ff800 vs ensemble

[rodge]

not sure if this is high end or low end but here we go anyway.

looking at replacing my 828mkii with better pre's, clock, conversion.

RME fireface 800 being one option.

Apogee Ensemble being another.

simple question, which one "sounds" better? they both have all the features i need.

also using presonus digimaxlt for #of inputs, and samson c-controller for routing

thanks

[Dale]

look at metric halo....
2882 or uln 2 excellent product

[rodge]

checking out...

[rodge]

looks pretty tight. everythings there. although they're really pushing the portable part which i have no interest in, and they're pushing the dsp thing which i also dont care for

i just wanna know how the clock, conversion, and pre-amps compare to the 800 and ensemble.

[burt3k]

if you want to use the preamps get the ensemble!
it really is that simple

[rodge]

Originally Posted by burt3k

if you want to use the preamps get the ensemble!
it really is that simple

yes i do plan on using them. and u can opt to bypass the pre-amps too right? which is always sexy.

MORE need more reviews more input!

....free blowjobs??....

[dibravibra]

first you have to remove samson c-controller from your chain..

[rodge]

Originally Posted by dibravibra

first you have to remove samson c-controller from your chain..

explain??? all responses have been so vague! haha

[dibravibra]

C-control ruins your sound. It has a kind of thin, plastic, glassy and unfocused character. Very, very unprofessional piece of gear..

[rodge]

Originally Posted by dibravibra

C-control ruins your sound. It has a kind of thin, plastic, glassy and unfocused character. Very, very unprofessional piece of gear..

ill test i out once im back in there on tues. thanks for heads up.

[jordanh]

I was in the same boat...after a ton of research and posting on here (if you search you will probably find a million threads), I decided on the Apogee Ensemble.

Originally looking at the FF800, it seemed the pre's weren't the workhorse I needed. The metric halo stuff was attractive, but unfortunately the ULN-2 has the better pres, but only 2 of them...

I got the ensemble and so far I think its great. Really, I don't think you'll go wrong with any of them, but if you need 4 pres, and 8 ADA, then the ensemble is where its at, im my opinion at least. But if you can get by with 2 pres, the MH ULN-2 is pretty hot.

[ThrillHo]

I have a FF800 and my opinion biased because I haven't used the ensemble. However, I find it hard to justify the cost of the ensemble as opposed to a refurbished FF800 ($1250). The pres are totally usable. They will never get in the way of a great source. The I/O on the FF800 is out of this world. And for the extra money, you could get a DAV BG1, or an Apogee Mini Me for the same price and you would have 6 mic pres. Unless your instruments and acoustic tracking/listening environments are really good, I seriously doubt the converters on the FF800 will be a weak link, and more importantly, probably won't have any effect on your mixing decisions.

Also, let me emphasize that the FF800 has 10 analog inputs, not 8. If you're tracking a whole band or drums, those extra two inputs really help, assuming off of course you don't have outboard A/D.

[rodge]

the producer across the hall from me, ryan dahl (limblifter, age of electric) has the ensemble, ill see if i can borrow it for a test run perhaps.

how do the preamps on th digimaxlt stand up to the ensembles???

[jordanh]

Originally Posted by ThrillHo

I have a FF800 and my opinion biased because I haven't used the ensemble. However, I find it hard to justify the cost of the ensemble as opposed to a refurbished FF800 ($1250)...

Thrill, from using the ensemble and the ff800, and hearing many many recordings done from both, I wouldn;t hesitate to say its a great unit. Id love to get one eventually, a pretty cheap solution for really decent converters with usable pre's if needed. However, I was able to get a brand new ensemble for just under $1400 dollars, so for me, four really really decent pre's were worth it being that this was the only purchase i could afford for a while and the only thing Ill be recording through right now...no other gear.

That being said, it has room to expand with great converters once I can afford more pres...it's all about what you need, and for me, for right now, and for a while, the ensemble will be more than enough with room for expanding...one day id love to own both a ff800 and the MH stuff-- and of course more "high end" and certain "colored" gear but....that arsenal can only build so quickly :(

Im glad you are loving your FF800 though, I had a great time with it messing around on some friends...

[MaestroNYC]

Originally Posted by jordanh

I was in the same boat...after a ton of research and posting on here (if you search you will probably find a million threads), I decided on the Apogee Ensemble.

*bump*

Hey Jordanh...
Am in similar boat and looking at the Ensemble, FF800 and metric halo. Just curious now that you've had several more months with the ensemble what your thoughts are??

Also Rodge, what did you decide to go with??

Thanks!

[mmcfarlane]

I am at the same decision point between the Ensemble and Fireface800. My selection criteria are, in order of importance

1) Rock solid drivers under OSX 10.4.x using Cubase 4
2) A/D converter quality
3) D/A converter quality
4) Preamp quality

The drivers for me are the most important thing, and that's what has scared me away from Mackie's 1200F which, if it ever ships, has a better feature set and the pres have been rated very well as utility pres.

