NEW PREAMP/CHANNEL STRIP VS. PLUG-INS?

[DIGI ENT]

Im looking to beef up and sweeten my vocals in my project studio and Im stuck with either purchasing a new pre/eq/compressor/de-esser or plug ins that could do the same. Here's the rundown on the gear I own.

Mac G4 Dual 1GHz w/ 1.5gb RAM(maxed)
BLUE Bluebird Mic
Apogee Ensemble
M-audio Firewire 1814
ProTools 7.3
Logic Express 7.2
Dynaudio BM5A Speakers

I am using the Ensemble in stand alone mode for the pres and converters ala TOSLINK to my 1814 to record in Pro Tools and back out TOSLINK. The Dynaudios are connected to the Ensemble. The vocals is "to clean", so i use plugins like DIGI EQ3 and compressor. However, I am not pleased with the results. Should I purchase an pre like Focusrite's VoiceMaster Pro, Aphex 230 (or something under that price range) that has comp/eq/de-esser, or should I buy plugs like Ozone 3, Waves Power Pack, etc. Need to make a final decision within the next month so all feedback will be took into consideration and greatly appreciated. Thanx

D.Ragland

[matt82aust]

I would say other.. MH Channelstrip

[dickiefunk]

Get a really decent pre or channel strip :-

DAV BG 1

Safe Sound P1

[DIGI ENT]

Thanks for the suggestions. The DAV BG 1 and the Sound Safe are both great units, but the Ensemble pre's are also as good. They are just very clean and transparent. Im looking to add some color either before going into Pro Tools or afterards in the mix. The MH Channel Strip plugs look real interesting. Anybody else with suggestions?

D.Ragland

[jslevin]

If the vocals are too thin, odds are the issue is already there when it hits the mic. I'd look into your acoustics and mic placement. The after-the-fact measures amount to turd-polishing ... attack the problem at the source.

There is no magic box.

JSL

[DIGI ENT]

Originally Posted by jslevin

If the vocals are too thin, odds are the issue is already there when it hits the mic. I'd look into your acoustics and mic placement. The after-the-fact measures amount to turd-polishing ... attack the problem at the source.

There is no magic box.

JSL

The vocals are far from thin. Im recording in a vocal booth made out of 1 inch MDF with auralex foam. It's just that I dont have and eq/compression on the vocals before they hit ProTools, so between the transparent Bluebird and the transparent Emsemble, theres no character. I would definitely try new mic placement techniques. Any suggestions?

[Unclenny]

My vox took a turn for the better when I picked up a decent used channel strip. In my case it was a Trident 4T.

Once you work out mic placement issues there is a lot to be said for getting things warmed up a little before you hit your DAW.

[thermos]

Don't buy a cheap channelstrip , such as the ones you mentioned. Absolutely not worth it. Hardware eq, compression, and deessing don't get better than plugs until you get up there pricewise. Get a good pre with some hair (if thats what you want) and do everything else in the box.

Out of the plugins you mentioned, the massey ones are good. (Not a fan of MH channelstrip). The new Urs plug is insane. The first time I've ever gotten an absolutely great vocal sound without mixing through my hardware la3a.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by DIGI ENT

The vocals are far from thin. Im recording in a vocal booth made out of 1 inch MDF with auralex foam.

Well, that could make them thin.

It's just that I dont have and eq/compression on the vocals before they hit ProTools, so between the transparent Bluebird and the transparent Emsemble, theres no character.

You can have plenty of character in a vocal track without deliberately muddying the signal path. You certainly don't require compression and EQ to tape in order to have a great sounding track.

I would definitely try new mic placement techniques. Any suggestions?

I don't know anything about what you're doing, anything about the voice or the material, or much about the room. Suggestions would be to read a lot about mic technique and then experiment a lot. Just remember, everybody out there can buy more stuff, but how many will actually work to improve their skills?

Beyond that, I think I'd go for M-H ChannelStrip and a selection of Massey plugs.

