Fathead vs. 121 vs. 84 Shootout CD

[drBill]

Has anyone listened to the Cascade produced CD shooting out the Fathead vs. 121 vs. 84?

(Upper L hand corner for ordering the free CD)
http://www.cascademicrophones.com/ca...AT%20HEAD.html

Interesting stuff. In some cases I liked the Fathead over either the 121 or 84. In other cases I liked the 121. The fathead seems to have a little more "hair" on it than the 121. The 121 seemed to be a little more "refined" sounding with more highs and smoother - almost more LDC-like. The Fathead seemed to sit about halfway between the 84 and the 121. I want to do some more listening with the files imported into PT so that I can A/B easier, but those were my initial impressions.

Anyone else???

[redddog]

I just ordered a pair of the FH II. Can't wait to get my hands on 'em. I may have a matched pair of Dorsey modded MC-012s for sale soon! I think the ribbons will be much more suited to my style.

I'll tell you, Michael from Bayview Sound(Cascade's distibutor) is not shy about his opinion of these two mics. He says the FH is hands down better than the Royer. I'm interested to see. If it's even close to the Royer, it'll be a hell of a good deal.

[redddog]

Hey Bill

What did you like the FH better on and what did you like the Royer better on?

Sounds like you'd pick the FH over the 84 either way.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by redddog

I'll tell you, Michael from Bayview Sound(Cascade's distibutor) is not shy about his opinion of these two mics. He says the FH is hands down better than the Royer.

No way. Maybe on some stuff. But a blanket statement like that is just wrong and reeks of hypey salesmanship. There is no doubt that on certain clips the Royer is a much more "expensive" and "better" sounding mic - leaving the FH souning like a cheap budget mic.

Originally Posted by redddog

What did you like the FH better on and what did you like the Royer better on?

Sounds like you'd pick the FH over the 84 either way.

Each of the 3 mics had their place at times. Keep in mind that the arbitrary placement of the mics could make it lean towards picking any one over the other.

I liked the fatheads on some of the chunky rhythm stuff. I tended to like the 121 on the lead stuff. The Royer was definately a more "hi-fi" sound for lack of a better term. The 84 was a little too thick on most of the clips for my taste. Pulling the mics back a bit would probably have favored the 84 more, but that would have undoubtably left the fathead not sounding as good so..........placement is the wildcard here. Also, solo'd clips are good, but ultimately we always hear the sound in a mix, so my opinion could definately change depending on the song or density of the mix.

I kept wishing they had a Joly modded 205 in the shootoout, but I daresay that would have not been good for the fathead.

At any rate, it goes to show that the mics are very similar and that in certain circumstances, ANY of them could be the right pic, with any of the others following closely behind.

[redddog]

Hmmmm. Your initial impression seems a hell of a lot better than your second.

[drBill]

??? Seems the same to me. I said in the first post that sometimes I liked the fathead and sometiimes the royer. I'm not brand loyal. Whatever works. Sometiimes the royer sounds better than the fathead. So?? It's all good. Get both.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by redddog

Hmmmm. Your initial impression seems a hell of a lot better than your second.

where's you get that from? I read the same things in both posts from the same guy, just more detail in the second post.

Anyway, I think that the salesman who said the fathead is better than the 121 is full of it or ignorant. it's not true, they're both good mics. maybe both great mics. but the royer stuff is amazing and used professionally every day, so I doubt it's lacking anything at all. THe fathead has a different response and sounds better on some things. I expect the fathead sounds similar to a modded apex 205, which is also a great mic but again only on the right source in the right room, and dare I say, if you're in the right mood it sounds great on everything but if you're in the wrong mood it doesn't?? I think many strong character mics are like that...