I not willing to trade a small improvement in sound quality for driver reliability. I want the damn thing to work when I turn it on.

Anyone using the Ensemble with OSX 10.4.x and Cubase 4?

[jordanh]

Originally Posted by MaestroNYC

*bump*
Hey Jordanh...
Am in similar boat and looking at the Ensemble, FF800 and metric halo. Just curious now that you've had several more months with the ensemble what your thoughts are??

Well, I was looking at all three (well 4 counting both MH products) and decided to go with the ensemble. Everyone here raves about their MH units. Everyone here raves about their ensembles. In my experience, I know people who upgraded fromm firefaces to ensembles and were extremely happy.

I know I am. Sometimes I hear what my ensemble is doing and I am just simply amazed. Even my rode NT2-A sounds pretty good through it, and I always thought that thing destroyed my ears.

I think the Ensemble is a notch up in quality (in my opinion) than the other four options (both FF and MH units) but the ultimate factory is going to be feature set-- which the ensemble is packed too.... it comes down to what you need.

The ensemble was my first major (recording) purchase and it was the right one. I can't afford additional pres and stuff right now, so in one package, I got 4 really great transparent pres and amazgin ADDA (in my opinion again e). I can't wait to see what happens when I get some other pres through it.

Hope that helps!

[MaestroNYC]

That helps a lot... thanks!
Glad to hear it is working out so well for you.

I am curious what kind of music do you record? Other gear, DAW & Mics?
(I do both classical and rock)


Also, I've been hearing about some slutz picking theirs up for $1,400-$1,600. The cheapest I found was $1850!

BTW - Your shirts and gear are cool :-)

[jordanh]

I record all kind of stuff, from folk to pop, rap...you name it.

Some of my friends own nice Neumann and high end mics, and I use them whenever I can. I myself only have (mics are my next purchase but I just got a Sitar) that Rode NT2-A and some other dynamic mics (57's, i5'S...etc)

I usually have access to nicer mics which is why I haven't bought them yet, but its time to own them myself!

Right now I am using Logic 8 on my machine and at school and elsewhere I usually run pro tools. We just got that new toft console in one of our studios at school so I suspect I will be in there a lot with my ensemble to avoid there 003....which i havent played with yet.

I also got mine for $1400 brand new so it was totally worth it for me... :)

Thanks for the compliments on the shirts. I started from talking to people on GS and since then, it has expanded into all kinds of different territories (synths, theremins...etc) and it's been getting more popular lately. I've seen over 4,000 hits this month alone so far so I am really excited. I've been designing a ton of new synth shirts people requested, so if oyu have any ideas, (recording related or anything else) let me know! Maybe youll even see something you like, ehe

Well, as you can tell, i really love my ensemble...and at $1400, I dont think you can beat getting the quality and options that you get with it. Hell, even at $1800!

[MaestroNYC]

That is really great you have access to high end mics and other gear!
I've got a NT1000 and K2 and really love the K2. Hope to rent some higher end mics when I can to get a feel for them.

Sitar. Nice

When I get some spending $$$, will get a shirt!

So where did you get an Ensemble for $1,400?????!!!!!!

[mds]

I just want to add that the Metric Halo stuff does not do standalone mode at all. This may not effect many, but you can't used it as an A/D in front of a Digi002 or something like that.

Mike

[Baz]

Originally Posted by rodge

not sure if this is high end or low end but here we go anyway.

looking at replacing my 828mkii with better pre's, clock, conversion.

RME fireface 800 being one option.

Apogee Ensemble being another.

simple question, which one "sounds" better? they both have all the features i need.

also using presonus digimaxlt for #of inputs, and samson c-controller for routing

thanks

I'm going to get to do a direct comparison on the 22nd. Looking forward to it and hoping that the Ensemble's pre's are better than the 800's. The FF pre's aren't that bad, just sorta bland but I have no complaints about the ADDA.

OT: I see crosstown studios listed in your sig. Are they still in N.Van? I remember them from years ago but thought they moved or closed? They were just a stone throw away from Baker's studio if i remember correctly.

[MaestroNYC]

Originally Posted by Baz

I'm going to get to do a direct comparison on the 22nd. Looking forward to it and hoping that the Ensemble's pre's are better than the 800's. The FF pre's aren't that bad, just sorta bland but I have no complaints about the ADDA.

Awesome... please post your results and perhaps even post some A/B comparisons!!!!

[wirrareka]

ola, any news ?

Originally Posted by Baz

I'm going to get to do a direct comparison on the 22nd. Looking forward to it and hoping that the Ensemble's pre's are better than the 800's. The FF pre's aren't that bad, just sorta bland but I have no complaints about the ADDA.

