If You Could Only Have 2 Mics to Use for Drum Overheads?

[jdjustice]

hello.
i am a total newbie when it comes to recording drums; i have never done it.
however, i wish to start tracking a drummer friend of mine in the upcoming weeks.

my main question(s):

if you had to only have 2 mics as overheads for the entire drum kit, which mics would you prefer and why (budget max $1500/mic)?

if you only had one mic for the Kick drum what would you use? ($1500 max)


and lastly, which do you consider the most important when mic'ing drums in terms of which drums should be individually mic'ed and when is just using overheads ever appropriate?


thanks a million in advance,
~j.d.

[Nu-tra]

Audio Technica ATM450's at $219 each for overheads
Audix i5 at $99 for snare top
CAD M179's at $199 each and great for toms.
EV 868 or Shure Beta 52 at $199

Now that is if you want to have enough to close mic everything.

IF you were to do just overhead and kick then I would probably either use a Shure sm91 inside and an RE20 or subkick on the outside.

For overheads a pair of Audio Technica 4060's or 4047's to pick up te entire kit.

Originally Posted by jdjustice

hello.
i am a total newbie when it comes to recording drums; i have never done it.
however, i wish to start tracking a drummer friend of mine in the upcoming weeks.

my main question(s):

if you had to only have 2 mics as overheads for the entire drum kit, which mics would you prefer and why (budget max $1500/mic)?

if you only had one mic for the Kick drum what would you use? ($1500 max)


and lastly, which do you consider the most important when mic'ing drums in terms of which drums should be individually mic'ed and when is just using overheads ever appropriate?


thanks a million in advance,
~j.d.

[jdjustice]

thanks nu-tra!
i appreciate the suggestions.

did you mean the SM81 (i have never heard of an SM91)?

and i forgot to mention, i have a pair of AKG C451Bs, where would these work best on a drumset (if at all)?



thanks again!
~j.d.

[Nu-tra]

I have a pair of those as well. They can be bright sounding depending on the cymbals but they will work for overheads just fine. So you already got overheads. SM91 is a shure pzm type mic that lays inside the kick. They have a newer version called the beta 91 but I don't like the beta as much so ebay will be your only way to get one if you are interested. I have a pair of ATM450's for overheads and I have been using my 451's for hi hat and ride. How many inputs or converter channels do you have?

Originally Posted by jdjustice

thanks nu-tra!
i appreciate the suggestions.

did you mean the SM81 (i have never heard of an SM91)?

and i forgot to mention, i have a pair of AKG C451Bs, where would these work best on a drumset (if at all)?



thanks again!
~j.d.

[jdjustice]

i have 8 channels of i/o and conversion (Digidesign 003 with Rosetta 800), and i have 4 channels of Great River NV and 4 channels of API (3124+).

which preamp would you use on which source? the API for all of it or the GR on some drums and the API on others?

i know i should just experiment but i would love a good starting point.



thanks again!
~j.d.

[Nu-tra]

Wow you got good stuff. Hey so do you use the rosetta to add 8 more inputs to the 003 to make it 16 inputs? I dunno it's a tough call I like API for drums. Try the API for kick snare and overheads if you decide to go with minimal micing. great river for the toms. and if you have a channel left over snare bottom or hi hat or outside kick mic. And if you do have an extra 8 digi preamps then use them for the not important stuff like snare bottom and hihat or room mics

[jdjustice]

i never have had to use more than 8 channels simultaneously; most of my recording is acoustic stuff and i have never recorded drums like i said so this is new to me.
i did get the API with the express purpose of eventually recording drums.

i love the GR on everything else, though; vocals, bass, acoustic guitar, etc..
so i will have to see if the API sounds better to me on drums.


~j.d.

[Nu-tra]

Welcome to the world of multitracking drums e!

So I just looked at the 003 and it has adat input and the rosetta has adat as well so you ahve a total of 16 inputs no? Like I said use the good pres for the important stuff and use the digi pres for the not so important and scratch tracks

Good luck

[dkelley]

just for the record, maybe I'm small time or something, but in all of my sessions at large studios down to my lowly home studio I've never used more than 2 overhead mics for drums. I've used room mics as well as distant mics aimed at specific drums along with close micing plus a pair of overheads (in the most elaborate miking schemes) but never more than 2 overheads.

The way you asked the original question sort of makes it sound like it's a limiting factor to only have two overhead mics. But I'm probably totally misreading the post, sorry in advance if I am. Just woke up... :-)

I like ksm32s personally for overheads. also have used coles 4038s with some success, cad m179s, U87s, tlm103s, gefell 9x0s (don't recall which one, don't think it was the cardoid 930 model though, that's not my favorite mic out of that gefell series (I prefer tlm103s to those), what I do like about those gefells is the 940, 950 etc with their different dedicated polar patterns). apex 205s also work pretty well, i've also used earthworks with great success. these days my favs are the shure ksm32s though. that's irrelevant of price.

