Almost afraid to ask this

[myrmidonlord666]

Yes its that stupid of a question. Now onto the questions.

I was looking into getting my first digital recorder, now the ones i could easily find in my price range (I am thinking about 500 - 600 dollars to start off just alittle guitar/rehearsals for my band) only have at most 4 simultaneous recording tracks.

Well now lets say I am recording a rehearsal and i want a slightly better drum sound then 1 mic (Our drummer plays fast, we play metal so 1 mic would sound HORRIBLE and boomy/boxy) Should i use a mixer?

And if i use a mixer, that totally takes levels after its sent out of the mixer to the recorder out of my hands right? Like all i can do to change the level is up or down of all the sound recorded?

NOW heres a question

Instead of buying some digital recorder, could I perhaps get a used ADAT (i have no clue what that means but i've seen it mentioned alittle) on ebay or something that would have more simultaneous recording? (Id say 8 tracks would be so astounding)

I am not asking for sonic miracles but a decent recorded sound by decent i mean drums not a mish mash of ear shattering noises.

Acck i am starting to blur my ideas together incomprehensibly o well if anyone has suggestions id love to hear them.

[peeder]

I have a question I'm almost afraid to ask:

How many piercings, and how much ink? Where?

Answer that, and I'll take up your quest.

[myrmidonlord666]

Ouch that was the type of response i was hoping not to get.

The answer is no piercings, and no tattoos i am just a newb to recording. Perhaps the fact I am in a metal band would bring up those stereotypes, anyways back to my questions at hand.

[slaves666]

buy a used Roland VS-1880, try to get it with the EFX cards in it as well as the CD burner....i think its the VS-1824. you can record 8 tracks at a time, and it sounds great and is portable and easy to use. I still use mine for pre-prod with bands in their rehearsal rooms as well as for my band.

[XSergeantD]

Originally Posted by myrmidonlord666

Ouch that was the type of response i was hoping not to get.

oops. I know I've been one to respond like that, but at least you weren't offended.

Anyway, there's loads of ways and variables to what you're looking for. Sounds like you may just want a simple all in one system. I'm not too familiar with low end multi-track recorders. I don't even recall the ADATs, but check to see if they have mic inputs (I don't recall that they do). If you can't find something with mic inputs you'll need a mixer to send level to your recorder. Wait till after the holiday and I'm sure you'll get some useful answers.

FYI ADAT is Alesis Digital Audio Tape, aka a modified expensive VCR. OK, it's more than just that, but seems like it can be one part of your setup if you want to record up to 8 tracks. You can always add more ADAT machines later as your skills improve and you require more than 8 tracks.

[Scinx]

I highly doubt you want the fun that goes along with true ADATs.

Fun: regular maintenance, cleaning, diagnosing errors, etc.

Of course, the name ADAT is thrown around loosely. I am talking about SVHS tape-based ADAT systems, and not things like the HD24, etc.

[peeder]

Sorry. Hoped you had a sense of humor, given it's your first post and your satanic-style handle.

Anyway, these days we record into computers. You get non-destructive editing, nonlinear access, etc. If you have a computer that was built in this century, you're able to make a go of it with a basic interface and the DAW that comes with it. Presonus is a cheap option, M-Audio is a bit more but you can use Pro Tools with it, which most of the big boys use, so you can grow into that if you want. You back up onto DVD-R's, which are a lot cheaper than tapes or oddball media.

Have fun!

[myrmidonlord666]

Thanks, and no I wasn't offended I expected alot more responses like the first one, considering I said I was in a metal band which seems to be a generic way for alot of people to say (Well I still live in my moms basement, I party every night and I want my band to make it big and be a rock star). Which isn't what I am all about.

I just want to learn to record, and figure recording my band and learning from my mistakes is the best way to start out and get a general idea of what to do and what not to do.

Thanks Ill check into the Roland and the ADAT.

Also for micing drums... How does one position the over heads? I was reading somewhere its best to put them over the bell because if you go to the outer edge you can have a phase issue, and then 2 seconds later I read on a different site the complete opposite.

O yeh i do have a sense of humor It did make me laugh, but I thought you might be serious.