But also, to suggest that the 121 should sound better because it costs a lot more is sort of elitist IMHO. As long as you're not using cardboard and sticky tape to make a mic, you can make one that sounds great, and it's more how much you know about designing than what materials you use to build it that matter to the main sound of the mic. That's been proven many times. I wouldn't say a 121 is a better mic than an SM57. But it costs a ton more. They're just different. And a fathead costs a LOT more than a 57 (at least from what I've seen). So I think any single microphone that costs anywhere from $50 to $20,000 can sound better on certain sources etc than some other mic from $50 to $20,000. So I wouldn't be dissing the fathead based on price or assuming the 121 is better based on price.

Not sure if that's what was intended a few posts earlier but just thought I'd get on my soapbox for a sec. I'm done now! No harm intended, I think probably I misinterpreted the meaning earlier. I also get funny about things like this sometimes (such as price versus sound quality). :-)

Cheers,
Don

[drBill]

Originally Posted by dkelley

Not sure if that's what was intended a few posts earlier but just thought I'd get on my soapbox for a sec. I'm done now! No harm intended, I think probably I misinterpreted the meaning earlier. I also get funny about things like this sometimes (such as price versus sound quality). :-)

Cheers,
Don

Don, I think Reddog just wanted to hear good things about his new purchase. But back to the point, have you heard the demo comparison CD?

That's what this post was about, not a pissing match as to which was better. Except for the Joly modded 205. Now THAT mic......

[redddog]

Originally Posted by drBill

Don, I think Reddog just wanted to hear good things about his new purchase. But back to the point, have you heard the demo comparison CD?

That's what this post was about, not a pissing match as to which was better. Except for the Joly modded 205. Now THAT mic......

Maybe so, Bill. Sorry if I came off like a ******-bag.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by drBill

Don, I think Reddog just wanted to hear good things about his new purchase. But back to the point, have you heard the demo comparison CD?

That's what this post was about, not a pissing match as to which was better. Except for the Joly modded 205. Now THAT mic......

nope, and I wasn't pointing out any views on it either, only on my personal use of 121s (which is limited but at least I've used them professionally) and of the fathead (which I tried a couple times but haven't gotten to use professionally, but at least I'm familiar with it's sound a little bit).

I mostly think I got my point across though, no worries. :-)

I can't say anything about the cd, haven't heard and probably won't hear it. I don't put enough trust into other people's ideas of how something should be recorded to bother getting a cd LoL. Even the listening sessions site only gives a vague idea of what each mic sounds like, and while it's a great resource and fairly well done, I personally don't think that any of it is really worth deciding on a mic purchase (er, "based on" should be in that sentence somewhere, holy grammar batman!). unless I get to use a mic for a while myself, I won't say what's good or bad for my needs. I know I love my stock 205s LoL. 121s are great mics, quite a bit better performing and more even frequency response (from my experience anyway) than the fathead or 205. Does that make them better mics? depends on how you want to use them...

Cheers,
Don

[drBill]

Originally Posted by redddog

Sorry if I came off like a ******-bag.

Not at all. No worries dude. I think we all get excited when getting some new toys and are hoping for the best. I hope they work out well for you. I think they are definately worth the bread. Unfortunately for those of us in search of the ultimate.....we end up buying lots of mics.

[redddog]

Originally Posted by drBill

Not at all. No worries dude. I think we all get excited when getting some new toys and are hoping for the best. I hope they work out well for you. I think they are definately worth the bread. Unfortunately for those of us in search of the ultimate.....we end up buying lots of mics.

Would you suggest holding on to the Oktavas? I"m pretty sure I know what your answer will be but I was thinking that if the FHs didn't work out perfectly, I could grab some of those Audio Technica ATM-450s.

I dunno.

[drBill]

I try not to get rid of mics unless I really hate them. Each one will be great sometimes and not so good on others. You can't have too many mics IMO. Live with the FH's for awhile and see how they work in comparison to the oktavas. Those are two really different directions as far as mic transducers go. Personally....I'd keep both. (You knew I was going to say that didn't you??)

