Sidechaining in Cubase is creating a Phasing effect.

ONDRAY · 18th September 2007, 04:20 PM

why is is that when I sidechain in cubase all the tracks get a phasing effect/flutter kinda thing. I've done this before on a PC with SX3 and never had this problem. Now I'm on Cubase 4 with my new Mac Pro and a demo version of Sonalksis SV-315 Mk2 Compressor (versus a forever working unregistered version :( ) and it's doing funky things. Sometimes it works and then it starts doing the phase/flutter thing again. Has anyone had this issue? this is how it's set-up.

------------
BASS CHANNEL: Channel output sent to "QUADRO GROUP CHANNEL: Stereo", channel fader @ 0.0dB

QUADRO GROUP CHANNEL (with 2 child buses): Insert 4 has a Sonalksis SV-315 Mk2 Compressor on it with sidechain active.

KIK CHANNEL: Aux 5 sent to "QUADRO GROUP CHANNEL: Stereo Ls-Rs" @ 0.0dB with pre-fader on, Channel fader @ 0.0dB.

------------

Also, can anyone recommend and alternate VST plugin for MAC with external sidechain option.

thanks.

theblue1 · 18th September 2007, 05:22 PM

The familiar "phase shift" sound typically comes from the combination of two nearly identical signals with one of them delayed a small amount against the other ("out of phase," if you will.)

If I'm following your routing (not a Cubase guy and not really familiar with the specifics of its PDC implementation), it sounds like your parallel processing arrangement is introducing extra delay in the signal run with the extra processing (not surprisingly).

Just flying ideas of the top of my pointed little head, I'm wondering if you couldn't insert one of those plugs designed to simply delay the signal by a specified amount into the other path(s) to even things up. Again, not sure how Cubase's PDC will play into that...

Hopefully someone with Cubase-specific knowledge will see my clumsy attempt at an answer and come to our rescue here...

ONDRAY · 18th September 2007, 06:14 PM

The effect what you've described. I could insert an fx to delay the signal, but I think it's deeper then that. It's like the auto delay compensation in Cubase is not working for the Sonolksis plugs. If I power of the Sonolksis Compressor that I have side chained the delay (phasing) for all other tracks is gone, it's even affecting tracks that the compressor has nothing to do with.

thx for the delay solution may try that out if need be.

ben m · 18th September 2007, 06:52 PM

You could try inserting the same compressor on the 3 channels that feed the group but set the ratio to 1:1 so the compressor is not actually doing anything.

There are quite a few plugins with sidechain capabilities for VST I believe - Waves C1 can do this but I don't know the cost of this or if you can buy it on its own.

dBAudioware do one with a demo you can try:
Sidechain Compressor from db audioware
but i haven't tried this so i can't comment on audio quality.

Just to check do you haven't turned off PDC as there is an icon in the arrange window for turning it on and off in SX3 and I imagine in 4 also.

Hope this helps.

ONDRAY · 18th September 2007, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben m

You could try inserting the same compressor on the 3 channels that feed the group but set the ratio to 1:1 so the compressor is not actually doing anything.

Not sure how this would creat the sidechain ducking effect???

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben m

Just to check do you haven't turned off PDC as there is an icon in the arrange window for turning it on and off in SX3 and I imagine in 4 also.

I've turned this off and on and the audio is the same, that's the wierd thing. It's like with the Sonolksis on the PDC isn't working properly. Or it could be the Quadro group channel that's causing this. I've tried this on two different projects now and it's only when I do this technique that the PDC seems to not be functioning.

Chrisc_o · 18th September 2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ONDRAY

Not sure how this would creat the sidechain ducking effect???

He is talking about introducing the delay to the original un-compressed signals to un-phase the whole shebang.

ben m · 18th September 2007, 07:45 PM

If the Sonalksis plugin is adding Xms delay to the signal which isn't being caught by PDC, then inserting the same plugin on the channels that are feeding the sidechain group should also delay those channels by the same amount therefore negating the phasing effect caused between the group and the original channels.

However I misread your first post so you would actually only put the extra Sonalksis plug on the kick channel insert and then set the 'send' on the kick channel to 'pre-fade'

But by the sound of it, if the phasing is on all channels then it must be something else

I don't know how that Sonalksis plug works but with Waves C1 comp-SC I just create a stereo group and turn the balance control into 2xmono faders.
I find this a bit easier that the Quad group method for mono signals.

ONDRAY · 18th September 2007, 07:50 PM

ah ha, I get it. I'll give it try. I'll try anyting at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben m

I just create a stereo group and turn the balance control into 2xmono faders.
I find this a bit easier that the Quad group method for mono signals.

care to explain your method a bit better. These are mainly mono signals I'm Sidechaining, wouldn't hurt to give your method a crack.

thx.

ben m · 18th September 2007, 08:03 PM

The Stereo Group method works like this;

1 - Create 'Stereo Group' and put Sidechain Compressor across Insert.
At this point tell your compressor to look at RIGHT channel for Sidechain Input (i've chose R for the purposes of this explanation, you can obviously do it the other way, just reverse all the pan settings below)

2 - Pan Bass Guitar fully LEFT and set Bass Guitar channel output to 'Stereo Group'

3 - Create Aux Send on Kick track with the Aux feeding 'Stereo Group' - in the aux routing controls set the pan to fully RIGHT. (Also decide on whether setting the aux to pre-fade is appropriate)

4 - Right Click on the 'Stereo Group' balance control and choose 'Stereo Dual Panner'. Now bring the LEFT control to absolute centre - this should put your bass guitar back in the centre.