JSL

[Daniel Antix]

i wouldn't be using ozone on voice... although i wouldn't use it at all... i don't really like it. maybe try some different mics before you buy anything... borrow off a mate or hire one... also download some demo versions of plugins and try them out, i wouldn't go buying a preamp that has all the bells and whistles... just get a decent preamp (if that's what you want) if it's got a compressor or eq on it bonus but don't narrow it down to something with everything. I'm looking at the TLA Fatboy and Ivory5050 atm go check them out.

[AllAboutTone]

Good to see that the OTHER is getting the most spikes/votes.

[Tibbon]

My opinion?

Ditch PT and the M-Audio. Get Logic Pro. Get an SCA kit with an A12 and N72. Get a RNC and RNL. Get a Speck ASC-T eq. Pick up a pair of cheap ribbons (I like fatheads myself). The ensemble preamps are pretty good. You can use those for clean things.

Just my opinions. not much money, but better sounds and better workflow.

[DIGI ENT]

Much respect to everyone who posted. Tibbon, I am planning to purchase logic pro as soon as I learn logic express. JSL, I am recording rap, rnb, and reggae artists. I have a small booth, 3X4X10 1inch mdf all around with auralex foam covering about 70%. The artist faces the mic/pop filter directly will pick up the Modern Recording Techniques book tomorrow. Whut do ya think?

[Tibbon]

Make sure the acoustics are good. Don't just assume that covering the room in foam does the trick. Bass traps, etc..

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by DIGI ENT

Much respect to everyone who posted. Tibbon, I am planning to purchase logic pro as soon as I learn logic express. JSL, I am recording rap, rnb, and reggae artists. I have a small booth, 3X4X10 1inch mdf all around with auralex foam covering about 70%. The artist faces the mic/pop filter directly will pick up the Modern Recording Techniques book tomorrow. Whut do ya think?

Is the booth really 3 x 4? As in, feet? That is your whole problem right there. Not enough room for the singer to breathe!

JSL

[DIGI ENT]

Yup. 3 feet by 4 feet. That's what I'm stuck with. I know I can make it work. Acoustically, what should I add/subtract?

[DIGI ENT]

Yup. 3 feet by 4 feet. That's what I'm stuck with. I know I can make it work. Acoustically, what should I add/subtract?

[A LaMere]

My general rule of thumb in this situation would be... Start at the source.

Start by improving the source. So, for me,... I'd definitely look at a new preamp or channel strip option. In the digital realm, I really think you do need a great pre, eq, and compression before going onto disk... Truth is, it ISN'T tape... so in my mind, the rules for tape.. don't necassarily apply to the digital realm as much.

A different/great pre or channel strip is going to change more at the end of the mix than a new plugin will in my opinion. Start by changing the source... and add the extra 5% by using a plug in.
Start with a great sound... then make it "greater" via eq and compression plug-ins...

[CKK]

I'm really happy with my Chandler Germanium for vox. Very warm and can get dirty as hell.

When you get a REALLY sweet signal down "on tape", you dont need to do that much with plugins afterwards. Even logics own eq/comps can be used with good results when having a great signal.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by A LaMere

My general rule of thumb in this situation would be... Start at the source.

Start by improving the source. So, for me,... I'd definitely look at a new preamp or channel strip option.

I don't know if you were trying to be funny, but ... the preamp is not the source by a long shot. The source is the source. The room is the source's context. From there it goes to the mic, through a cable ... and then to the preamp.

Of course you already know this. Seems like you have the right rule of thumb, but you don't actually understand how it applies to recording.

Originally Posted by DIGI ENT

Yup. 3 feet by 4 feet. That's what I'm stuck with. I know I can make it work. Acoustically, what should I add/subtract?

Subtract the booth. it is simply not tenable. You are recording foam basically. That amount of space prevents you from positioning the mic effectively and probably keeps the singer from breathing properly, let alone actually getting comfortable. Your average living room will yield better recordings than a booth like this. You will be better off with no "treatment" than with this booth.

I can't be the only one who thinks this, right? Somebody want to speak up here?

