Apogee Duet or Summit Pre-amp? Help me decide

[g-nem]

Hey guys- so the next CD project I am recording is going to be a solo singer-guitarist who wants to do an album that sounds like Joni Mitchell's Blue or Patty Griffins Live With Ghosts. I am trying to decide what gear upgrades I need to get the best sound for that- here's my setup:

Apple Powerbook G4 w/ DP
Motu 828 MK1
Presonus Bluetube Mic Pre
Oktava 319 and MK-012

I was thinking about buying a summit audio 2ba-221 and having oktavamod mod my 319 and 012 to premium specs, but since the apogee duet is coming out I've been thinking I could get that instead of the Summit and improve my AD conversion and mic preamp in one step. The other option would be getting the summit and having blacklionaudio mod my 828 and getting their microclock.

So my question:

Which will be a better upgrade to my rig- the summit 2ba-221 or the apogee duet?

Also, should I get my oktava's modded or just spend the cash for a Neumann TLM-103?

[The Kamillion]

your pre is the weakest. remember the signal chain.

[The Teej]

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably spring for a new preamp. I guess if it were me, I'd want to step up the vocal chain before going with a different interface.

The Duet does look cool though.

[The Teej]

Originally Posted by g-nem

Also, should I get my oktava's modded or just spend the cash for a Neumann TLM-103?

I also don't think a TLM103 would benefit you in this situation. It wouldn't be my first choice on a female vocalist in the vein of music you're describing. From what I hear, the Oktava mods are pretty cool, but there are more informed slutz than I who may be able to corroberate the rumors.

[The Kamillion]

Originally Posted by The Teej

I also don't think a TLM103 would benefit you in this situation. It wouldn't be my first choice on a female vocalist in the vein of music you're describing. From what I hear, the Oktava mods are pretty cool, but there are more informed slutz than I who may be able to corroberate the rumors.

the 103 is the absolute last mic i would use on a female singer.

very brittle. very thin.

[g-nem]

Thanks for the replies guys- so the consensus is that the better AD in the Duet doesn't trump the summit preamp with my 828's AD?

As far as the neumann 103 goes, I went and tried a bunch of mics at a store and that was the one that popped out at me in the 1 grand range. I guess I'll read through some posts for some more mic recommendations, though.

[layez]

definately upgrade your preamp, and a mike mod probably couldnt hurt. I have been reading a lot about the oktava mods and i havent found anything bad about them. On the other hand, hte TLM103 doesnt get very much love; not that its a horrible microphone but it seems that its not worth the money. I just bought a Oktava tube mike and will be modding it sooner than later. The clips comparing a Neumann tube mike and the modded Oktava is pretty convincing.

Perhaps you also might want to consider a ribbon microphone?

[logichead]

I'm not sure the Duet wouldn't beat the Summit Pre (combined with the MOTU). The Duet pres are the same as the Ensemble (which I have in my native rig), and they sound really good - transparent, clean, lots of gain. I usually don't bother to hook up my stand-alone pres when I'm using it.

I used a Summit years ago and it sounded fine, but I think too much of it's goodness will get lost going through the MOTU.

Other issues may get in the way - you have to be on 10.4.1 to use Duet.

Best....H

[g-nem]

Originally Posted by logichead

I used a Summit years ago and it sounded fine, but I think too much of it's goodness will get lost going through the MOTU.

This is what I've been suspecting- but I'm not sold that the mic pre's in an all-in-one unit will be good enough vs the dedicated summit pres. (I'm also talking about the $700 summit, not the $2K ones) I guess I could go to a store and try out an apogee ensemble and compare it to the summit. . . I'll have to try that. It still won't capture the MOTU's AD though.

As far as mics go I haven't heard anything bad about the oktavamods either; however I won't be able to A/B it with other mics until after its modded.

And of course, I will be taking the singer to the store to try and find the right mic for her voice. . . but it seems like a fairly limited selection of mics all things considered when you go to a store.

Any more opinons regarding upgrading mic pre alone vs the Duet?

[SpaceMusic_Guy]

Well......as far as checking out Microphones goes......you should check out the BLUE "Dragonfly", "Blue Bird" or "Baby Bottle". Very nice microphones !! I did some A/B testing several years back at GC with the "Dragonfly", a "U-87" and the "TLM 103".

I must say that the Neumann TLM 103 did not do much for me at all. I thought it was sizzly and somewhat "sibilent"......a very overpriced Mic......I personally would not buy it. The "Dragonfly" I thought sounded absolutely wonderful !!

Once again, check out the BLUE Microphones.......VERY high quality sound for a reasonable price.......a much better buy than the TLM 103.

