01v (version 1) vs Mackie Onyx 1220 w/Firewire

[jeswa]

What do you think is a cleaner D/A signal path for monitoring?

The 01V (version 1, not 96) + Toslink option + RME 9636 PCI card
VS.
Mackie Onyx 1220 with Firewire option

I don't do too much recording, so pre's, eq's, and other mixer functions aren't as vital.

[rokn4jc]

Well if you want to use the 1220 for monitoring, keep in mind the FW option only has a stereo return.
Just FYI

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by jeswa

What do you think is a cleaner D/A signal path for monitoring?

The 01V (version 1, not 96) + Toslink option + RME 9636 PCI card

Is that signal path you describe above the actual path you'll use for monitoring?
Reason I ask is that the D/A converters in the 01V's "Monitor Outputs" are only 18-bits *and* they don't do any dithering, they truncate 24- or 20-bit words.

And by "Toslink option" do you mean a Toslink card that goes into the card slot rather than the hard-wired coaxial digital output (S/PDIF) on the 01V? In either case, it's really the D/A converters in the RME that you're comparing to the Mackie, yes?

[jeswa]

Is that signal path you describe above the actual path you'll use for monitoring?
Reason I ask is that the D/A converters in the 01V's "Monitor Outputs" are only 18-bits *and* they don't do any dithering, they truncate 24- or 20-bit words."

Hmmm. I'm a little confused. 18 bits?
I was monitoring directly from the stereo outs, because I was using omni outs 1-4 for the other 4 channels in a 5.1 setup. Regardless, I'm mainly monitoring in stereo.

"And by "Toslink option" do you mean a Toslink card that goes into the card slot rather than the hard-wired coaxial digital output (S/PDIF) on the 01V? In either case, it's really the D/A converters in the RME that you're comparing to the Mackie, yes?

The RME 9636 is a dual Toslink PCI card (2 in ports/2 out ports).
The "Toslink option" I'm referring to is the Yamaha MY8-AT ADAT card for the 01v. So in this case, I suppose I'm referring to the converters in the 01v.

So, based on that info, what do you think of my original question.
btw, thanks!

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by jeswa

Hmmm. I'm a little confused. 18 bits?
I was monitoring directly from the stereo outs, because I was using omni outs 1-4 for the other 4 channels in a 5.1 setup. Regardless, I'm mainly monitoring in stereo.

Well, the D/A converters feeding the Main Stereo Outputs (the big XLR connectors) are 20 bit, and they also truncate larger words. I was referring to the Monitor Outputs (which are usually used to feed the control room monitor amp -- maybe I'm misremembering & they're actually labeled "Control Room Outputs" on the 01V). Those D/A converters are 18 bit. And I'm pretty sure the Omni Outputs have 18 bit D/A converters on them too.

Originally Posted by jeswa

The "Toslink option" I'm referring to is the Yamaha MY8-AT ADAT card for the 01v. So in this case, I suppose I'm referring to the converters in the 01v.

Oh, the MY8-AT is a lightpipe card. That routes digital signals only; there's no converter in there at all. You can however route un-truncated 24 bit signals or dither down to 16 bits via this MY8-AT

The only D/A converters in an 01V are on the Stereo Outputs, the Monitor Outputs, the (4) Omni Outputs, and the Tape Outputs (RCA jacks on the top right corner).

[jeswa]

Ok. I am using the Stereo outs.
So right now I'm just using the 01v as a D/A monitoring source (right?).
In your opinion, what do you think is a cleaner D/A signal path for monitoring:
- My current setup
- Mackie Onyx with Firewire
- RME Multiface > monitor controller (Samson, SM Patch, Central Station, etc...)

Also,

You can however route un-truncated 24 bit signals or dither down to 16 bits via this MY8-AT

Should I be doing this?

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by jeswa

Ok. I am using the Stereo outs.
So right now I'm just using the 01v as a D/A monitoring source (right?).
In your opinion, what do you think is a cleaner D/A signal path for monitoring:
- My current setup
- Mackie Onyx with Firewire
- RME Multiface > monitor controller (Samson, SM Patch, Central Station, etc...)

Frankly I think that until you step up to something on the order of a Benchmark DAC1 it's all the same; there won't be appreciable differences between cheaper D/A converters. (Note: I'm not saying there might not be audible differences, just that those differences are not "qualitatively hierarchical" -- it's unlikely one could objectively demonstrate that one is significantly better than the other.)

A Benchmark strapped onto the S/PDIF output of the 01V would be killer, though. Short of that, my humble advice is to just keep using what you've got, doing it the way you're doing things, and worry about stuff that has a more profound affect on your sound than the monitoring D/A.

