Getting Slightly More Serious with My Personal Studio - Need Help

[lanervoza]

Basically, I'm just overwhelmed with options. I'm trying to figure this out logically and thoroughly where I don't over or underspend and yet maximize product quality - but hey, isn't everyone?

Right now I'm running Logic 7 on a Powerbook G4 with a MOTU 828mk2 and Yamaha MSP5 monitors. I do most things direct, except vocals (obviously).

So here's my little map/plan:

Sources [Guitar/Bass/Keys/Synth/Vox] --> DI (if necessary) --> Preamp --> Conversion --> Interface --> Conversion --> Monitors

Right? I'm trying to figure out how to do this effectively.

I've been looking at the API A2D as a good 2-channel preamp and AD converter.

So now we have:

Sources --> DI --> A2D --> Interface --> Conversion --> Monitors

I'll probably try ADAM A7s as a monitor upgrade, as I hear they produce great bang for the buck, especially in a small room.

Sources --> DI --> A2D --> Interface --> Conversion --> A7s

Then, for the Interface/DA Conversion, I was thinking Apogee Ensemble, and then toyed around with the idea of hooking up a Dangerous D-Box for DA and monitor control. But then it doesn't look like the digital I/O works well together. But maybe you know better?

So then myriad options bloom and are left over and I can't wrap my head around everything.

I don't need many inputs. Right now I don't use more than two at a time, but I could see myself expanding.

I do have some outboard processors (digital and analog) that I would like to integrate.

I want to have a set up that will leave me golden for when I can treat my room and serve me well until then, and serve me better than now.

Sorry for the long wind, but thanks in advance,

Alex

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by lanervoza

I want to have a set up that will leave me golden for when I can treat my room

What's wrong with your current gear? You'd do better to treat your room first. Then you'll be able to hear what's actually going on in your recordings and mixes.

--Ethan

[FossilTooth]

Ethan, you sly dog!

However, I would agree that room treatment is often one of the last things home and project studio owners consider, when it should be one of the first.

[peeder]

I don't see any need to get both an Ensemble and an A2D. If you want API preamps, you can get them without their ADC, and just use the Ensemble ADCs which are supposed to be good enough. Pick up a lunchbox or something, maybe the 3124, to get those preamps. A good DAC is just as important as a good ADC so you can hear what you are doing.

[T_MIX]

Alex,
Bro... I have been where you are, but before any one can really give you good advice, it would help to know more about you, your likes and dislikes with your existing set up, and where you (here's the kicker) REALISTICALLY are going to go with it.

I have found if you can spend your money on stuff you will use 90% of the time that is your best bang-for-buck.
I have spent countless money on stuff I have rarely used.

What do you not like about your monitors?
Do your mixes translate good? not at all? Is it because of your monitors or possibly your room?

What do you not like about your converters? Are they noisy? Do they sound veiled or shallow? Or are you OK with them? Have you listened to stuff you have recorded in your place over a better system and heard any differences? I recorded a bunch of stuff over my gear and took it to a friend's place with some really good monitors and playback converters as well as a well balanced control room and realized my stuff sounded great over his system. Pointed out that my monitoring environment was making me mix / eq poorly.

What do you not like about your preamp? Is it noisy? too colored? Too transparent?

Do you allready have the ability through your MOTU to record 8 ins? If you are satisfied with your converters, maybe just add a few more channels of preamps.

What is your mic selection like? what do you not like about them?
Are you really going to record live drums? That is a path that may cost you a bundle.


Let us know a bit more.

Tom

[lanervoza]

I appreciate the acoustic advice. If I had a place of my own, I would do it. But I'm still renting and will be moving to another place in 9 months, and this and that, etc. It's not in the cards right now. *As soon as it's feasible* I will treat my room :).

But my mindset is definitely "what would I want in a treated room?"

I don't like my preamps because they're dark, kind of muddy. I'm not a pro or even that experienced, but everything sounds small going through these. I also assume the converters have an influence here.

I don't like my monitors because as I use them more, I can tell that they aren't "balanced" for perhaps lack of a better word. The lows are a little boomy maybe. And the highs don't translate well at all. I usually have to boost quite a bit and hope that it sounds good later, after I've found a mix that I like.

My mic selection is minimal currently. Also working on that... SM57, AT4050. I'm looking at SM7 and R121 next, perhaps (Vox and guitar).

I won't be recording drums for a long time, not before I have more money to burn, that's for sure. My room is relatively tiny.

I think you're right about not needing both the Ensemble and the A2D for conversion. I got carried away a little :). See, this is why it's helpful to "talk"! Would it still be reasonable to have the A2D as a pair of preamps and AD converters to allow for expansion or other simultaneous inputs in the Ensemble. In case I do ever get my band back together. That way I'll have 6 preamps to get me sorted though anything that could come my way short of an orchestra, but that won't be happening I'm pretty sure.

So I still have some blanks:

DI? good for guitar, bass, and keys?

Should I be looking at the D-box for monitor control, DA, and as a possible bonus, summing?

Thanks,
Alex

[T_MIX]

Alex,
I don't know much about the Ensemble or some of the other gear so hopefully someone will pipe in, but the MOTU is a decent interface. I have used less and gotten reasonably good albums from them. It has 2 mic preamps built in (are those the ones you don't like?) and has 8 line level ins and outs on the back.
You can plug several pres into those inputs.It also has ADAT lightpipe in so you can add some nice (up to 8 channels) converters through that port later as well as 2 channels of Apogee or something through the spdif I/O.

