Singer Songwriter demo setup help

[t0lkien]

I know many have asked similar questions, but after a day or more of reading these (excellent) forums, I still have some questions.

I need a very portable solution that will allow me to record demos of song ideas using just my acoustic guitar and voice at first. My intention is to also mess around with loops, and fill out the songs that work with drums etc. (I've used Reason a very bit), as well as electric guitar via my PodXT Live. I've been looking at the Mbox 2 Mini for this purpose, and possibly a Shure beta 57. My reasons are these:

1. It must all be very portable.
2. Because it will travel, it must also be as durable as possible.
3. It must be USB powered (unnecessary power chords overseas get painful fast).
4. I don't want to spend more than $1000 if I can help it, hopefully less.

My questions are these:

1. Is ProTools worth dealing with the limitations of the Mini (the pres worry me after reading posts here - I have a very fussy ear; plus the USB 1.1 bandwidth/latency limitation seems totally unnecessary in today's world of USB 2.0 and Firewire). ProTools is the industry standard and that means I can bring my sessions into bigger studios if I want to. That is attractive to me, but not essential.

2. If I don't go with ProTools, what is a quality alternative - I'm seeking advice here on what is easy to get around and yet deep enough not to disappoint down the track. I know it's subjective, but anecdotal information is very useful at this point.

3. Will a Shure beta 57 be adequate for acoustic guitar and vocals? If not, could anyone suggest an alternative that will travel well (and so size matters as well)?

Many thanks for any replies.

P.S. I'm also look at a set of Sony Pro MDR-7506 headphones for recording/mixing. Any opinions on these would also be very welcome.

[t0lkien]

Just FYI, I've decided to go with the E-MU 1616m, and run REAPER (which just seems a fantastic alternative to many of the bloated standards - way to go Justin). The E-MU breaks my USB/Firewire powered requirement, but after reading up on it I couldn't go past it. The PCMCIA card with onboard DSP also makes this solution just so attractive. Plus it's black(ish) thumbsup

If anyone else is facing the same dilemma, I will be happy to go deeper into why I think the E-MU is the best solution in its price range. It took a lot of reading (a lot) to come to that conclusion. It can seem a bewildering task.

As for REAPER, I think it's a no-brainer if you are not constrained by legacy workflows and the need to conform to what the majority of the rest of the industry is doing. And it's getting better all the time.

Still undecided on the mic and cans.

[halcyo]

I'm not really the guy to make a good recomendation, but I think you will probably want to check out a 'lower end' large diaphragm condensor mic for vox, as well as the 57.


halcyo

[emdub123]

I try to only comment when I have actual first-hand experience with the situation at hand. Like you, I am primarily a singer-songwriter who records mostly vocals and acoustic guitar.

I started out with a Boss BR864 about three years ago and enjoyed it's ease of use and acceptable sound quality. About three months ago, I upgraded to the E-MU 1616M and have enjoyed the learning process. There are quite a few "moving parts" in computer-based recording and it's been a challenge, but the quality of my recordings has improved and I have a lot more options than I had before.

With very little effort, you will be able to record, mix and master demos that sound GREAT using the 1616M. No question about it, if you're not intending to sell what you record, you'll be very pleased. Friends and family members will be totally impressed. If you're trying to make recordings that go beyond "demo quality", I think you'll need to look at professional-grade preamps and mics. With this setup, you're already VERY CLOSE to professional quality, so I would imagine that just buying more budget gear isn't going to get you to that next level, sound wise.

I haven't made these investments yet, so I can't tell you what works, but I'm looking at everything from the FMR Audio RNP to the Universal Audio LA610 ($475 to $1500). I've got an MXL V69ME and Rode NT3 already and am looking at an additional LDC, probably an AT4050.