[redddog]

Thanks, Bill - you predictable son of a bitch. LOL

Appreciate your help.

[heybulldog]

I was thinking of getting a royer or peluso ribbon microphone. I have been struggling with trying to find the cash for one, but now I hear alot of nashville cats are prefering these fatheads. It seems to good to be true. I will be using the ribbon with electric guitars pair with a 57 or 609 silver.

will the cascade get me in the ballpark sound quality wise with the royer and or peluso?

What is the consensus on this fathead and guitars? good bad ugly?

[mds]

No shootout experience from me, but I used the 121 on tablas last night and it sounded freakin amazing with no EQ, no nothin'. I just kinda put the mic up to get a sound and was stunned at how great the 121 worked for that application. It did excellent room mic duties on kit as well...I like how the 121 isn't too dark, too fat, etc. It has the great qualities of a ribbon without losing detail or transients. Its on my must have list...good thing everywhere I work has one!! :-)

Mike

[drBill]

Originally Posted by heybulldog

will the cascade get me in the ballpark sound quality wise with the royer and or peluso? What is the consensus on this fathead and guitars? good bad ugly?

The abovementioned CD will give you a pretty good idea. I wish they had put a 57 up as well, but you'll definately see the differences in the mics. Order the CD - it's free.

Originally Posted by mds

I like how the 121 isn't too dark, too fat, etc. It has the great qualities of a ribbon without losing detail or transients.

Mike - I agree. While other ribbons seem darker, the 121 has the ribbon qualities, but almost in a Large Diaphram Condenser-ish sort of way. But the fathead sounds better that it sometimes. Gotta get both!

[dasoundjunkie]

Originally Posted by drBill

Has anyone listened to the Cascade produced CD shooting out the Fathead vs. 121 vs. 84?

(Upper L hand corner for ordering the free CD)
Ribbon Microphones Cascade FAT HEAD

Interesting stuff. In some cases I liked the Fathead over either the 121 or 84. In other cases I liked the 121. The fathead seems to have a little more "hair" on it than the 121. The 121 seemed to be a little more "refined" sounding with more highs and smoother - almost more LDC-like. The Fathead seemed to sit about halfway between the 84 and the 121. I want to do some more listening with the files imported into PT so that I can A/B easier, but those were my initial impressions.

Anyone else???

Hey guys
This cd was the result of a shootout that I did with some friends of mine who own the R-121 the FAT HEAD II and the R-84. A couple of weeks ago I posted that I had done this shootout and had recommended that before anyone buys either of the expensive mics they should rent or borrow them and do the test themselves. Prior to doing this test I had zero experience with ribbon mics so I was fully expecting the Fat Head to get it's ass handed to it !! Imagine our surprise when we all ended up liking the FAT HEAD best overall, what's more the owner of the ROYER bought 2 Fat Heads and the stereo x15 and the AEA owner ended up buying an x15(by the way the x15 sounds like 2 Fat Heads). I sent the cd to Cascade and they (with my permission )put it up on their web site. I don't work for Cascade but I thought that something that sounds this good should be common knowledge for those of us that don't have a lot of money! I've also made test recordings of drums with the x15 on drum over-heads and room and was again extremely impressed. If you get the cd try the following experiment: use EQ to match the sound of the Fat-head to the other 2 mics. I used the EQ on my Ghost console and with very minimal tweaks had really good results!
Leo Alvarez SoundJunkie Recording, Later

[dasoundjunkie]

That's what this post was about, not a pissing match as to which was better. Except for the Joly modded 205. Now THAT mic......[/quote]
Hi can you tell me more about that mic (who sells it ect) it sounds like something I'd like to try!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by dasoundjunkie

Hi can you tell me more about that mic (who sells it ect) it sounds like something I'd like to try!