The MOTU unit has a built in digital mixer for routing any of the ins to any of the outs, PLUS whatever is coming from your computer or digital inputs, so you should be able to create headphone mixes from that already.
Until you get your tracking ,preamp and monitor set up rocking and rolling (including the aforementioned acoustic treatments), I don't know if I'd even be thinking of summing boxes and the like. Get familiar with mixing and automating in the box first.

I personally think you should look into some portable acoustic treatments, then upgrade your monitors, then add a variety of preamps and mics to your arsenal before looking into new convertors and summing mixers. I don't think you have seen the full quality of your existing set up yet. I can't over emphasize how much differences an acoustically good environment will help your mixing and tracking. It can make so much more impact on your sound than many upgrades will. I'd also tryout something like a clean preamp (Heck a DMP-3 is pretty cheap) to start unless you have the cash for something higher end. And adding to your mic selection. Sometimes just using the wrong mic for the source makes things sound really bad.

Those are my opinions obviously, and I might totally change my mind if I could see and hear what you presently can do.

Hope that at least gives some fodder for thought.

Tom

[mortlar]

I'm not a pro on this at all. I'm in very much the same position as you are. Untreated room, ok speakers. Sm 57 and a ksm 27. Just sold my fireface to "upgrade" to ensemble (at least it's more expensive). The most logical step for me would be microphones, monitors, headphones, preamps, and THEN buy the ensemble. Went for it anyways. Going to buy headphones and microphones when i can afford them.

[jdier]

I am far from an expert, but your set up does not look terrible to me.

Personal thought would be to move slow. If you are convinced that your MOTU preamps are the cause of your dark muddy vocals get a new preamp. An easy first step would be an FMR RNP. Loads of people here can attest that they are not dark. I happen to love mine, some people do not like them or find them boring, but I have never heard anyone say they are dark.

This also solves your DI problem as the RNP has two DI's built right in and they are very nice sounding.

On this recording (Heptane – R. Mutt – Music at Last.fm) every bass part was DI through the RNP. On the song Hipshake the Strat guitar was DI'ed through it, and all of the vocals on the entire album (save a few BGVs) went through it.

Mics are a hard choice but the SM7 you are looking at is one that I really like. I might suggest something like an AKG414. Those two plus your SM57 will get you pretty far.

I have never heard the Yamaha monitors, but in my opinion, monitors are a very personal/subjective thing. I use NS10's and love them but others think I am crazy. I just had my first professional mastering experience and the engineer mentioned that my mixes were well put together and balanced, so I am happy with that.

Good luck. hope you have fun.

Jim

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by FossilTooth

Ethan, you sly dog!

Nothing sly about it, and that's what I've been saying for 25 years now, long before I was in this business.

Sadly, the advice continues to fall on deaf ears, and the folks who need bass traps and other treatment the most pursue new mics and mic pres and other gear anyway.

--Ethan

[T_MIX]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Sadly, the advice continues to fall on deaf ears, and the folks who need bass traps and other treatment the most pursue new mics and mic pres and other gear anyway.

--Ethan

It is unfortunate but true.
Funny, because for less than the price of most new pres they can make some real headway with their sound by even building their own panels.
It is not that hard and it is extremely rewarding.

[lanervoza]

OK OK...when I move into my new room, I'll take some pictures and ask for advice as to how to treat it :).

I think I just got too frustrated with my sound and got impatient.

Thanks,
Alex

[T_MIX]

Alex,
I've been there time and time again, and thrown money at it hoping it would fix things. Generally I was really disappointed.
Good luck with your room and your patience!

Tom

[thefirehooligan]

nothing frustrating about treating your room a little bit now to make it translate better.

I built some traps for my old room, along with a cloud for above the mix position, some 703 panels and a diffusion panel. i had a pair of 703 panels behind the monitors to keep from getting reflections from the rear, keep the ceiling live besides the cloud because the floor was carpet, another pair of 703 panels on the side walls about half way down, the bass traps in the rear corners, and a last pair of 703 panels in the rear to cut some of the reflections down from the rear wall.

Now i have moved to another room, thats about twice the size. I moved all my treatment here (filled the drilled holes in the old ceiling and walls), and set it up. Worked well enough and im going to work on adding some more needed treatment on my vacation. Its going to be cheaper because i have 75% of what i need already.

Remember the treatment is movable as long as your not glueing foam to the walls:)

I think everyone else is doing a great job on the recommendations, so i leave them at it.

Thats my piece for today,

Rob

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by lanervoza

I think I just got too frustrated with my sound and got impatient.

Nothing wrong with that Alex. The error was thinking new gear is the answer when what you really need is bass traps and other acoustic treatment. Just like you can buy a new microphone and take it to your new studio when you move, the same applies to acoustic treatment. (As long as you don't buy foam and glue it permanently to your walls. )

--Ethan

[TheGetDown]

IMO, at the level of gear you're working with, your money could be spent MUCH better than on the dangerous box. Spend it on front end!

[bitflipper]

Ethan is right. If you're looking for a high bang/buck ratio, acoustical treatments can't be beat. You can still do something even if you're in a rented apartment. Just make some broadband absorbers as free-standing gobos, simple frames to hold 4" of 703. No permanent alterations to the room, can be reconfigured for different applications, and you can take them with you when you move.

By the way, the A7s are excellent monitors, although they might be a little light on the low end if you make bottom-heavy music. Too bad the ADAM subs are so pricey...I ended up getting P11s, the next step up from the A7. Slightly larger woofers and enclosure, they added enough bottom for my needs. Absolutely love 'em.