Focusrite Saffire Pro vs EMU 1820m

[willsing]

Hi,
I'm getting another case of gearlust as the grass is starting to look greener over yonder....... I have been really happy with my 1820m for the past three years, but have recently been eyeballing the Saffire Pro 10 hoping to switch over to firewire.

I had read a review on the Saffire LE, by Martin Walker, in which he stated:

"....but while the Emu 1820M, as always, turned in a refined performance, the Saffire LE took the lead with even tighter and more focused imaging, making the Emu sound a little ‘woolly’ by comparison. Emu’s range has done incredibly well to retain my personal vote for ‘best audio quality for audio interfaces under £500’ for the last two years, but I think it’s finally met its match in the Focusrite Saffire series: the Saffire LE provides truly excellent subjective audio performance for a £239 interface."

So my question is:
Does the Saffire Pro 10 have the same converters and pres as the LE, which got great reviews? In other words, does it sound as good? Sounds like a silly question, but I do not want to assume. Any comparisons of the Pro 10 to the EMU, in terms of sound?

Any personal experiences with these units is muchly appreciated.
Cheers,
Will

[Ashofapheonix]

Saffires are using some sort of derivitive of the Focusrite Green Series, all of them. For the most part focusrite makes current 3 different types of pres, Focusrite Green, ISA Series, and RED Series, the ISA and RED Series are the highend model, the Green Series is the lowerend model, The Voice master, Trackmaster, Octopre, Saffire all use green.

Take a magazine with a grain of salt. A big grain of salt. Most of them are never going to say anything bad about a product or down play it... because of fear of loosing advertising revenue. This is why forums are such a great source of info, because people don't usually have something at stake. (Some times they do on a board like this one which has a few merchants).

First don't worry so much on the preamps and convertors on an audio interface. Most of them excepting probably RME, Metric Halo, Apogee are designed for home studio use, and while there are quality differences, the jump between when compared to most pro gear is so small... Its rarely matters in the big picture. What should be one's focus in my opinion is driver compatibility... and does it have the features sets one wants. Also expandability is more useful too. Digital I/O like ADAT, AES,EBU gives S/PIDF oppurtunity to upgrade to much bigger horizon's (professional convertors), instead of replacing an interface when you decide on one.

That being said I have an EMU1212M, and think it works fine. I Can't comment on the 1616Ms preamps, but theres nothing wrong with the Convertors, since they are the same (and I've had a good variety of the budget interfaces presonus,M-audio,Mackie,tascam). The saffire stuff interested me, but I've heard of many people having driver issues, and of syncing issues with the larger units, so I avoided it. In my opinion if your going to get these units, I'd highly check out presonus... The Firestudio is comparable to the Saffire Pro, and Firepod is comparable Saffire 10. Presonus for the price (Firepods are 400$ on musiciansfriend, Firestudios are 700 everywhere).

[willsing]

Thanks,
That's practical advice. Lord knows I need it when I've got the itch for new gear! Besides, I emailed Focusrite over five days ago and no reply. No thanks. I also don't know if they work with AMD 64.

I am now interested in the ff400. I'm wondering if the converters are excellent and the jitter is low. I would also like to see the folks at Metric Halo do a Win driver. Any word on that?

[Ashofapheonix]

I wouldn't trust Metric Halo on windows even if they came out with a xp and vista driver tomorrow. Given their preference for the mac brand, i'd have to be willing to see it work on windows.

The RME Fireface 400 seems to have good convertors, but its nothing special. Where I've heard the fireface excells is really its D/A Conversion. The A/D conversions good but theirs better. The preamps are surprisingly mediocre. Though RME seems to habe a reputation even among professionals for one thing. really solid hardware, and good drivers. The convertors are described as fine, but not in the great category. Personally if your interested in the Saffire the Firestudio seems like a good route for you. A lot of people have this unit, so thats an indication, that there aren't to many worries. Presonus has among the best technical support in the business, I don't know about email but they answer phones. and are helpful. You need a texas instruments chipset firewire card or VIA for the PResonus stuff. as always I recommend Texas instruments, if you ever find that an interface isn't your piece of candy, you can move easily to another fw interface with a ti chip. Though I will say its harder on average for compatiblity on AMD Chips, due to a lack of unified chipset. The nforce stuff works well, though the 4 had problems. Intel Systems on Intel CHipsets are easier to integrate with hardware. Doesn't mean you can't get an AMD system to work though, as plenty of people use them. You may have to fight a bit more to get the interface to work at first. If you have an Nforce 4 the Firestudio is an avoid. Presonus recommends against using it wiht that chipset.

[drakewire]

I think you are just being a little ridiculous... :)

If you are a creative engineer, most people would never know the different between the RME, the Ensemble, or the Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 or the DIGI stuff, stop listening to the people at Guitar Center...
As most people think, focusrite saffire does not use Green Pres at all, the are a derivative... I own both the RME and the Saffire Pro 26 on my tracking units and a Neve 88D as my main console....
Of course, my Saffire Pro 26 are chained. I have three of them, and one caught on fire the other day (Im still confused how that happened), American Music and Sound replaced it right away....