Hey Leo, thanks for doing the comparisons. I enjoyed the CD and thought that it gives a good idea of what all the mics generally sound like. And also lets you know how similar they are, but what the main differences are. I see the most difference between the royer and the FH. The royer just has more "polish" to it if that's what your'e looking for. The FH has a more raw sound which can be good....or in some circumstances when compared to the royer...it can sound "cheaper".

Ultimately, one needs to try them for themselves cause naked clips have no bearing in reality as to how the sound is going to fit into a mix - that is where the rubber meets the road.

As for the X15 - most of the clips I've heard have had some weird imaging things going on. I like the tone but don't like the imaging. If it's truly 2 FH's, I'd buy the two and call it good so that I could mess with my own imaging placement.

As for the 205 - it's the Apex205. the smaller brother of the initial ribbon offering that everyone picked up a couple years ago (the 210, etc.). The head basket and body of the mic ring much less than the 210 and most prefer the 205 to the 210. Stock it sound pretty good and can be had for $82.00. Michael Joly of Oktavamod does mods to them. He puts in a Lundhal transformer, removes the restrictive mesh in the head basket and dampens the body. He also can provide an optional shockmount. The mods open the mic up on the top and bottom. All I know is that this mic blew me away. I'd love to hear it in a shootout similar to the one you did. I'm sure it would hold it's own well.

Cheers,

Bill

[dasoundjunkie]

Originally Posted by drBill

Hey Leo, thanks for doing the comparisons. I enjoyed the CD and thought that it gives a good idea of what all the mics generally sound like. And also lets you know how similar they are, but what the main differences are. I see the most difference between the royer and the FH. The royer just has more "polish" to it if that's what your'e looking for. The FH has a more raw sound which can be good....or in some circumstances when compared to the royer...it can sound "cheaper".

Ultimately, one needs to try them for themselves cause naked clips have no bearing in reality as to how the sound is going to fit into a mix - that is where the rubber meets the road.

As for the X15 - most of the clips I've heard have had some weird imaging things going on. I like the tone but don't like the imaging. If it's truly 2 FH's, I'd buy the two and call it good so that I could mess with my own imaging placement.

As for the 205 - it's the Apex205. the smaller brother of the initial ribbon offering that everyone picked up a couple years ago (the 210, etc.). The head basket and body of the mic ring much less than the 210 and most prefer the 205 to the 210. Stock it sound pretty good and can be had for $82.00. Michael Joly of Oktavamod does mods to them. He puts in a Lundhal transformer, removes the restrictive mesh in the head basket and dampens the body. He also can provide an optional shockmount. The mods open the mic up on the top and bottom. All I know is that this mic blew me away. I'd love to hear it in a shootout similar to the one you did. I'm sure it would hold it's own well.

Cheers,

Bill

Glad you enjoyed it! As far as the Fat Head sounding cheaper man I just didn't hear that, actually to everyone involved in the shootout The Royer came dead last exept in the clean guitar sound but again YMMV! To be honest I thought that the FH II was tone wise right smack in the middle of the other 2 mics with th Royer being the leanest and the AEA being the thickest! More to the point we didn't hear a quality difference so much as a tone difference . IMHO I thought that the FATHEAD had the best balance of hi to mid to low, and I swear to you that no one was more surprised than me! My recommendation ,try them both head to head 'cause I simply don't feel the sound difference matches the price difference. As I said before I was able to match the sound of either of the other mics with very minimal EQ to the point that no one in the control room cold tell them apart!! Really great stuff! If I was to choose one of the other mics it would be the AEA 'cause I really loved it's thick low end which I attribute to the AEA having a larger ribbon overall!( but hell what do I know?) Guys ,try them on your own DON"T take my word for it!! If you are able to put your preconceptions aside along with the cost of the mics I think you'll be as surprised as I was! Thanx for the info about the modded 205 I'll probably be looking at them next!
Later

[drBill]