I am not satanist, it originally started as a joke, but it ended up being the name i use on every single message board, and what not.

[8th_note]

I'll expand on Randall's reply....

Forget ADAT. Your best bet is to enter the world of computer recording. If you have a reasonably modern compputer running XP you have the choice of several programs and digital interfaces that will give you the capability you need. Here's a few options:

Program: Reaper has already been mentioned but there's another program that's a little more developed and only costs $75. It's called n-Track Studio and it's very easy to use yet very powerful. You can download the demo version and see if you like it.

Interface without preamps: If you want to get an inexpensive mixer, such as a Mackie 1642VLZ that includes preamps, you can get a straight digital interface such as an M-Audio Delta 1010 that will give you 8 channels for about $400. This is a workhorse of an interface for a very reasonable price.

Interface with preamps: If your computer has firewire capability you can get something like a Presonus FP10 (Firepod) that has 8 preamps for about $400. This interface plus recording software will give you everything you need to record your band.

To get better drum sound you're going to need more mics, more experience, some plugins, and some mixing skill but this setup will get you on your way.

[cjogo]

Differently lean towards the ROLAND system--all in one ---between $500-1000 used

2400> 2480kthtyrt The Boss system are even cheaper--but, less features . Plug & Play ~~ no external gear to buy

[innershock]

don't even think about ADAT.

your best options are (1) computer based solution (2) hardware digital multitrack recorder.

If you eventually want to get into deeper editing/mixing/recording, then you should go for the computer solution (you'll have to get some kind of audio interface with multiple ins to allow for the simultaneous tracks you're recording). not to mention needing 8 or so preamps to mic up your drums, guitars, vox. This solution leaves you a -lot- of variables about what kind of hardware you can get, and probaby won't be as easily portable if thats important to you.

if you just want to jump into recording and keep it simple, then a digital recorder (there are systems by roland, yamaha, korg, fostex..) would be a better bet. these machines are easily portable and can actually provide some pretty deep editing functionality-- so if thats something you're going to be doing a lot of get one that allows you to hook up a mouse/monitor (editing is a bitch with a jog wheel, little buttons, and a tiny lcd screen).

from the sound of what you want to be doing, i think you should go for a digital multitrack. grab one and a few mics and you're ready to go.

[Geoffrey]

maybe one of those all-in-one tascam 8 tracks?

[reddirt]

The suggestion of the VS1824 is right on the money. I use a 1680 (older model), in my teaching job and carry it from room to room like a satchel. In 7 years it has crashed once (the switches are wearing out and 2 got stuck on at the same time.) The sound quality is fine , ease of use is excellent and the portability factor means you will take it to rehearsals and gigs without it feeling like it's all too hard.
It comes with one FX card installed which gives you 2 great sounding stereo fx . It's a bonus but not a necessity if it has the 2nd optional card as well . If you can find one that's had bedroom studio type use at a great price it would be everything you could want.
By the way, one sm57 (better still 2) on O'head and a reasonable kik mic can do a very passable rehearsal drum recording.
Ultimately my suggestion is don't go for the mythical "fantastic sound" of computer based setups; they basically sound little better if any and their unwieldy nature will stop you doing what you originally wanted to do - make music and record it easily.
Cheers, Ross

[Blast9]

I guess the main issue with all-in-one boxes is

1) how many mic inputs do they have.. Or how many individual line inputs for patching in muliple (mic) signals from a desk.

2) How many cheap desks have enough individual outputs to match?

I'd say you need 2 or 3 mic inputs for kit

1 for the lead vox

1 for each cab you're gonna mic up.

Re overheads in a rehearsal room... We put a condenser direrctly over the kit fairly low down, shoulder-height... Amazing how much of the kit you pick up, and how much beefy proximity effect this gives... And you still pick up cymbals.

Kik --- you can get a really punchy sound with a 58 right up against the beater head, i.e. inside the drum, say 1 cm away or so.

[project 114]

if you have a computer with 1g of ramm and atleast 100g of hard space, and a firewire port. I'd get the presonus firepod it's what I've got it's only 499 and when I got it, it came with 120 external hard drive free. I've started more equipment since than but the interface is still my main piece of equipment for recording. It also works really well if you have a mixer with 8 direct outs on it.