Over all there is not much difference that justifies the price difference. You just need to know how to use your equipment over all... I have heard phenomenal mixes on its little brother the LE 2 channel... Which is over a thousand dollars cheaper than anything RME or Apogee.
The big thing is your monitors being able to hear the music not the speaker or the sound card but the music..... All of these units are more than capable at 24 bit 96.... They all translate extremely well...
I know a lot of great producers that even use UAD stuff... So, the debates on which one is better get a bit old, when for the most part in the low end market everything sounds the same, chinese...

Best Wishes,
Devon Drake

[Ashofapheonix]

Originally Posted by drakewire

I think you are just being a little ridiculous... :)

If you are a creative engineer, most people would never know the different between the RME, the Ensemble, or the Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 or the DIGI stuff, stop listening to the people at Guitar Center...
As most people think, focusrite saffire does not use Green Pres at all, the are a derivative... I own both the RME and the Saffire Pro 26 on my tracking units and a Neve 88D as my main console....
Of course, my Saffire Pro 26 are chained. I have three of them, and one caught on fire the other day (Im still confused how that happened), American Music and Sound replaced it right away....

Over all there is not much difference that justifies the price difference. You just need to know how to use your equipment over all... I have heard phenomenal mixes on its little brother the LE 2 channel... Which is over a thousand dollars cheaper than anything RME or Apogee.
The big thing is your monitors being able to hear the music not the speaker or the sound card but the music..... All of these units are more than capable at 24 bit 96.... They all translate extremely well...
I know a lot of great producers that even use UAD stuff... So, the debates on which one is better get a bit old, when for the most part in the low end market everything sounds the same, chinese...

Best Wishes,
Devon Drake

If I knew in person I'd buy you a drink.

[willsing]

Thanks for the input. Some good points made here from both of you guys. That firestudio does look pretty sweet with it's options and jitter suppression.

Devon, I think you had a good point on the monitors and the creativity. I'm not sure what you mean about being "ridiculous"(sounds a bit pompous).

I mean, yeah, from one point of view, we're splitting hairs with converter quality within a certain price range and the debate gets old, but the quest for perfection continues on finite funds. I must say that the difference I heard between my Delta 66 and my EMU 1820m was completely obvious, not just a matter of being creative and the upgrade was most certainly worth the money. So, is it possible to hear something more open, transparent with more depth than the 1820m for less than $1000? If so, I'd like to know. ;)

Any other opinions?

Thanks,
Will

[drakewire]

We use rosetta on our main console...
But at home I use the Focusrite AD/DA convertors and there fine... Then again I am not a person to ask, because I still dont care for SSL sound... I am more of a Neve Guy...
However, I am being realistic. For the average joe in today's market, you can make fantastic mixes at home ITB. The differences between the RME and The Saffire Pro are not that Obvious (and I am not being arrogant, pompous) just a learned soul....
The point here is no color when tracking primarily, obviously there are times when the color is desired. Saffire has just a clean of an interface both digitally and analogue as the RME and Ensemble does. Is it pristine? Well lets put it into perspective.
If you are using a good noise gate, absolutely. I have plugged a u67 into the focusrite, recorded it, and really cant hear a major difference between it and the Neve 88D board which I use religiously...Obviously, it is colder in some aspects, but thats what EQ is for. You can warm the signal in many ways.
I am just saying that I read a lot of what you guys say about this compared to that, and I think its ridiculous. As for me, I think a lot of the music these days is so heavily compressed that it sound like a huge warm goo...

Marketing Campaigns are rampant, just go to the AES convention... Point is in todays market its about getting a great sound for as little as possible, the monitors are what are really gonna make the music shine anyway since most specifications of these interfaces are the same...

We are not arguing apples and oranges here, we are asking whether or not you like green or red apples.

[willsing]

Thanks Devon, that makes sense. I see what you are saying. I Guess what it boils down to as Ashofapheonix mentioned is what options you like. Two questions about the Saffire, if I may:

1.) Does it change sample rates automatically when you switch from project to project when the projects have different sample rates? Or do you need to remember each time to change that before launching?

2.) You mentioned a noise gate being used with the Saffire.....Is the noise floor relatively higher than other units ( is it hissy?) or is it a matter of ambient sounds or recorded artifacts?

Thanks again for your input,
Will

[dviola]

Originally Posted by willsing

Thanks Devon, that makes sense. I see what you are saying. I Guess what it boils down to as Ashofapheonix mentioned is what options you like. Two questions about the Saffire, if I may:

1.) Does it change sample rates automatically when you switch from project to project when the projects have different sample rates? Or do you need to remember each time to change that before launching?

2.) You mentioned a noise gate being used with the Saffire.....Is the noise floor relatively higher than other units ( is it hissy?) or is it a matter of ambient sounds or recorded artifacts?

