not pissing off the neighbors

[day-go]

so i have a basement studio (i use the term loosely) located in a quiet residential neighborhood. the room is concrete and sounds like crap, and i'm finally getting ready to invest in some serious room treatment.

lately, the neighbors have become downright irrational, getting pissed off when we play music in the middle of the afternoon on a weekend (we've always been very good about not playing late at night) unfortunately, the studio is located in a city with a very lame noise ordinance--anybody can complain and shut you down at any time of the day.

so my question is this: what is the best way to minimize the amount of sound leaking from the house? i know from reading the forums that isolation is key, but i have a few questions:

1) the ceiling in this room is pretty low to begin with, so i'm worried about placing absorbers on the ceiling. the problem is complicated by the fact that we eventually plan on building a floating floor over the concrete. if we try to build a smaller room within the room for isolation purposes, we might not be able to stand up. still, would building walls spaced out from the concrete walls help the situation? or would the sound leaking out through the ceiling make this pointless? (i imagine there isn't a ton of sound leaking out through the concrete walls)

2) the ceiling has beams running across it. would stuffing 703 or some other kind of fiberglass insulation in between these beams be helpful? how about building a dropped ceiling?

3) where would be the best place to start? the basement has windows--would slapping some 703 panels over these do anything to keep sound from leaking out?

[GearGeek]

Are you sure about your noise ordinance? Where do you live? That doesn't sound right. That would mean that no one could ever do construction or even gardening on their house because they can be shut down at any time.

If you live in an apartment, you have less freedom because the management can shut you down at any time. But if you live in a house you should be able to make a reasonable amount of noise during the daytime.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by day-go

so i have a basement studio (i use the term loosely) located in a quiet residential neighborhood. the room is concrete and sounds like crap, and i'm finally getting ready to invest in some serious room treatment.

lately, the neighbors have become downright irrational, getting pissed off when we play music in the middle of the afternoon on a weekend (we've always been very good about not playing late at night) unfortunately, the studio is located in a city with a very lame noise ordinance--anybody can complain and shut you down at any time of the day.

so my question is this: what is the best way to minimize the amount of sound leaking from the house? i know from reading the forums that isolation is key, but i have a few questions:

1) the ceiling in this room is pretty low to begin with, so i'm worried about placing absorbers on the ceiling. the problem is complicated by the fact that we eventually plan on building a floating floor over the concrete. if we try to build a smaller room within the room for isolation purposes, we might not be able to stand up. still, would building walls spaced out from the concrete walls help the situation? or would the sound leaking out through the ceiling make this pointless? (i imagine there isn't a ton of sound leaking out through the concrete walls)

2) the ceiling has beams running across it. would stuffing 703 or some other kind of fiberglass insulation in between these beams be helpful? how about building a dropped ceiling?

3) where would be the best place to start? the basement has windows--would slapping some 703 panels over these do anything to keep sound from leaking out?

You are confusing room acoustics and sound proofing. You would use 703 inside of the room to help with the acoustics. Sound proofing can only be done with THICK HARD MASS, like concrete. Also you would need to build a room inside of a room. Your best bet is to rent a practice room somewhere. Sound proofing a room can cost WAY more then a life time of a band practicing in a rented practice room.

Glenn

[6strings]

Originally Posted by day-go

still, would building walls spaced out from the concrete walls help the situation?

Yes, I've done this. You want to put resillient channel on the wood frame and then use the prescribed (1"?) screws to hang your drywall so the screws go into the channel only and not the wood. Also, you'll need to caulk all joints to keep air/sound out.

the ceiling has beams running across it. would stuffing 703 or some other kind of fiberglass insulation in between these beams be helpful? how about building a dropped ceiling?

YES, but not 703. Get dense mineral fiber insulation (not the rigid stuff) and stuff that up there. Leave a bit of an air gap at the top. Then, so long as you can afford it, put in a drop ceiling called Ceiling Max and put some 2x2 acoustical panels in there. The Ceiling Max system attaches to the joists so you don't lose room height. Resillient channel w/drywall would offer better sound proofing, but it'll sound aweful inside the room and you'll need to spend another bundle on fixing room acoustics. (I've gone through all this)

ACP - Surface Mount Grid System CeilingMAX

That's the basics of it. Do a search on the topics I've mentioned to educate yourself on all the details. Keep in mind that low bass frequencies will still escape, so you won't be sound-proof, but it should be better.

[majortom]

If you're living in an apartment, I'm not surprised you're catching flack from the neighbors. Having lived in houses with musicians before and been in a few bands, I'd say the noise level, especially bass, coming from the basement would easily be loud enough to annoy most people on upper levels, so I wouldn't assume your neighbors are irrational.

If you're living in a free standing house, seal up your basement windows and rock on. You could use 2 layers of thick MDF glued together with green glue, some fluffy fiberglass to dampen any resonance, and then the window of course. It worked pretty well for me, but I was trying to keep noise out. Apparently, 2 layers separated by air (referred to as 2 leaves) are better than three when it comes to low frequencies. Check out the John Sayers forum. Lots of expert isolation advice.