What alot of these folks here don't talk much about is that the difference between "home recording" and "studio recording" gear is a game of inches, for the most part. I've used $50 mics and $500 mics and, while the difference is noticeable, it's not always DRAMATIC. These small differences do have a cumulative effect that makes the difference more pronounced, but making small improvements in how you use compression, eq and reverb are very noticeable too. Since I first started, I've made recordings that sucked and I've made recordings that really did sound -almost- radio ready. I guess I'm saying that when you first start out you'll get just as much bang-for-your-buck by gaining proficiency at using the software and plug-ins as you will from the extra gear you buy. That's why I've been reluctant to buy a preamp and new mic, is that I'm still squeezing out better and better recordings with what I've already got. I'm pretty sure that after learning the software and getting a little better pres/mics, I'll be able to make what I consider to be "professional" recordings. I know that this forum is frequented by people who are employed by recording studios and I understand their perspective, but I stand by the statement that YOU CAN make professional recordings at home.

[emdub123]

Now that I'm off my soapbox, I'll offer a thought on mic and cans, as you requested

I like the "vintage" tone of my MXL V69ME but might recommend something different if it's the only mic you'll use. If your budget is under $300, both Audio-Technica and Rode make mics that sound good. I've personally used the Rode NT-1A and the AT4033 or AT4040 (wasn't mine, can't remember) but they both sounded noticeably better than my first mic, an MXL990. For recording acoustic guitar, all of my condensers sound better than my SM57. If you get a mid-level LDC, it will most likely be able to record acoustic guitars very well, so you may be able to "save" a couple bucks by just getting a good LDC instead of two lesser mics.

Cans, I use Sony MDR7506 and they sound great.

[t0lkien]

Thanks for the feedback! I'm still undecided on the mic. There is no way to know until I actually use one, and then it is too late of course. I'll just have to make a best guess and bite the bullet.

[hgen]

4033 for vocals and acoustic is a great choice. For many big studios the 4033 for acoustic is their first choice mic. The NT1 doesn't come near it.

[t0lkien]

Checked out the 4033 and it looks like the ticket. As usual I'm blowing my budget, but no point having reasonably nice pre's without a reasonably nice mic. Cheers!

[hgen]

Even if you had all the money in the world, the 4033 is still a must have mic for alot of studio's. What the sm57 is to dynamics the 4033 is to condensor mics, will record most things really really well.

[dickiefunk]

Hi. I put up a poll a while back which had mikes like the Rode K2, SE Electronics Z5600a, Blue Baby Bottle, CAD M177 / 179 and Audio Technica 4050 / 4040 / 4033.

Both the Audio Technica 4050 and 4040 were the winners followed by the Rode K2. The 4033 was quite a way behind. I haven't used these mikes yet but going from other peoples recommendations I'd go with either the Audio Technica 4050 or 4040 over the 4033.

[JPM]

another vote for a 4050. i was pleasantly surprised when i tried one for the first time recently. to my ears it's much nicer than a 4033. richer, more neutral, and not harsh in the highs. 4047 is also a really cool mic for the price. never tried a 4040.

go to audio technica's website and they have audio samples comparing the 40 series with male and female vocals and acoustic guitar.

[Spectacle]

Originally Posted by emdub123

I like the "vintage" tone of my MXL V69ME but might recommend something different if it's the only mic you'll use. If your budget is under $300, both Audio-Technica and Rode make mics that sound good. I've personally used the Rode NT-1A and the AT4033 or AT4040 (wasn't mine, can't remember) but they both sounded noticeably better than my first mic, an MXL990. For recording acoustic guitar, all of my condensers sound better than my SM57. If you get a mid-level LDC, it will most likely be able to record acoustic guitars very well, so you may be able to "save" a couple bucks by just getting a good LDC instead of two lesser mics.

I second all of this above.

I started with the MXL990, which was nice for learning the ropes. Then I eventually upgraded to the Rode NT1-A (after trying a number of the other mics suggested here) and found it to be a fantastic choice for acoustic (high-end Taylor, strummed, fingerpicked, and lead) as well as my vocals (male, big range, melodic rock). Really a great, versatile mic, and totally road-worthy.