[jeronimo]

curious too...

[mdme_sadie]

Same here, I'm considering both and want to know whether the "hiss"/"hum" issue that some ensemble users reported has been resolved. Also if the the gate "pop" on audio playback, and crash on turn on/off have been fixed. They both look so good that I can't decide which would be best to get.

[eMM]

Originally Posted by mds

I just want to add that the Metric Halo stuff does not do standalone mode at all. This may not effect many, but you can't used it as an A/D in front of a Digi002 or something like that.

Mike

Sure it does. I've used it.

From mhlabs.com
"In standalone mode, the ULN-2 operates with the converters directly routed to and from the AES/SPDIF I/O. As standalone converter, the ULN-2 provides a 24bit/96kHz stereo front-end with ultra-low noise mic pres for any recording system..."

[Baz]

Originally Posted by wirrareka

ola, any news ?

Sorry guys, the Ensemble was supposed to be available for this gig I had Oct 22-28 but the guy couldn't get it with his new IMBP and wanted to wait until both were in.

Looks to be several weeks off still but I will be sure to comeback and comment on my findings once I can compare. Maybe between now and then, someone else will have had the opportunity to compare.

[mdme_sadie]

I tried out both interfaces very briefly though. My thoughts as an amateur bedroom musician are as follows:

The Fireface - Solid, well built and dull, that's a good thing because you can see you're basically getting a very nice dry signal - you add the excitement in afterwards yourself.

The converters are excellent and the unit itself as absolutely silent, no hiss or strange sounds no matter what the volume, though it does sound a little... spongy or soggy when monitoring, so while it's excellent at getting audio in it's maybe not the unit you want to use to actually monitor the results.

The software that comes with it is pretty unintuitive thanks to an over-reliance on abbreviations and an interface that likes to swap around a little. It also failed to store the data correctly on the card for me, so I was forced to change the setting each time i used it.

Preamps are acceptable on the FireFace, again clean and characterless.

Latency was very low indeed with the Fireface, this of course is regardless of the buffer size, but the ADC DAC and all the bits inbetween ran very smoothly and giving such a small delay that even with software monitoring it would be acceptable to play along with.

The Ensemble - Pretty to look at, but with a number of strange faults. While some users have commented on hiss coming through the monitoring channels with nothing connected i found this unit to be totally silent, however when playing back audio i was aware of a hiss during the audio and then an audible click when the audio came to the end, so it appears to have a gate in there (and an inferior one at that), the sound is also very flattened for monitoring, there is very little dynamic... but you really can hear everything, every fault.

I believe that it may have a multiband compressor and this may be the root cause of this, both the benefits and the faults, it seems to be compressing the high ends an awful lot. Unfortunately I was using Leopard so I couldn't fully test out the software to see if there was any way of reducing/removing this. Don't get me wrong, the sound itself is amazing, the most clear and spread out sound you've ever heard, this is a piece of Hi-Fi equipment right here and for monitoring it's ahead of the FireFace by quite a margin in terms or clarity, but due to the compression it's down in terms of dynamics. The bass while there and present seems to sit way back in the mix, the odd thing is you can hear it all but it's less noticeable and lacks punch.

The preamps on the Ensemble are seriously nice, clean and plenty of gain with a nice tone that adds very little character, but what character it does add is very musical.

Latency is a bit of a sticky point, the ensemble seemed to have a significant delay between the note entering and the note being monitored, this without software monitoring. It's not unworkable, but it's at that edge, the RME was much better here. The buffer sizes also had to be larger for the Ensemble to work than with the FF800 which compounded the issue, as of course most of the latency is coming from the conversion through the unit before it even hits the computer.

However to be fair I suspect that there are some serious problems with OSX Leopard right now, all buffers i've used have had to be doubled, and CPU usage is 2x what it was on Tiger (though application performance is the same apart from dropouts due to cpu overload), currently Leopard in my experience is not an OS suitable for music production.

Be aware that Apogee currently have not got working software for OSX Leopard, the card is like the RME Core Audio compliant so you can just plug in and play, however to access most of the routine and gain controls you need software access. Apogee are the one manufacturer that I can see dragging their feet, even Alesis have managed to release Beta drivers for Leopard at this point. This is a serious problem as the Ensemble is advertised as being fully Apple integrated. Many people have complained about flakeyness with their past drivers too, even to the point of calling it a "Beta Product". For a company that tries to sell itself as being in bed with apple this is not good.

Listening to The German Requiem through this unit left me feeling cold and emotionally detached, while through the RME it had the passion and depth there, the same for many other things, through Comfortably Numb, You Know You're Right, some Feeder and some Nina Simone, however to be fair that's not the points of such units, and I could pick up on the faults far easier with the Ensemble than with the RME, the separation was better too on the Ensemble, I just wish that there was