Will most of us encounter them? No."

[bcab17]

Originally Posted by Marty J

FMR don't hide the fact that the RNP might be a bit noisier than other preamps. They have this to say:

"The RNP is relatively noisy when evaluated by lab measurement. Many mic pres these days (including the really cheap ones) have very low noise floors (EINs of -127dB or better). The RNP's EIN of -120dB is obviously not as "good" as these others.

I decided that the sonic character (or lack thereof) and a decent price point were more important than the absolute noise floor. Why? First, many of the sought-after vintage mic pre noise levels are much worse than the RNPs. So in actual use, I concluded, many folks (particularly those "in-the-know") prefer good tone, even if it's slightly noisier. Second, even though we have internal versions of the RNP with a lower EIN, we'd have to charge at least $100 more for the privilege of meeting lab measurements that few actual applications would challenge. Third, the trend in microphone development has been to raise the output level of microphones, thereby reducing overall gain requirements of external mic pres. Are there some applications using the RNP that may be problematic? Yes. Will most of us encounter them? No."

Thanks Marty. I had read this on their website before. I think it's cool that they are willing to list "what sucks". I never gave the noise issue another thought after reading several rave reviews.

[layez]

I personally wouldn't sweat the noise, as it won't be that bad. I dont mind a noise floor, i personally love the old analog sound with tons of tape hiss and all. Actually, i think i get suspicious if I can't hear any noise at all.

The bottom line is to try and get things that you won't outgrow, and the RNP you likely will not outgrow. You might want something different some day, but still hold on to the RNP.

[layez]

here is something else you might want to check out, i almost bought one of these myself:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...l-mic-pre.html

They are supposedly very clean, perhaps similar to the RNP in the aspect, 4 channels total but also has 2 channels with tranformers which would add a little more color to the sound. Steve Albini uses these things so they must be half decent. Could anyone else verify the sound of the Sytek versus the RNP?

[Shadow_7]

Different preamps have different specs. Input impedance, noise floor, frequency response, tube color. And others that have built in compressors, limiters, equalizers, et cetera. Not to say that any are better than others. But you want one that at least equals and hopefully exceeds the specs of your converter and mic.

No need to have an interface capable of 192kHz and 24 bit sampling if your preamp cuts the signal down to 48kHz and 16 bit. Or to run a ribbon mic through a preamp that doesn't have enough gain. It might only be 1% noise, but if you have to normalize/amplify by a factor of 10, that's 10% noise.

[YUGA]

If you can't afford an RNP. The Mackie Onyx Satellite actually has inserts so you can use them as a stereo preamp. I don't own the Onyx Satellite but own an Onyx mixer. The Onyx pres are really good for money. Probably comparable to the RNP and definitely a step up from your ART Tube MP.

[Coyoteous]

Originally Posted by YUGA

If you can't afford an RNP. The Mackie Onyx Satellite actually has inserts so you can use them as a stereo preamp. I don't own the Onyx Satellite but own an Onyx mixer. The Onyx pres are really good for money. Probably comparable to the RNP and definitely a step up from your ART Tube MP.

I agree; I have an Onyx 1220 and like those pre's very much. If you are thinking about getting a Satellite, make sure you use the insert outs (as above) - which are on the base. The outputs on the pod are from the D/A according to the schematic. So the pre's hit A/D conversion, then D/A (from the pod).

You could also pick the pre out off of the multipin on the pod... I thought about doing this, but ended up getting a sweet deal on a DMP3 instead. I really didn't need all the other Satellite functions, anyway - though they seem nice.

The JoeMeek 3Q is also nice - has EQ and optical compression, and the Rane MS-1b should not be overlooked either.

[jdier]

Originally Posted by bcab17

Well, to kind of bring this back on point, for $1000 (maybe $1200) I'm looking for one mic and one preamp. They would be mainly for tracking vocals and acoustic guitar.

My original idea was to either pair a great pre (Great River ME-1NV) with an inexpensive mic (CAD M-179, etc.) or spend about the same amount for each, like a FMR RNP with an AT4050. I have an old Symetrix 522 comp/limiter/expander/ducker/gate, which I can use for the time being, but if I go for the RNP I may just throw in another $150 and match it with the RNC.

The AT4047 sounds interesting because I really like a warmer sound, and that's what I've hear about it.

I'm a little concerned about pairing the RNP with the 4050, because even though these are two very well thought of products, many have referred to them both as "somewhat boring". Solid -- clean -- no personality. Now that may be exactly what some people would look for, but to me it sounds...well, a little boring.

The concept of being able to go clean or add any amount of color is exactly what drew me to the Great River pre in the first place (gain staging).