Originally Posted by dasoundjunkie

Glad you enjoyed it! As far as the Fat Head sounding cheaper man I just didn't hear that, actually to everyone involved in the shootout The Royer came dead last exept in the clean guitar sound but again YMMV! To be honest I thought that the FH II was tone wise right smack in the middle of the other 2 mics with th Royer being the leanest and the AEA being the thickest! More to the point we didn't hear a quality difference so much as a tone difference . IMHO I thought that the FATHEAD had the best balance of hi to mid to low, and I swear to you that no one was more surprised than me! My recommendation ,try them both head to head 'cause I simply don't feel the sound difference matches the price difference. As I said before I was able to match the sound of either of the other mics with very minimal EQ to the point that no one in the control room cold tell them apart!! Really great stuff! If I was to choose one of the other mics it would be the AEA 'cause I really loved it's thick low end which I attribute to the AEA having a larger ribbon overall!( but hell what do I know?) Guys ,try them on your own DON"T take my word for it!! If you are able to put your preconceptions aside along with the cost of the mics I think you'll be as surprised as I was! Thanx for the info about the modded 205 I'll probably be looking at them next!
Later

Leo - I agree with you about the royer being the leanest and the 84 the fattest. I guess for me, the 84 seemed just too fat for the application (gtr amps). For power trio or more open stuff, it might be just the ticket, but the stuff I do is generally more dense and layered, so I know I'd have to be thinning it out. That's one of the reasons I usually combine a ribbon with an i5 or 57 on amps. For mando's and some ac gtrs, it might be just the ticket....but I haven't quite been able to wrap my head around a ribbon on those instruments just yet. Guess I need more experimentation.

The royer just sounded elegant for lack of a better term on some of the gtr tones. One of the leads in particular. That's of course a personal preference. On that particular guitar part, I just felt the FH sounded a bit raggedy while the royer seemed refined.

I definately agree that for anyone on a budget, they are so close as to make the FH a no brainer. For those who are serious sluts, they will want to have all 3.

I'd love to hear a little more on your thoughts on the X15. Did you experience any weird imaging issues? Thx.

Bill

[Hint]

Is the Fathead the same mic as the T Bone RM700?

[redddog]

I would say by the looks, yes, it seems to be the exact same mic.

[StevieRaveOn]

Quick question guys... Are the transformer replacements in mics like this a real trouble to do? I'd like to go ahead and snap up some for a session I've got to do soon, but I'd also like to try the upgraded xfmrs eventually.

I'm comfortable with a soldering iron and modding things, I've just never done a mic before and didn't want to dummy it up. Are the Lundahls or Cine-Mags labeled for the leads, or is it fairly obvious for the orientation and all???

[Hint]

Originally Posted by redddog

I would say by the looks, yes, it seems to be the exact same mic.

Both looks and price certainly seem to match up with the Fathead. I'm tempted to grab one to try out.

Thanks.

[dasoundjunkie]

Originally Posted by drBill

Leo - I agree with you about the royer being the leanest and the 84 the fattest. I guess for me, the 84 seemed just too fat for the application (gtr amps). For power trio or more open stuff, it might be just the ticket, but the stuff I do is generally more dense and layered, so I know I'd have to be thinning it out. That's one of the reasons I usually combine a ribbon with an i5 or 57 on amps. For mando's and some ac gtrs, it might be just the ticket....but I haven't quite been able to wrap my head around a ribbon on those instruments just yet. Guess I need more experimentation.

The royer just sounded elegant for lack of a better term on some of the gtr tones. One of the leads in particular. That's of course a personal preference. On that particular guitar part, I just felt the FH sounded a bit raggedy while the royer seemed refined.

I definately agree that for anyone on a budget, they are so close as to make the FH a no brainer. For those who are serious sluts, they will want to have all 3.

I'd love to hear a little more on your thoughts on the X15. Did you experience any weird imaging issues? Thx.