Other things to consider for total portability (of which I am also a big fan), all of them bus-powered:
Glyph PortaGig // FireWire 400. USB 2.0. Bus-powered. (7200rpm external drive that is really pocket-sized)
Alesis :: iO|14 or MOTU.com - UltraLite Overview

And if you play electric (of for that matter, want their REMARKABLE suite of "GearBox" plugins that are great for everything), any of the Line 6 TonePort models (all bus-powered, and you can upgrade them all in different flavors to the full Plug-In suite): UX1, UX2, KB37 -- Line 6 - TonePort

If you were at least somewhat a synth guy as well, I'd suggest Logic Express as your DAW, because of the remarkable MIDI capability in addition to its first-rate pro audio specs. But if you have Reason, and it can be ReWired through Reaper, then you'll be fine on that front anyway (though the score editor might be sorely missed).

It's good to see that you're researching everything so closely. Good luck with whatever you choose!

[bluegrasser]

Originally Posted by t0lkien

Just FYI, I've decided to go with the E-MU 1616m, and run REAPER (which just seems a fantastic alternative to many of the bloated standards - way to go Justin). The E-MU breaks my USB/Firewire powered requirement, but after reading up on it I couldn't go past it. The PCMCIA card with onboard DSP also makes this solution just so attractive. Plus it's black(ish) thumbsup

If anyone else is facing the same dilemma, I will be happy to go deeper into why I think the E-MU is the best solution in its price range. It took a lot of reading (a lot) to come to that conclusion. It can seem a bewildering task.

As for REAPER, I think it's a no-brainer if you are not constrained by legacy workflows and the need to conform to what the majority of the rest of the industry is doing. And it's getting better all the time.

Still undecided on the mic and cans.

If you already bought the E-MU unit so be it. I just want to say that for putting together quick, very decent sounding demos, I had a FANTASTIC TIME with the BOSS BR-1600. I've since upgraded to VS-2400. I like the outboard SIAB thing. People say they're limited but that's mostly b.s. since you can always use outboard gear with them.

[t0lkien]

Oh no, now you've done it! That Motu Ultralite looks awesome too. Sheesh Thanks for the Portagig link too - just what I needed.

[t0lkien]

This is proving harder than I thought. I'm now caught between the EM-U 1616m and the MBox 2 Mini. I know the Mini is not as good, but it's smaller, durably constructed, is USB powered, and comes with Reason (Adapted). I read a good article about how singer songwriters often get trapped in the home recording loop, and stop making music because of it. I so relate to that, and so think maybe the Mini is the way to go, as even though it's inferior technically, it will still be enough for me to do what I need.

It's just such a shame that noone seems to make exactly what I need. If the Mini had good converters and preamps, it would be a no brainer.

[jimijay]

singer/songwriter Ari Hest did some decently nice demos using an M-Audio Fast Track, SM 57 and his Mac running Garageband. The EP is on iTunes Music Store to check out.

links:
Electronic Musician's Pro/File column on the recording of Ari Hest's EP, The Green Room Sessions.
Apple - Pro - Profiles - Ari Hest

[I play in a ban]

MBox 2
SM57
BFD
Trilogy

Have fun

[t0lkien]

Those singer-songwriter links were great, thanks! It proves to me that it can be done with just good songs, effort, and a lot of work (a good ear helps too).

[t0lkien]

UPDATE: after more time deliberating (and especially after reading those Ari Hest links) , I've settled on the M-Audio Fast Track Pro, and a set of Audio Technica M50's, and probably a Shure beta 57a mic. The lot will cost me less than USD$500, which is pretty reasonable, and will give me a durable and versatile setup to run off my PC laptop (I hope).

I really like the look of the E-MU 1616m, but it is a bit physically bigger than I wanted, has more than I will ever likely use and - the clincher - it requires mains power. Also there are known issues with the PCMCIA card, though newer versions may have solved that.

Thanks to all for your input, both here an in other areas of the forum.