[g-nem]

Cool- I'll check out the dragonfly.

And it looks like I'll most likely be getting a summit 2ba-221, once I've checked it out with whichever mic I choose.

[Z-Lister Adam]

Originally Posted by logichead

The Duet pres are the same as the Ensemble (which I have in my native rig), and they sound really good - transparent, clean, lots of gain. I usually don't bother to hook up my stand-alone pres when I'm using it.

Hi Logichead - Are you 100% sure about the pre's in the duet being the same as the ensemble? I'd read the ADC's were the same but not heard or seen anything about the Pre's, & have scoured their website trying to confirm this.

Cheers

Adam

[g-nem]

There's a whole thread talking about the duet right now- i could have sworn it was stated specifically that the duet has the same preamps as the ensemble, but glancing throught the thread I didn't see those words, exactly.

[jefe]

It's in post #5

Originally Posted by Max

Duet is the same quality converters and mic pres as Ensemble.

[Z-Lister Adam]

Perfect - Thanks, don't know how i missed that with my ham-fisted searching.

Makes it a no brainer about the duet, my name will be down for paying the usual hefty chunk of extra cash for the pleasure of buying one in england (just checked in my local music store & retail price here of £329 will equate to $670!!) .... actually, considering its FW buss powered ... i guess I could buy from the US....mmmm

[sharky]

Originally Posted by g-nem

Hey guys- so the next CD project I am recording is going to be a solo singer-guitarist who wants to do an album that sounds like Joni Mitchell's Blue or Patty Griffins Live With Ghosts. I am trying to decide what gear upgrades I need to get the best sound for that- here's my setup:

Apple Powerbook G4 w/ DP
Motu 828 MK1
Presonus Bluetube Mic Pre
Oktava 319 and MK-012

I was thinking about buying a summit audio 2ba-221 and having oktavamod mod my 319 and 012 to premium specs, but since the apogee duet is coming out I've been thinking I could get that instead of the Summit and improve my AD conversion and mic preamp in one step. The other option would be getting the summit and having blacklionaudio mod my 828 and getting their microclock.

So my question:

Which will be a better upgrade to my rig- the summit 2ba-221 or the apogee duet?

Also, should I get my oktava's modded or just spend the cash for a Neumann TLM-103?

When faced with the question of what to upgrade in my signal chain, my order is generally this:

1. Pre
2. Mic
3. Conversion

That's in my world.

[mostlykeys]

Originally Posted by g-nem

Which will be a better upgrade to my rig- the summit 2ba-221 or the apogee duet?

I like summit gear. I've also used the pieces you are talking about (motu, tlm103, etc...). I think one thing you should consider is that the DUET may upgrade your monitoring. I have found that as i have been upgrading my monitoring, my mixes have become more refined - because i can hear what is going on in the mix more accurately. Granted everyone's ears are different but if i had to choose between a new pre and an upgrade to my monitoring, i would choose the monitoring upgrade. No offense to those who are using MOTU gear but the DUET has newer converters built in and has garnered excellent reviews (both from professionals and non professionals).

Having said all of this, the summit pre is very nice, i have one and use it all the time.

Just my opinon on the mics. I have a TLM103 and it sounds great through great gear. I do not use it with pres that are too clear as that tends make the mic sound too bright. I use it with a Manley dual mono pre (nice and warm) or the Summit 2BA-221 (with a low tube blend setting). As always it depends on the source whether or not you will use this combo. I will say that i have used the TLM103 on female vocals and it was a great combination. Can you borrow one to try?

[g-nem]

Thanks for your input, mostlykeys. I'm still vacillating between the summit and the duet right now- I'll have to think about monitoring as something new to consider. My monitoring setup is alesis mk2's and an alesis RA-200. Not neccesarily the best monitoring setup.

I went to a microphone showcase at west LA music last week, and got to try out a bunch of mics, including the TLM103. Through the very medicore preamps everyone was using, and headphones as well, it was apparent that the tlm103 really is a lot brighter than a tlm49 or u87. On the singers voice, the TLM103 didn't sound as good. There was also a vintage u47 and RCA ribbon mic both of which completely rocked, of course! But apart from those 2, I tried a mojave LDC, the RODE tube LDC, a bunch of groove tubes stuff, and neumann tlm103, 49 and U87. Out of all of those, suprisingly, the only ones to pass muster were the 49 and the U87. I liked the Mojave MA-200, but it was a little too sibilant for the vocalist.

Right now it looks like it'll either be the TLM49 or maybe going for a pelusi or pearlman, if I can find one in LA to try out.

As far as preamps go, I'm going to have to go and compare the summit with an apogee ensemble and see if the apogees preamps are good enough to complement whichever mic I get.