[chickencoop]

fyi/just in case you're using a pc: with the onyx firewire series, it's also worth checking on the mackie forums and/or contacting their customer service to see if what you have is compatible with the firewire i/o card before you buy one.

[jeswa]

A Benchmark strapped onto the S/PDIF output of the 01V would be killer, though. Short of that, my humble advice is to just keep using what you've got, doing it the way you're doing things, and worry about stuff that has a more profound affect on your sound than the monitoring D/A.

So in this case the signal will stay undithered and purely digital until it reached the Benchmark (or DA10, or whatever...)

Wouldn't the 01v's noise still factor into the equation?
Wouldn't it be better to go directly (despite losing the mixer's flexibility) from RME>DAC?
I'd rather not, I usually work with 2 computers and would like to monitor them both.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by jeswa

Wouldn't the 01v's noise still factor into the equation?

Which noise is that, exactly?
Remember, it's a digital mixer.

Originally Posted by jeswa

Wouldn't it be better to go directly (despite losing the mixer's flexibility) from RME>DAC?

Not knowing your goals or work methodology I can't answer that authoritatively; I know for me, I would *MUCH* prefer to have the routing and processing capabilities of the mixer than to have some marginal (if not mythical) improvement in monitoring accuracy.

[jeswa]

Bob, You mentioned this before

You can however route un-truncated 24 bit signals or dither down to 16 bits via this MY8-AT

Should I be doing this?

As for your latest comments, I'm pretty much sold.
I'm thinking this setup:

PC>RME 9636>01v via SPDIF IN
Mac Book>Fireface>01v via Lightpipe IN
Then
01v SPDIF OUT>Benchmark DAC-1>Monitors (Or should I still be using an attenuator here?)

Is there a cheaper DAC that you would recommend? I've read the reviews and it seems like below the DAC-1 and DA10 it's a steep drop in quality.
I know that you get what you pay for, but I thought I'd ask.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by jeswa

I'm thinking this setup:

PC>RME 9636>01v via SPDIF IN
Mac Book>Fireface>01v via Lightpipe IN
Then
01v SPDIF OUT>Benchmark DAC-1>Monitors (Or should I still be using an attenuator here?)

Is there a cheaper DAC that you would recommend? I've read the reviews and it seems like below the DAC-1 and DA10 it's a steep drop in quality.
I know that you get what you pay for, but I thought I'd ask.

Benchmark DAC1 has an attenuater already, no need for any additional components to adjust monitor speaker volume.

No, there are no cheaper DACs that I'd recommend. Well... the Lucid DA9624 is pretty nice, but it's not as good as the Benchmark and it's not that much cheaper, so I'll stick w/ my original assessment: no, I wouldn't recommend any others.

As for whether or not to dither the lightpipe outputs, that depends what you're sending via these outputs, where you're sending it to, and what you're planning on doing with it once it gets there.

[jeswa]

Bob,
Thanks for your suggestions.
I'd like to go for the Benchmark, but I'm gonna try out an Apogee Mini-DAC first (I have relatively easy access to one ATM).
Funny enough, I've always preferred monitoring out of the XLR mains, I have a close friend with an 01v who always gave me a hard time for saying that the XLR mains "sounded better", I will definitely forward him that page of specs from the manual! Also, would it be better to monitor from the 01v's ADAT optical out or the S/PDIF out?

[jeswa]

Update:
I'm now happily set up with my trusty old 01v connected to a Lavry DA10 via the 01V's S/PDIF output.

Weird thing is...
With my input channels set at -0db and the Stereo Out set to -0db,
playing a bass-heavy recording (16 bit wav file, clean - no distortion) I'm digitally clipping into (PC connected via ADAT option in) & out of the 01v UNLESS I manually lower the offending channels -4db or more.

The 01v's Stereo LED's are going into the red.

There are no analog signals present, just a stereo input via 2 of the 8 ADAT optical inputs and a Stereo Out via S/PDIF.

This is an initialized preset with no EQ/Aux/Dynamics/etc. activity.

Should this be happening?

[Coyoteous]

- no, not if everything is unity gain and there is no processing, summing/panning, etc. You might want to check and see if there is any dither going on - in particular, noise-shaped...

[jeswa]

There is only panning on the stereo input channel (hard left/right), besides that, dither is off. Still searching...