There has been some really excellent stuff in this thread, but I'm still not sure which way to go. I had my finger on "Buy It Now" for a AT4050 @ $400 earlier tonight, but I pulled back.

I will again suggest the RNP. That (to me) is close to a no brainer. For the mics, I still think the SM7 is a great choice for vocals and I also think you might be able to fill the rest of your needs with two SM57's. These things will forever be in your recording arsenal. I personally think you can get a good acoustic guitar sound from 57's. I typically will use my 414 and a 57, but I have done two 57's and been happy with results.

Regarding your thoughts on using two mics for a single vocal source, google Bowie Vocal Recording (or something close) and learn how he and Tony V set up multiple mics all the time to give his voice more depth. The primary difference between what they do and what you were suggesting is that they set them up in a line. The first 6" from Bowie, the second 18" from Bowie. So first is 1x, second is 3x, this is to make sure that they do not have phase problems. I have not tried this myself and have read that it requires a nice room for it to be effective.

[jdier]

Originally Posted by hopeless_opus

bcab17,

Don't buy into the whole "needing a different pre for different applications" garbage. this is just marketing BS, like needing "matched" tubes for your guitar amp. Most of the all time classic records were recorded with one type of preamp, which was what was in the board they were using. Now mics are a different story, but don't let people sell you on NEEDING a bunch of different pres. Buy a high quality preamp, like the Great River or RNP, or maybe even the Joemeek if it's the best you can afford, and move on.

If you really like the idea of mixing and matching pres, that's cool. But it is far from essential and may or may not help your recordings. My mic recommendations would be the SM7 and an AT4047.

just my 2 cents, peace.

While I do not have an AT4047 if I can assume it is equal to or better than my $300 chinese LDC mic I like this line of thinking in that it will provide nice options and you can use both together to mic your acoustic guitar.

[jdier]

Originally Posted by bcab17

I'm with ya, bro. Just can't swing the price, so I've got to look "cheaper". I did read one "user review" for the RNP from a guy who previously had a DMP3, and he said the RNP was a BIG step up. Then I read another "user review" by a guy who trashed the RNP because it's way too noisy (hiss). That was actually the first negative review of the RNP that I had seen anywhere.

I'm hoping someone who has experience with both these pres will jump in here.

bcab, I might suggest you posting in the buy/sell area that you are looking for an RNP. I think you could pick one up for $375 or so. maybe less. I am pretty sure I got one of mine with and RNC in a funklogic rack for $425. That was a great deal, but you might get lucky too.

I read the stuff about the noise in the RNP before I bought my first one, but frankly, I have never noticed it.

[treemind]

I have the Blue Bluebird condenser running through the BRICK preamp, then into the RNC compressor. total cost is about $850, and the combo is a real winner in my book.. for under a grand its a decent starter kit.

[Guitarzan]

I tend to think the whole save your money thing is completely bogus, buy something that you can afford. The key is buy low, sell high. Basically you are using gear for free while you accumulate enough to sell to get what you really want. Right nowI am using a ADK hamburg, GT brick, Art pro Vla, and onyx 400f. Not one peice is a big ticket item but I can get good results. If I start to get unhappy, so what, sell, then buy what I want.

[Acoustic Cloud]

Originally Posted by Guitarzan

I tend to think the whole save your money thing is completely bogus, buy something that you can afford. The key is buy low, sell high.

Well, this isn't exactly the stock market, but flipping things can often be considered rental fee, because of the loss. I have 2 takes on this: Saving your money if you already have functional cheap-mid priced gear is a good idea, most of the time. Get your ears in gear.

Saving your money if you have close to no gear at all, just wastes learning/mixing time. Buy some cheap stuff and record, plain as that!

GEEDER DONE!!!

[6dyslexicelephnt]

Originally Posted by Guitarzan

I tend to think the whole save your money thing is completely bogus, buy something that you can afford. The key is buy low, sell high. Basically you are using gear for free while you accumulate enough to sell to get what you really want. Right nowI am using a ADK hamburg, GT brick, Art pro Vla, and onyx 400f. Not one peice is a big ticket item but I can get good results. If I start to get unhappy, so what, sell, then buy what I want.

I totally agree. Watch craigslist and ebay for good used deals. You are learning a lot this way because your set up is 80% the way to a really nice recording chain, just with lower quality parts. Then you just swap out parts as you see fit. You will get to a point where it's between swapping things out or getting parts you don't have. For me, I have 3 SM57s, a Beta 52, a pair of MK-012s, a modded Apex 205, a AT4033 and an Oktavamod MK-319. It's enough to record bands. I'd like a neutral multipattern LDC, which I don't have, or better overheads. Maybe a large diaphragm dynamic/different kick mic. So I pick my weakest link (my SDC overheads) or get something new like LDC overheads or a LDD.