[autologic]

+1 on Reaper.

REAPER | About

And dude, your handle made my day.

@peeder...

Anyway, these days we record into computers.

It's just what we do.

[slaves666]

Originally Posted by Blast9

I guess the main issue with all-in-one boxes is

1) how many mic inputs do they have.. Or how many individual line inputs for patching in muliple (mic) signals from a desk.

2) How many cheap desks have enough individual outputs to match?

I'd say you need 2 or 3 mic inputs for kit

1 for the lead vox

1 for each cab you're gonna mic up.

Re overheads in a rehearsal room... We put a condenser direrctly over the kit fairly low down, shoulder-height... Amazing how much of the kit you pick up, and how much beefy proximity effect this gives... And you still pick up cymbals.

Kik --- you can get a really punchy sound with a 58 right up against the beater head, i.e. inside the drum, say 1 cm away or so.

As I stated before the VS1824 has 8 mic inputs, and 18 total tracks plus 100's of virtual ones. You can't get anything better for less $$$.

[Snatchman]

I agree with what's been said so far but...even tho everyone trashes the Adats, one thing that make it a consideration ( at entry level). All in one units, if something breaks, you lose basically your whole " studio"!... ... With Adats, if it break, chuck it out, buy, borrow another and keep on learning/making music and not be frustrated with... " when will my DAW/computer be fixed!".. ... I 've seen it happen many times!( YMMV)

[Blast9]

Wow... amazing features on those things!

[myrmidonlord666]

Thanks for the responses

I think i am going to check out the roland at this time, and maybe later look at expanding to the computer, mainly because At this point in my life I have to drive 2 hours to jam, and lugging a computer along instead of just leaving my recorder set up at the drummers house would be a hassle. A hassle I am not willing to put up with at this time.

BUT I think ill check out reaper and general overall computer recording you know because thats what you guys do these days

[jaysunice]

+1000 for the Roland VS series. I think that would be exactly what you're looking for with a very small learning curve. The price range will be just right -- if you go the used route you'll be even better off with higher quality/more features.

Check out rolandus.com and watch some videos/tutorials on there.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by myrmidonlord666

Thanks for the responses

I think i am going to check out the roland at this time, and maybe later look at expanding to the computer, mainly because At this point in my life I have to drive 2 hours to jam, and lugging a computer along instead of just leaving my recorder set up at the drummers house would be a hassle. A hassle I am not willing to put up with at this time.

BUT I think ill check out reaper and general overall computer recording you know because thats what you guys do these days

Given those constraints, forget any of this. If you want a remote rig that is easy to set up/tear down, I would just get a stereo pair for the room. Setting up the mics just to record the drums will take a half-hour at least to get decent sound out of them. If you don't want to leave crap with your drummer (may be wise) then just get a little handheld recorder with a decent pair of mics and a stand and place them in X-Y in the right spot in the room to hear everything. Two minutes. And take a picture of what the band's performance sounds like. Maybe a Zoom H4 would work for you and do everything for $300...I don't know much about these things.

If you have some great takes you can give them to someone good (e.g. a mastering shop) to sweeten them up. No it won't sound like a studio record but neither will what you're considering under those circumstances. This gets the hassle out of the way and lets your band play.

...And getting the band disciplined enough to sound good into an X-Y pair will only help the sound of that band live and in the studio in the future...

[myrmidonlord666]

Not really trying to get a studio record or hell even a demo out of this. Just recordings to here what we sound like before we go and spend money on recording, that way we make sure we got all the little minor details worked out, before we get in the studio. That way we don't waste our time or the engineers.

Theres a roland on ebay for 499, think ill pick it up. To send the tracks to my computer if I wanted to burn them or mix them with a recording software, I need an A and D converter correct?

[peeder]

Originally Posted by myrmidonlord666

Not really trying to get a studio record or hell even a demo out of this. Just recordings to here what we sound like before we go and spend money on recording, that way we make sure we got all the little minor details worked out, before we get in the studio. That way we don't waste our time or the engineers.