Cheers,
Don

[dkelley]

and +1 for atm450s by the way, do the job great.

personally not a fan of sm81 sound, but they are good solid mics and can be used well for that too I'm sure. I just never got into them much so I speak only from what I personally have used.

Cheers,
Don

[Bob Olhsson]

KM-84s or Royer ribbons

You want a mike that will accept midrange eq. without turning the cymbals into tin.

[Mr. Man]

Gefell M300s
Go ahead, read the reviews about the KM-84s or KM-184s, they all say the same thing, the Gefells sound better.
If you don't believe me, just try them. Gefell is a really underrated company. In some ways I think it's better than Neumann.

[Chrisc_o]

For what it's worth, I picked up a pair of EV Cardinal mics for cheap on e-bay. I Just finished tracking 4 songs with these on OH duties, and I am very impressed.

I set them up in a pseudo-recorderman set-up: equidistant from point of impact on the snare but not pointing at the snare, more straight down at the floor. I ignored the distance to the kick drum and placed them more in front of the drummer, and about 2 and a half stick lengths up.

Their off-axis sound was a little wonky when I did my tests on a pure recorderman configuration; cymbals had a bit of a honky character, and stereo imaging was not good. So I pushed them a bit higher, forward and out a little and pointed them away from the snare. The double swivel mounts are a blast for fine tuning the specific positions and distances.

Lots of tom and room sound in the mix. The drummer didn't even realize that the snare and tom close mics were off when he came into the control room to hear the tracks!

[stevep]

Overheads, 414s

Kick EV PL20

421s for toms

And a bunch of 57s



Im getting a pair ov Earthworks QTC 40s so those might be my new favorite :))

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by jdjustice

i am a total newbie when it comes to recording drums; i have never done it.
however, i wish to start tracking a drummer friend of mine in the upcoming weeks.

If you've never tracked drums before, not knowing which mics to use is the least of your problems. The first thing you should do is find a capable engineer and give him a hundred bucks to help you with your session, or at least with the setup and first couple of hours for adjustments. Much better use of your money.

To answer your question directly, our two steady overhead pairs are Earthworks QTC30's (very clean omnis) and Neumann KM184's (cardioids with some color). You can get these brand new for around $1500 for each pair. If I had to use only one for all sessions and styles, I would probably go with the Earthworks. In skilled hands, clean is more versatile, and your goal should be to become skilled.

For a three-mic setup on the drums (kick and two overheads), often the best approach will be to abandon the stereo concept entirely. Instead, find positions for the two mics that will present a nice tone and balance the kit -- and they don't have to be the same two mics at all. You might, for example, try an omni eight feet overhead from behind, and then a cardioid a couple of feet above the snare.

Play with it. In the right hands, any three decent mics can get a cool drum sound. If you're smart, you'll spend a little budget on renting "the right hands."

JSL

[RUSCO]

I;ve yet to get a pair of Earthworks QTC 40 . I have heard great reports.
I'm using an AT4047 and a PZM which give me super results.

[stevep]

Give me a great drummer and drums, a good sounding room and a bunch of 57s and i would be happy

[drycounty]

Originally Posted by RUSCO

I;ve yet to get a pair of Earthworks QTC 40 . I have heard great reports.
I'm using an AT4047 and a PZM which give me super results.

A good "poor mans" Earthworks are the Avenson Audio "stapes" mics (I think the model is the ST-2). I have an earlier incarnation of these omnis and it's seriously impressive on overheads. If they were ever stolen, I'd be crushed but I'd save and likely buy the exact same thing.

[smsimpson83]

OVH Sennheiser MKH40's
Kick Sennheiser e602

My personal faves.

[ulysses]

If you've never miked a drum kit before, rather than being limited to one or two nice mikes somebody else likes and thinking that's the best there is, I would suggest spending some time experimenting with all of the cheap mikes you can, so you can compare how different KINDS of microphones sound on different parts of the drum kit. It's important to remember that there is no one correct way to do this stuff - I record drums very differently than many other people do, but that's not to say that they or I can't get fantastic results (of course my results will be better - to me, anyway).