5 - Set appropriate compression settings in compressor on 'Stereo Group'

It sounds more complicated than it is but you can set it up really quick once you've done it a couple of times.

ONDRAY · 18th September 2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben m

It sounds more complicated than it is but you can set it up really quick once you've done it a couple of times.

Thx Ben, seems pretty straight forward, similar to the Quadro way. I'll give it go with the mono compressor.

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18th September 2007, 04:20 PM	#1
ONDRAY Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 329	Sidechaining in Cubase is creating a Phasing effect. why is is that when I sidechain in cubase all the tracks get a phasing effect/flutter kinda thing. I've done this before on a PC with SX3 and never had this problem. Now I'm on Cubase 4 with my new Mac Pro and a demo version of Sonalksis SV-315 Mk2 Compressor (versus a forever working unregistered version :( ) and it's doing funky things. Sometimes it works and then it starts doing the phase/flutter thing again. Has anyone had this issue? this is how it's set-up. ------------ BASS CHANNEL: Channel output sent to "QUADRO GROUP CHANNEL: Stereo", channel fader @ 0.0dB QUADRO GROUP CHANNEL (with 2 child buses): Insert 4 has a Sonalksis SV-315 Mk2 Compressor on it with sidechain active. KIK CHANNEL: Aux 5 sent to "QUADRO GROUP CHANNEL: Stereo Ls-Rs" @ 0.0dB with pre-fader on, Channel fader @ 0.0dB. ------------ Also, can anyone recommend and alternate VST plugin for MAC with external sidechain option. thanks.

18th September 2007, 05:22 PM	#2
theblue1 Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 5,443	The familiar "phase shift" sound typically comes from the combination of two nearly identical signals with one of them delayed a small amount against the other ("out of phase," if you will.) If I'm following your routing (not a Cubase guy and not really familiar with the specifics of its PDC implementation), it sounds like your parallel processing arrangement is introducing extra delay in the signal run with the extra processing (not surprisingly). Just flying ideas of the top of my pointed little head, I'm wondering if you couldn't insert one of those plugs designed to simply delay the signal by a specified amount into the other path(s) to even things up. Again, not sure how Cubase's PDC will play into that... Hopefully someone with Cubase-specific knowledge will see my clumsy attempt at an answer and come to our rescue here... __________________ TKMajor.com \| profile \| songwriter blog \| folk/acoustic \| mutant roots pop: one blue nine \| politics

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18th September 2007, 06:14 PM	#3
ONDRAY Gear addict Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 329	The effect what you've described. I could insert an fx to delay the signal, but I think it's deeper then that. It's like the auto delay compensation in Cubase is not working for the Sonolksis plugs. If I power of the Sonolksis Compressor that I have side chained the delay (phasing) for all other tracks is gone, it's even affecting tracks that the compressor has nothing to do with. thx for the delay solution may try that out if need be.

18th September 2007, 06:52 PM	#4
ben m Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 32	You could try inserting the same compressor on the 3 channels that feed the group but set the ratio to 1:1 so the compressor is not actually doing anything. There are quite a few plugins with sidechain capabilities for VST I believe - Waves C1 can do this but I don't know the cost of this or if you can buy it on its own. dBAudioware do one with a demo you can try: Sidechain Compressor from db audioware but i haven't tried this so i can't comment on audio quality. Just to check do you haven't turned off PDC as there is an icon in the arrange window for turning it on and off in SX3 and I imagine in 4 also. Hope this helps.

18th September 2007, 07:45 PM	#7
ben m Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 32	If the Sonalksis plugin is adding Xms delay to the signal which isn't being caught by PDC, then inserting the same plugin on the channels that are feeding the sidechain group should also delay those channels by the same amount therefore negating the phasing effect caused between the group and the original channels. However I misread your first post so you would actually only put the extra Sonalksis plug on the kick channel insert and then set the 'send' on the kick channel to 'pre-fade' But by the sound of it, if the phasing is on all channels then it must be something else I don't know how that Sonalksis plug works but with Waves C1 comp-SC I just create a stereo group and turn the balance control into 2xmono faders. I find this a bit easier that the Quad group method for mono signals.

18th September 2007, 08:03 PM	#9
ben m Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 32	The Stereo Group method works like this; 1 - Create 'Stereo Group' and put Sidechain Compressor across Insert. At this point tell your compressor to look at RIGHT channel for Sidechain Input (i've chose R for the purposes of this explanation, you can obviously do it the other way, just reverse all the pan settings below) 2 - Pan Bass Guitar fully LEFT and set Bass Guitar channel output to 'Stereo Group' 3 - Create Aux Send on Kick track with the Aux feeding 'Stereo Group' - in the aux routing controls set the pan to fully RIGHT. (Also decide on whether setting the aux to pre-fade is appropriate) 4 - Right Click on the 'Stereo Group' balance control and choose 'Stereo Dual Panner'. Now bring the LEFT control to absolute centre - this should put your bass guitar back in the centre. 5 - Set appropriate compression settings in compressor on 'Stereo Group' It sounds more complicated than it is but you can set it up really quick once you've done it a couple of times.