Theres a roland on ebay for 499, think ill pick it up. To send the tracks to my computer if I wanted to burn them or mix them with a recording software, I need an A and D converter correct?

No the converters are in the roland. The roland will interface with the computer somehow...maybe by "sneakernet" printing CD-Rs with the audio data and bringing it into the computer that way. The Zoom H4 I mentioned just plugs right into the computer and dumps the data into a DAW like a digital camera does into a photo program.

Think through all you're going to need: mics, cables, stands, power, headphones...time to learn how to do all of this, to fiddle with the setup... You might be embarking on a longer and costlier journey than you were thinking...

[No4PCs]

vs 2400 used, then you go to pro studio to mix/master.

[cjogo]

Originally Posted by myrmidonlord666

Not really trying to get a studio record or hell even a demo out of this. Just recordings to here what we sound like before we go and spend money on recording, that way we make sure we got all the little minor details worked out, before we get in the studio. That way we don't waste our time or the engineers.

Theres a roland on ebay for 499, think ill pick it up. To send the tracks to my computer if I wanted to burn them or

mix them with a recording software, I need an A and D converter correct?

V-Fire is the box for VS to PC ...I mix totally inside the Roland DAW ---mastering stages/plugins and burner all that box

[myrmidonlord666]

I definetally realize it could get quite costly, but its something I enjoy. So i figure buying a mic here and there, learning techniques as i can, alittle trial and error. In the end it will all be worth it.

BTW when you say stereo pair can you explain what that means? Like is 2 mics connected to the handheld or something else, remember i am a total newb for the most part. Although i've learned alot, atleast enough information about many options to read some reviews and hopefully make a somewhat intelligent choice, or atleast enough to learn from a dumb choice

[peeder]

Originally Posted by myrmidonlord666

I definetally realize it could get quite costly, but its something I enjoy. So i figure buying a mic here and there, learning techniques as i can, alittle trial and error. In the end it will all be worth it.

BTW when you say stereo pair can you explain what that means? Like is 2 mics connected to the handheld or something else, remember i am a total newb for the most part. Although i've learned alot, atleast enough information about many options to read some reviews and hopefully make a somewhat intelligent choice, or atleast enough to learn from a dumb choice

OK then...

A stereo pair of mics is just that...a matched pair of mics that you connect to your recorder (or, as on the H4, are built-into it). There are a few standard ways to record with a stereo pair. You'll want to pick up a book on the basics of recording and learn all of this stuff. In fact, I would get the book first and the gear later when you have an idea what you want to do.

If it's a really good book, you'll end up wanting to spend $2.5M on building a great studio from the ground up and fitting it with everything great studios have.

[krenski]

Hey peeder,

A couple of quick thoughts:

1) If you're really just using this to work on pre-production ideas before you go to a studio, why not just get a decent stereo recorder and mics and play with the placement in the room until it sounds ok? Spend your time on the songs and not the technical details.

OR

2) I second the idea of getting into a cheap computer rig. Maybe a Firewire mixer like the Alesis MultiMix 16? It's got eight mic preamps, a firewire interface for computer recording and knobs to play with (might also come in handy in a live situation at some point). It comes with Cubase LE so you would have basic software to get going.

Once you get a handle on basic recording with the computer it will be really easy to try new things with your song arrangements, which is a big bonus.

I would stay away from the all in one recorders. They can seem enticing because they're all in one, but they can be pretty limiting if you're needs/interest grows. I've used analog, ADATs, hard disk recorders, and computer DAWs and I definitely think the DAW is the easiest once you get the basics down.

If you do choose the all in one route the Roland line IS pretty easy to use.

I would also get a copy of this book:
Mackie Compact Mixers by Rudy Trubitt

http://www.amazon.com/Mackie-Compact...687671&sr=1-16

The book is great for teaching you basic signal flow and it's basic knowledge that you can apply to any recording situation.

Have fun!

[peeder]

Originally Posted by krenski

Hey peeder,

A couple of quick thoughts:

Er, I think you are addressing myrmidon lord 666, the OP. And thanks for supporting my point of view.