JSL

[blayz2002]

Can't comment on the booth (but does seem kinda tight) but sounds to me if you got a clean sounding mic and pre, then you either swap the pre out for more vibey API or Great River, Neve type or you need to change the mic. The plugins can help add more character but you need to capture that going in first.

[DIGI ENT]

I got warm vox b4 but I was using a Tampa pre out spdif to the 1814. I thought the pre's in the Ensemble and some plugs could do it, so I sold the tampa. I'm looking at the Trident 4T, Joe Meek OneQ, Chandler Germanium, Dbx or another pre with eq/compressor used under $700. JSL, instead of dumping the booth, whut else could you honestly recommend to improve the acoustics?

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by DIGI ENT

I got warm vox b4 but I was using a Tampa pre out spdif to the 1814. I thought the pre's in the Ensemble and some plugs could do it, so I sold the tampa. I'm looking at the Trident 4T, Joe Meek OneQ, Chandler Germanium, Dbx or another pre with eq/compressor used under $700. JSL, instead of dumping the booth, whut else could you honestly recommend to improve the acoustics?

To improve the acoustics, look up some local ASA members and get one of them to do some consulting for your studio.

[lowfreq33]

If you absolutely CAN'T ditch the booth (which, btw, you really should), forget absorption and get some diffusion. This will scatter reflections and open up the sound.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by DIGI ENT

JSL, instead of dumping the booth, whut else could you honestly recommend to improve the acoustics?

Nothing. Literally nothing. You've literally put yourself in a box.

There is nothing wrong with your Ensemble. You can spend the next ten years fiddling with different gear choices if you want. That's the easier and more fun thing to do, and you certainly wouldn't be the first. You might find things that you like incrementally better, but you can't run from acoustics.

Any time you spend fiddling with gear before dealing with your acoustics is totally wasted. That is the honest truth, so you might as well just face up to it now. Trust me, I speak from experience.

JSL

[island-dave]

Originally Posted by jslevin

... Subtract the booth. it is simply not tenable. You are recording foam basically. That amount of space prevents you from positioning the mic effectively and probably keeps the singer from breathing properly, let alone actually getting comfortable. Your average living room will yield better recordings than a booth like this. You will be better off with no "treatment" than with this booth.

I can't be the only one who thinks this, right? Somebody want to speak up here?

JSL

if you read some of the liner notes from the late 50's early 60's, many of Rudy Van Gelder's recordings took place in his parent's living room, and they didn't turn out too bad ;-) (just imagine Miles Davis chillin' on Rudy's parents couch talking sports with his Dad between takes). even though he was way behind Roy DuNann, IMHO, he was THE engineer for years and years in the jazz world.

Think outside the box, or booth as it were, and see if you can find another room close by and run cables and a small web cam to it (to act as your virtual studio window). it would be a lot better than what you've got now. I'm a big guy and just thinking about that booth makes me claustrophobic! i'm not even sure I could turn around in there!

I'd use your current "booth" as an isolation booth for cranking up guitar amps...

good luck!

[jslevin]

Think outside the box, or booth as it were, and see if you can find another room close by and run cables and a small web cam to it (to act as your virtual studio window). it would be a lot better than what you've got now.

Exactly. RVG was a genius. But the more general lesson here is to stop doing things that "look like pro audio" and start understanding and dealing with sound.

(On a related note, everyone can get rid of their Avalon gear now.)

JSL

[Audionaut]

Just get the SPL Track One.
Everything of theirs has amazing specs (on paper) and sounds even better in use.
Although it is an "all in one box" you don't sacrifice quality for quantity as SPL tends to make really intuitive and simple boxes thet "just work." Take a look at the Transient Designer. They could have put four individual attack, threshold and release controls on each channel to control the quad envelope followers and a VCA gain, mix and blend controls, but instead they went with 2 knobs "attack" and "sustain" - and that box KILLS!
All of the "behind the scenes" architecture works quite elegantly in SPL's channel strips and they allow for astonishing results to be dialed in very quickly and easily.

It'll cost you less than $700.00 for a PRE/DI/DeESSER/EQ/Compressor and you'll probably even have enough change to upgrade to a Landahl input transformer.

my $.02