Still, if I had $1500 to spend on microphones with which to mike a drum kit, I would probably buy a single Altec M11 and a couple of SM57s. Or maybe I would buy an Altec M20, a couple of SM57s, and either an RE20 or a Royer 121. But I'm really happy getting most of my drum sound from a single Altec 21D omni capsule (as found in the M11 and the M20); you just have to find the right place to put it for the particular drummer, drums, room, and song in question.
The SM57 is occasionally the best microphone on a source, but it is never the worst. It is probably the most versatile microphone ever made. It's well suited and popular on snares and for close-miking toms, and I've gotten fantastic results with it on kick drum and even in an XY pair as overheads. One time I recorded the band 16 Horsepower with nothing but a single SM57 for the whole drum kit, and it sounded great.
Aside from those, a dedicated kick drum mike might be useful to add exaggerated low end. The sound of a drum kit on most recordings is very different than the sound of a drum kit in the room with you, and the most common divergence from reality is that the kick drum is unnaturally loud. If that's what you want to do, you'll need to stick something up to or into the kick drum. The AKG D112 has been the "standard" for years, and it works well but it's a lot like having an equalizer with no knobs on it - you're pretty much stuck with the low-end boost, low-mid cut, and midrange peak they've decided works on most kick drums. And it does, but it doesn't work as well as a good mike placed carefully and equalized on an individual basis. The Beyer M88 is popular, as is the AKG D12. But my preference is for the EV RE20 or PL20 (they are identical microphones other than the name and the paint).
But then again, my favorite drum miking approach isn't appropriate for every piece of music or every drum kit that comes my way, so it's good to have other options. I also really like ribbon mikes as drum overheads, in place of the Altec. I've had great results with lots of different ribbon mikes, old and new, but the Royer 121 is readily available, rugged, has fairly high output, and sound really good. Also, its pseudo-figure-8 pattern can be very useful for sculpting a beautiful drum sound and can be very educational for learning about mike pickup patterns in general.
I haven't made any suggestions here that will give you a profoundly stereo drum sound. Sometimes that's important, but good tone is more important. I have had good results with an XY pair as overheads, in particular using the AKG C33 stereo mike. We've also got a Rode stereo mike that sounds pretty decent for the money. Of course, crossing a pair of single microphones can work just as well, but it takes longer to get them placed just right. You should try your 451s as overheads, both single and XY. I think it's easier to get the placement perfect on a single mono microphone, but with some careful listening and re-positioning you can do it with a crossed pair also. I would suggest buying a "stereo bar" (which screws onto the end of a standard mike stand and holds two or more microphone clips) to make the job much easier than trying to get two separate boom stands place well. 90% of getting a good drum sound is hardware logistics - both the drum hardware, and the mike stands. Figure that out and the rest comes pretty easily. If your drummer's hardware rattles, or if you can't get the microphone into the place it needs to be, then a great drum kit and a great mike aren't going to be as useful as they should be.

One other tip: One of my two favorite "overhead" mike position is to place the microphone so that the drummer's head is between the hi hat and the microphone. This will put it somewhere over the drummer's right shoulder, if s/he's right-handed. You have to be careful so it's not going to get hit when a stick comes up for a big swing, so talk to the drummer, watch them, and place the mike somewhere safe. This will give you a great floor tom sound with good attack, and the drummer's head will help cut down on the hi hat, which most drummers hit too hard. As far as I can tell, this is the only reason why drummers even have heads.

[Bob Olhsson]

FWIW a 184 is not an 84 by a long shot!

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by stevep

Im getting a pair ov Earthworks QTC 40s so those might be my new favorite :))

Oh... You're gonna likey.

bcgood

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by ulysses

As far as I can tell, this is the only reason why drummers even have heads.

just when i thought i was going to go a whole day without laughing.

[uncle duncan]

Since you already have a pair of bright condensors, you might consider a pair of darker ones, like the Oktavamod.com MK-12 or the Charter Oaks M900. The Charter Oaks comes with 3 capsules - cardioid, hyper-cardioid, and omni, which would give you more options for recording acoustic stuff, since a lot of people like to track acoustic guitars with an omni mic. Plus, you could try omni on your drums, depending on how your room sounds.
A really nice dynamic is the Heil PR20. It's really beefy - not at all like a 57. It would be good for kick if you needed more thump, or a more natural sound. Most people are using brighter mics for kick in pop music, like the Beta 52, but put a hyped sounding kick into an acoustic mix, and it can sound really odd. The PR20 is also good on bright singers and bright instruments like banjo, mando, and violin. The PR30 and PR40 are more expensive, but exhibit less bass response. Weird, huh?
A pair of Beyer M160's would also be nice. They're ribbons, but they're cardioid, not figure 8, so they could be easier to work with. (Most ribbons are a fixed figure 8 pattern.) But then you'd need a AEA TRP preamp, at least for acoustic instruments. (The AEA gives you 84 db of gain. Most preamps are in the 60 db range, which can be not quite enough on quiet sources.) I'm thinking the Beyer and the Heil would sound similar, so, if you could get both, you could always send back the ones you didn't want. I Believe the Beyer is in the $600 range, and the Heil is under $200.
I think trying to record drums with only 3 mics (2 OH's and kick) is going to be all about the drummer, since the balance of the kit is going to be coming from the player more than the mics. Adding a mic on the snare, and a mic out in front of the kit (5 feet out, 5 feet high) would really help when it comes time to mix. There's a sweet spot for the FOK mic. If you put on isolation headphones and have the player play a beat, you can find the spot where the snare really comes to life. You can also mess around with placement of the snare mic. Putting it over the head inside the rim gives you more thump, outside the rim gives you more of the shell and less thump. Adding a mic under the snare gives you the option of brightening the snare in the mix without using a lot of EQ. Adding a hi-hat mic can also help during the mix. You may not even need it, but if you do need it and it's not there, you're kinda screwed.