[bilco]

Originally Posted by t0lkien

UPDATE: after more time deliberating (and especially after reading those Ari Hest links) , I've settled on the M-Audio Fast Track Pro, and a set of Audio Technica M50's, and probably a Shure beta 57a mic. The lot will cost me less than USD$500, which is pretty reasonable, and will give me a durable and versatile setup to run off my PC laptop (I hope).

I really like the look of the E-MU 1616m, but it is a bit physically bigger than I wanted, has more than I will ever likely use and - the clincher - it requires mains power. Also there are known issues with the PCMCIA card, though newer versions may have solved that.

Thanks to all for your input, both here an in other areas of the forum.

I think the mics you are getting will be fine - your operative word that started the whole thread was....... "demo."

I have been part way up the gear lust food chain and am in the process of downsizing to just an Mbox1, ibook and 2 mics. I need portability and since I am also a songwriter first and foremost, I need simplicity. They are just demos....... I am going to record a CD project, but for that I am going to use a real engineer who has pro gear and pro ears...... I don't have either.

bilco

[bilco]

Originally Posted by jimijay

singer/songwriter Ari Hest did some decently nice demos using an M-Audio Fast Track, SM 57 and his Mac running Garageband. The EP is on iTunes Music Store to check out.

links:
Electronic Musician's Pro/File column on the recording of Ari Hest's EP, The Green Room Sessions.
Apple - Pro - Profiles - Ari Hest

Wow......... great stuff....

Here's the deal; this guy can REALLY sing, write and play. There is an "All SM57" song done by Kelly McGuire over at Studio Forums:

The All 57 Song by Kelly McGuire

Same thing, soulful voice, great song, "Head Over Heels" and strong playing.....

It is amazing what an SM57 and real talent can do.......

bilco

[t0lkien]

That's nice too! That Roland is bit more than just a simple Audio Interface on a laptop ($3.5K worth), but still, it's very cool what can be done with modern tech now. My first project was a full album done in a 16 track studio in Australia during the early 90's, and it cost $10K and sounded like crap. Now you can get much better quality for less than 1K and a bit of work.

[t0lkien]

For the final update, here is what I went with (though I got everything off eBay):

E-MU 1616m
(Because it has the best pre-amps and DACs for the price, enough bandwidth via the cardbus to minimize latency, and a fairly nice bunch of onboard DSPs. Plus I can use just the card without the microdock to mix and mess around with the DSPs)

ATH-M50 Headphones
(Because they have a nice flat response and fold up to save space, which is important for me because I travel)

Studio Projects B1 microphone
(Because it gets rave reviews for the price, and is recommended as a good alrounder for vocals and acoustic guitar. I will probably pick up an SM-57 as well just for a different sound)

It all installed and worked on my Vaio laptop, though I immediately discovered why people build recording rooms. My laptop has a loud fan and the B1 picks up everything (of course). I currently have it all set up so the laptop is under a thick pillow on the couch, and the mic is on a desk behind the couch with a curtain inbetween. I work the software from the desk via a wireless mouse. Drop ins are going to be nigh impossible, but it works

E-MU's patch link software is, just as everyone said, a steep learning curve. I still haven't figured it out. What no-one told me is that it's not optional. If you can't get it to work, you won't get sound at all. Luckily they have presets that will work "out of the box". If anyone else is thinking of using this interface, I would suggest not going above 48K, at least initially. There are features that don't work at the higher sampling rates, and lots of other little gremlins that crop up. Plus it has the power to kill other applications completely, such as Ableton.

Apart from that, it's a great sounding setup. Thanks to all for the help. It's already inspired me to start writing again (I got out of bed and recording a quick take of a new song idea at 2am last night).

[Ironklad Audio]

without reading through the entire ****ing thread...

if you're looking for something simple and cheap just to get down some ideas, and REALLY want portability with your mics, check out the naiant SDC's...they're available in omni or cardioid, sound fairly decent, and are absolutely TINY

[mrufino1]

The naint mics are amazing. I have the msh1 and msh2 mics (pair of each). Best value out there I think. And Jon is a great person to deal with. The only bad thing is he is just one guy and it is hard to keep up with demand! I bought 4 of his inline pads too, we'll see how they work this week, but if they are anything like his mics, there will be no problems at all.