Bill

Hey YMMV but I still think the FH sounds smoother and fuller! As for the x-15 I've had great results with it in both over-head and room drum applications although I prefer it in room as I thought that the stereo image (in my room ) was too wide for over-heads. The demo from Cascade web-site has a couple of samples of this but the mp3 sounds a little weird, almost like the image is a bit off , something I don't hear in the original recording witch is solid and stable. ( I did have to invert the phase on one of the capsules on OH applications in my room)
Right now the Fat Heads have replaced a pair of Earthworks SR-78 as my new over-head mics and the earthworks have been moved to hi hat and ride duty were they just kill!! The x-15 has become my primary room mic replacing a pair of Earthworks QTC-1 omnis and have me veeeeery happy!
Some food for thought , but I'm guessing the reason that we all liked the FH better was because we felt it sounded truest to the amp in the room, it just felt like you were in front of the amp and this opinion was also felt by the OWNER of the Royer(Hector Santiago) who said several times aloud "I can't believe I paid 1300 bucks for this mic!!!" and then bought 2 FH and 1 x-15.We really do believe that these mics are all in the same league quality wise and again the proof is that the other mic owners ,Hector and Jose Vila(who owns the R-84) , both ended up buying the Cascade mics! If I had bags of money would I buy all 3 ? You bet ! Do I feel short changed by the Cascades? Nope, I'm as happy as a clam! Get them all in the same room with the same source and try them yourself because If I hadn't done this myself I wouldn't have believed it, period.
Happy recording!

[dasoundjunkie]

Originally Posted by Hint

Is the Fathead the same mic as the T Bone RM700?

Looks almost exactly the same exept that the FH has a wider grill!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by dasoundjunkie

Hey YMMV but I still think the FH sounds smoother and fuller! As for the x-15 I've had great results with it in both over-head and room drum applications although I prefer it in room as I thought that the stereo image (in my room ) was too wide for over-heads. The demo from Cascade web-site has a couple of samples of this but the mp3 sounds a little weird, almost like the image is a bit off , something I don't hear in the original recording witch is solid and stable. ( I did have to invert the phase on one of the capsules on OH applications in my room)
Right now the Fat Heads have replaced a pair of Earthworks SR-78 as my new over-head mics and the earthworks have been moved to hi hat and ride duty were they just kill!! The x-15 has become my primary room mic replacing a pair of Earthworks QTC-1 omnis and have me veeeeery happy!
Some food for thought , but I'm guessing the reason that we all liked the FH better was because we felt it sounded truest to the amp in the room, it just felt like you were in front of the amp and this opinion was also felt by the OWNER of the Royer(Hector Santiago) who said several times aloud "I can't believe I paid 1300 bucks for this mic!!!" and then bought 2 FH and 1 x-15.We really do believe that these mics are all in the same league quality wise and again the proof is that the other mic owners ,Hector and Jose Vila(who owns the R-84) , both ended up buying the Cascade mics! If I had bags of money would I buy all 3 ? You bet ! Do I feel short changed by the Cascades? Nope, I'm as happy as a clam! Get them all in the same room with the same source and try them yourself because If I hadn't done this myself I wouldn't have believed it, period.
Happy recording!

Thanks Leo! You can't beat being in the room and hearing it, then going into the CRM to listen back. As for the X15, maybe it was the phase thing I was hearing - or perhaps the image being too wide due to the angle of the ribbons. Where are you putting the X15 when you use it for drum room mic. Out front of the kit? Thanks again for the test. You rock!

[dasoundjunkie]

Originally Posted by Hint

Is the Fathead the same mic as the T Bone RM700?

I did a little digging and if I'm correct the difference between the 2 mics is internal, the FH uses a symmetrical ribbon wich means it sounds identical on both sides , something I've confirmed on the mics I own. On the newer versions of the mics the grills are bowed out , this is supposed to make it sound more open, not having this version of the mic I can't confirm this but the ones I own ARE a little more bowed out than the T BONE .
Later