[joeshambro]

i'm in love with my earthworks sr77 pair for drum overheads. they're so clean, and as long as you pair them with a really good, fast preamp you've got the most accurate drum sound you'll ever hear.

medeski martin & wood are using them on tour for drum overheads, and they sound phenomenal.

[firby]

I love the grit of Beyer m160s for overheads. You will either love them or hate them.

[jdjustice]

Originally Posted by jslevin

If you've never tracked drums before, not knowing which mics to use is the least of your problems. The first thing you should do is find a capable engineer and give him a hundred bucks to help you with your session, or at least with the setup and first couple of hours for adjustments. Much better use of your money.

To answer your question directly, our two steady overhead pairs are Earthworks QTC30's (very clean omnis) and Neumann KM184's (cardioids with some color). You can get these brand new for around $1500 for each pair. If I had to use only one for all sessions and styles, I would probably go with the Earthworks. In skilled hands, clean is more versatile, and your goal should be to become skilled.

For a three-mic setup on the drums (kick and two overheads), often the best approach will be to abandon the stereo concept entirely. Instead, find positions for the two mics that will present a nice tone and balance the kit -- and they don't have to be the same two mics at all. You might, for example, try an omni eight feet overhead from behind, and then a cardioid a couple of feet above the snare.

Play with it. In the right hands, any three decent mics can get a cool drum sound. If you're smart, you'll spend a little budget on renting "the right hands."

JSL

Originally Posted by ulysses

If you've never miked a drum kit before, rather than being limited to one or two nice mikes somebody else likes and thinking that's the best there is, I would suggest spending some time experimenting with all of the cheap mikes you can, so you can compare how different KINDS of microphones sound on different parts of the drum kit. It's important to remember that there is no one correct way to do this stuff - I record drums very differently than many other people do, but that's not to say that they or I can't get fantastic results (of course my results will be better - to me, anyway).

Still, if I had $1500 to spend on microphones with which to mike a drum kit, I would probably buy a single Altec M11 and a couple of SM57s. Or maybe I would buy an Altec M20, a couple of SM57s, and either an RE20 or a Royer 121. But I'm really happy getting most of my drum sound from a single Altec 21D omni capsule (as found in the M11 and the M20); you just have to find the right place to put it for the particular drummer, drums, room, and song in question.
The SM57 is occasionally the best microphone on a source, but it is never the worst. It is probably the most versatile microphone ever made. It's well suited and popular on snares and for close-miking toms, and I've gotten fantastic results with it on kick drum and even in an XY pair as overheads. One time I recorded the band 16 Horsepower with nothing but a single SM57 for the whole drum kit, and it sounded great.
Aside from those, a dedicated kick drum mike might be useful to add exaggerated low end. The sound of a drum kit on most recordings is very different than the sound of a drum kit in the room with you, and the most common divergence from reality is that the kick drum is unnaturally loud. If that's what you want to do, you'll need to stick something up to or into the kick drum. The AKG D112 has been the "standard" for years, and it works well but it's a lot like having an equalizer with no knobs on it - you're pretty much stuck with the low-end boost, low-mid cut, and midrange peak they've decided works on most kick drums. And it does, but it doesn't work as well as a good mike placed carefully and equalized on an individual basis. The Beyer M88 is popular, as is the AKG D12. But my preference is for the EV RE20 or PL20 (they are identical microphones other than the name and the paint).
But then again, my favorite drum miking approach isn't appropriate for every piece of music or every drum kit that comes my way, so it's good to have other options. I also really like ribbon mikes as drum overheads, in place of the Altec. I've had great results with lots of different ribbon mikes, old and new, but the Royer 121 is readily available, rugged, has fairly high output, and sound really good. Also, its pseudo-figure-8 pattern can be very useful for sculpting a beautiful drum sound and can be very educational for learning about mike pickup patterns in general.
I haven't made any suggestions here that will give you a profoundly stereo drum sound. Sometimes that's important, but good tone is more important. I have had good results with an XY pair as overheads, in particular using the AKG C33 stereo mike. We've also got a Rode stereo mike