[skygod]

Originally Posted by bluegrasser

If you already bought the E-MU unit so be it. I just want to say that for putting together quick, very decent sounding demos, I had a FANTASTIC TIME with the BOSS BR-1600. I've since upgraded to VS-2400. I like the outboard SIAB thing. People say they're limited but that's mostly b.s. since you can always use outboard gear with them.

Concur bluegrasser. The 2480DVD fully loaded with four VS8F3s is fantastic. I don't care what anybody else says. I've done very good recordings on these A-Z for fun and you couldn't tell the diff between those albums and my expensive outboard. Its in the operator headspace skill level bro, and has nothiong to do with the gear. Yeah there are hardware restrictions, but so do you have software restrictions going laptop at 24+ track count too, so whatthefvvk over? Not a very slutty thing to say, but its reality 101. You learn to deal with it and make the best with the availale tools, just like back in the 'old school' recording days. Best recordings were done this way. Now with the RBUS-ADAT transfer and Presonus RBUS VFIRE firewire transfer opened a world of 'porting.' Having said that,

I've been shopping around for useful XMAS presents for two savant young adults -- two very accomplished guitar and piano players by any international conservatory standards. I did not want to pay for a fully loaded 2480DVD/w/VS8F3s, although that would be great but IMO not for pro-audio novices (actually ignorants) who have no aspiration of sound on sound anything other than composition and performance, and I came across these two gems:

The BOSS BR-160CD, and

The Roland MV-880 (Roland MV-8800 | Sweetwater.com).

Holy crappola, are these two are a match made in heaven or what? Boy oh boy has technology taken a quantum leap, even at 44.1/48 domain exclusive! I'm sold

I really like this guy's review and his innocence and unjaded approach to the craft of making music. It was a breath of fresh air reading this one: Boss BR-1600CD: Harmony Central User Reviews

'I play rock, country, blues, reggae, heavy rock, and some metal. I have been hacking at it both as an amateur and semi pro for 40+ years. I pretty much listed my gear in the sound section. I would definitely purchase it again if (knock on wood) anything were to happen to it. So far I'm having a ball with this digital recorder, even though it does take some fun work. I don't know quite yet what I really hate about this unit, other than the more difficult internal drum and bass pattern programing procedures. But I would imagine in due time with experience I'll master it. I really don't know which feature is my favorite, I'm having a ball with all the toys in this unit. I shopped around and investigated which digital recorder was for me, I even looked into some computer recording routes, but I wanted an all around, easy to transport, do-all unit that would not be too complex and finicky. I like the fact that with this unit you can really just push a few knobs and buttons to acomplish most tasks. I have the Akai DSP16 digital recorder and this Boss Br1600cd kicks its ass. I wish they would come up with a simpler way to program the bass and drum sequencer. (automatic, after all we live in a high tech digital world whether we like it or not, I like it!)Yes this unit inspires me. I highly recommend this Boss Br1600cd for all of you home and traveling musicians.'

Other comments at: The Gear Page - Rules And Agreement

I know two kiddos that are gonna take their music to the next level with these tools this XMAS lol

Merry XMAS all -


~skygod~

[manning1]

t0lkien.
you mentioned drums.
a nice solution is.and there are a couple of reaper users doing this.
band in a box for quickly getting bed tracks..
(*check out the real drums n new real instruments (includeing acoustic guitar demo n sax etc n pedal steel) at pgmusic.com.)
then bring the biab tracks into reaper and add final lead up front tracks like vocs etc.
the advantage of this approach is you dont need a uber powerfull pc.
useing biab for bed tracks..then into reaper.

*these are drums and instruments played by real studio musicians.

ps.think of biab as a back up band to jam with.
v usefull tool for getting new song ideas.