[Coyoteous]

Right, by panning, I meant anything other than hard L/R. Some hardware/software just doesn't pass an unaltered bitstream. I would have thought the 01V would, though. Good luck and let us know if you find the problem.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by jeswa

With my input channels set at -0db and the Stereo Out set to -0db, playing a bass-heavy recording (16 bit wav file, clean - no distortion) I'm digitally clipping into (PC connected via ADAT option in) & out of the 01v UNLESS I manually lower the offending channels -4db or more.

The 01v's Stereo LED's are going into the red.

(snip)

Should this be happening?

I presume the WAV file is being played back in a DAW application of some sort...are there any meters in that application? What do they show?

When you say the file is "clean - no distortion" are you basing that purely on what the file *sounds* like? How were you monitoring the file when you ascertained that?

Is it a stereo file or a mono file?

Where did you get this file in the first place? Did you record it yourself? (if so, how, where, using what equipment?)

Sorry for the first degree ("Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!") but your answers can help track down how & where this level mismatch might be occurring. Off the top of my head, my first guess is that you're experiencing a symptom of the imprecise metering common to lots of affordable digital recording equipment. iow, maybe the file *isn't* really clipping the Yamaha's audio circuits, it's just triggering the meters to indicate overs...or, alternatively, maybe the audio file really *is* exceeding 0dBFS and your DAW's meters simply aren't indicating that.

[jeswa]

I presume the WAV file is being played back in a DAW application of some sort...are there any meters in that application? What do they show?

Wavelab, Nuendo, etc. None of them show clipping.

When you say the file is "clean - no distortion" are you basing that purely on what the file *sounds* like? How were you monitoring the file when you ascertained that?

Well, as I mentioned above, these are recordings I'm familiar with (i've tried lots of different ones. I know them very intimately and they are not distorted or overdriven in any way, just bass-heavy.
No clipping out of the DAW application yet the signal is clipping into and out of the 01v. Pure digital signal, no dither. 16 bit, 44.1. The Lavry receives a locked signal at 44.1

Is it a stereo file or a mono file?

Stereo, I just tried some mono signals and some of them clip.

Where did you get this file in the first place? Did you record it yourself? (if so, how, where, using what equipment?)

Some of my own mastered tracks ripped from CD or played directly (wav, aif), some CD's (Thriller - "Billy Jean", Led Zeppelin - "Immigrant Song"), some mp3's.

Sorry for the first degree ("Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!") but your answers can help track down how & where this level mismatch might be occurring. Off the top of my head, my first guess is that you're experiencing a symptom of the imprecise metering common to lots of affordable digital recording equipment. iow, maybe the file *isn't* really clipping the Yamaha's audio circuits, it's just triggering the meters to indicate overs...or, alternatively, maybe the audio file really *is* exceeding 0dBFS and your DAW's meters simply aren't indicating that.

Thanks and no sweat, you are offering exactly what I'm asking, any questions I may have overlooked, so again thanks.
As far as your last response, the metering seems to be precise.

Setup A:

• All channels on 01v set to 0db on a freshly initialized preset.
• DAW (AMD Athlon X2 based PC / RME 9636) connected to 01v via ADAT optical option input channels 17-18
• 01v out S/PDIF to LAVRY DA10 (locked @ 44.1) to JBL LSR 6328p monitors

Results:
File A plays from Wavelab with no visible clipping.

It does not show clipping on the 01v's channel meters and does not clip on the 01v's main stereo meters, it sounds normal on my monitors.

File B plays out of Wavelab with no visible clipping, but is bass heavy.

It shows clipping on the 01v's channel meters and clips on the 01v's main stereo meters, it sounds distorted on my monitors.

Setup B:

• All channels on 01v set to 0db on a freshly initialized preset.
• DAW (AMD Athlon X2 based PC / RME 9636) connected to 01v via S/PDIF coaxial digital input
• 01v out S/PDIF to LAVRY DA10 (locked @ 44.1) to JBL LSR 6328p monitors

Results:
Clean signal, no distortion when monitoring the S/PDIF input directly (ie. Stere Cascade "On").

Distortion (same as in Setup A) occurs when routing the S/PDIF digital to Channels 13-14 via "flip mode" ans 13-14 fader is set to 0db.

Conclusion:
So it seems that routing a bass-heavy (or generally loud) track to an "analog" fader channel on the 01v set to 0db I get distortion.

I've been using this exact setup (minus the Lavry and JBL's - which definitely are not the problem - headphone jack of the 01v confirms this) without trouble until now.

Any ideas about what might be the issue?

[Bob Ross]

Double-check what value the channel Trim control (I think it's on the same page as the channel EQ) defaults to when you initialize a scene on the 01V. I have a sneaking recollection that it winds up at +8dB or something decidedly not unity!