Thanks again for your input,
Will

1.The sample rate will only change one unit in either direction
for example if you are set to 96k and are opeing a 44.1 session, it will switch to 88.2, which sounds fine, however I normally just quit logic set the sample rate properly and reopen the project (for some reason logic can't handle the sample rate change in session, it "looses" the interface and only "finds" it again sometimes)....this really is not that big of a deal, once you're used to it, it takes about ten seconds to do.

2.To my ears, the saffire is very quiet


I think the point many are trying to make is that if you have an interface in this price range already, making small upgrades because you are on a budget (as I am) is a waste of your already precious money because the differences will be minimal at best...you are better off saving that money for something that will make a BIG difference...While it is fun and tempting to buy a new piece of gear there are many things I know I can do to improve my sound that only reflect on my skills as an engineer and will make a much bigger difference than any equiptment ever will, no matter what it is

Good luck to you and I would be happy to answer any more questions about the saffire if you would like...i have the pro 26 i/o

[willsing]

Originally Posted by dviola

I think the point many are trying to make is that if you have an interface in this price range already, making small upgrades because you are on a budget (as I am) is a waste of your already precious money because the differences will be minimal at best...you are better off saving that money for something that will make a BIG difference...While it is fun and tempting to buy a new piece of gear there are many things I know I can do to improve my sound that only reflect on my skills as an engineer and will make a much bigger difference than any equiptment ever will, no matter what it is

Good luck to you and I would be happy to answer any more questions about the saffire if you would like...i have the pro 26 i/o

Thanks for the kind explanation. Definitely makes sense what you all are saying. The jump to the 1820m back when, was definitely worth it. Now, it seems that these units are pretty neck-to-neck. And perhaps my skills will need some sharpening with the help of some good monitors and maybe some time in the studio with a seasoned vet. Good advice y'all.

[Ashofapheonix]

If you have the EMU1820M, I wouldn't even be looking at another interface unless you need more I/O. Not even the Firestudio.

700$... could be saved towards a nice professional grade convertor or used on a good set of convertors. Or room treatment, or something else. If your looking for an upgrade in sound, upgrading from one audio interface to another won't yeild a significant improvement over buying one or two outboard pieces.
Or taking care of other neglected areas. If you want serious upgrades

You may want to take a look into Apogees Mini me if your looking for a preamp/convertor upgrade. Use that VIA S/PIDF.


Another option the FMR RNP and an RME ADI-2. $ 1050.00

[skopje]

I found the preamps on the focusrite saffire brittle... I was really dissapointed. It was also unstable and i sold it..

I've read various reviews about the two units and they are too close to call..i''d wait andd upgrade later

[willsing]

Originally Posted by Ashofapheonix

Another option the FMR RNP and an RME ADI-2. $ 1050.00

I have an RNP...Love it! I am also going to screw around with my Kurzweil Rumour and try it as a converter after the RNP. It's one sweet little effects unit with very good conversion for the price.


My room is a bit small, but I followed Ethan Weiner's guide on making bass traps and have them all around the room with some non absorbing areas to keep it alive enough. I put up extra temp traps when monitoring and mixing. What do you think about the mini me's converters in comparison to say a lavry blue?

Do you think a pair of Adam A7s would help? I can't seem to get the bass to translate with my Event TR-5's
Will

[Ashofapheonix]

Find a place with an easy return policy and pick them up, at a time which you know you'll be working on mixes. Mix with them regularly two weeks. see how they translate. Then see if they helped. If not send them back. ADAM's make good monitors, and a lot of people find their mixes translate better on them. I'm a firm seat in this camp. Aim for a monitor with a large stereo-field. Its more important than how much lowend a monitor has, or how flat it is. As long as those things are relatively their, a large stereo-field makes it possible to hear where things are in the mix, and easier to place things in the mix.

[willsing]

Right on! Good info.......glad I posted this post. Easy to get into trouble spending whilst under the ether. I was feeling like that Warner bros cartoon character, the little chicken or whatever, who is excited about getting a "chicken hawk", jumping up and down, lickin' his chops with excitement as Foghorn leghorn says: " I say I say boy......if ya wanna get yoself one of them there chicken hawks, what ya gotta do is go down to that one henhouse down yonder there to the left..." (lol :D)

Have a good one,
Will

[Old Goat]

Originally Posted by dviola

I think the point many are trying to make is that if you have an interface in this price range already, making small upgrades because you are on a budget (as I am) is a waste of your already precious money because the differences will be minimal at best...you are better off saving that money for something that will make a BIG difference...While it is fun and tempting to buy a new piece of gear there are many things I know I can do to improve my sound that only reflect on my skills as an engineer and will make a much bigger difference than any equiptment ever will, no matter what it is

All other things being equal, will upgrading from 16/44.1 to 24/96 make enough difference to replace an interface?

[Ashofapheonix]

24bit depends on the quality of the convertor really. A good 16 bit is more desirable than a cheap 24bit.

44.1 Khz to anything, no if you can't get it to sound good at
44.1 Khz its not going to sound any better at 88.2 Khz or 96Khz.