Recording Studio Design :: Index

[6strings]

PS. I'm going under the impression the OP owned the home (and it's not an apartment). If either is the case (rented home or apt), don't waste your money on construction. Just seal up the room the best you can as per majortom's advice...

[day-go]

yeah, it is in a home that my friend owns. i think i'll start by sealing the windows and see if that helps the problem. even if it does, we will eventually have to fix the ceiling anyway (his wife doesn't always appreciate the noise). when you say "acoustical panels" for the ceiling, what exactly do you mean? like are we talking the sort of stuff you can get at home depot?

so where could i get ahold of this dense mineral fiber insulation? are there any particular brands to look for, and if not, what type of specs?

thanks everybody for all the help!

[6strings]

Originally Posted by day-go

when you say "acoustical panels" for the ceiling, what exactly do you mean? like are we talking the sort of stuff you can get at home depot?

so where could i get ahold of this dense mineral fiber insulation? are there any particular brands to look for, and if not, what type of specs?

Yeah, Home Depot has acoustical panels for drop ceilings. I got the mineral fiber insulation from a local drywall contractor place. (Home Depot doesn't stock that stuff) It was called "Thermafiber Sound Attenuation Fire Blankets" but there are other brands out there as well.

[redroom]

I think it will be cheaper to Hire a Hitman to do over yoru Neighbours than soundproof.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by day-go

even if it does, we will eventually have to fix the ceiling anyway (his wife doesn't always appreciate the noise)

I recommend total intervention.

then he won't need the soundproofing.

Really, though, I think this place is gonna be more trouble than it's worth. Between the neighbors and the guy's wife, I'd go somewhere else.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by GearGeek

Are you sure about your noise ordinance? Where do you live? That doesn't sound right. That would mean that no one could ever do construction or even gardening on their house because they can be shut down at any time.

If you live in an apartment, you have less freedom because the management can shut you down at any time. But if you live in a house you should be able to make a reasonable amount of noise during the daytime.

But what's a reasonable amount of noise?

For a while in my old 'hood, there was a guy running a commercial woodshop out of a garage he rented in the alley... a couple days of it would have been fine but this went on for many hours a day. (They eventually shut him down without me having to complain.)

I always busted my ass to isolate my old studio (I preferred working in the wee hours so it was really necessary... there were people sleeping within 15 or 20 feet of my exterior wall)...


Noise makes me crazy. For a VERY short time there was an emo band practicing in my new neighborhood (I'm now a renter in a beach neighborhood) and it was utterly excruciating. (Happily, my new neighbors will drop the dime in a drop dead, New York second... they didn't pay their million plus to be assaulted by someone else's kid's noise.)

I'm ALL for good noise ordinances.

What happens in your studio should stay in your studio.

And -- in my old neighborhood -- it could also be a matter of survival. I put in a panic door but studio invasions -- typically with people getting killed for 10 or 15 K worth of gear -- were not at all unheard of in LA in the 90s. I would go so far as having people drive into my alley garage to unload gear through the back yard so the local thugs didn't get a clue on what was what.

[Reptil]

same here, sadly music is an activity of pariahs in this country. if there's any noise or sound ppl. will call the police (even a band loading or unloading is suspicious here), and even when you're within legal requirements, try to explain that to a cop with one alternating (on/off) braincell, who can totally understand "people just want it quiet" or some irrefutable bs like that. Now OTOH a soundproofed AND treated room will make your music sound MUCH better. Why? 2 reasons:
1. you'll have an acoustically correct environment, instead of the "bunker" sound
2. even more important: you'll feel more relaxed, and will be able to concentrate more, instead of your left brain trying to cope constantly with the possiblillity of bs.

After doing that, In case your noise pollution is not significant anymore: DON'T let your neighbours push you around. Try to be reasonable polite and firm. If that doesn't work out, ignore them. Don't get into a fight, and don't argue. There is nothing to argue about. Just walk away. If you don't it will easily develop into a neighbour dispute, and that is something you really don't want. Find out what is the legal requirements and stick to that. Make a clear report of all the measures you have taken, to make it soundproof, in case someone decides to take you to court, or tries to force you out. And make sure they cannot disturb you or ruïn your takes, by ringing the doorbell. (remove it, and invest in some good locks)
Just go with "you'll just have to get used to it, because it's not terrible"
People will try to get their way, and push you as far as they can. Do not expect leniency or understanding. Those are rare commodeties.

All of this might sound weird and over the top to some of you, it is however reality for some of us. A continuous fight for existence in an overpopulated land.

And post your studio makeover of course on GS! We might help (excellent advice above) and your experience might help others.
Practically; invest in good literature/prof. advice, make a floating room (air is an excellent iinsulator), and don't forget a soundproofed airco. (you might need oxigen later)
stike

[theblue1]

Good point about avoiding making an enemy of your neighbors... If the guy next door decides to make you his hobby... it's gonna make BOTH your lives miserable and he's going to make sure he takes it ALL out on you.


Another issue that could be really crucial: is your facility legal?

Noise is one thing.

An illegal business in your home could be a WHOLE 'nother...

Check your local laws. You may need to be EXTRA nice to your neighbors...

[Flying_Dutchman]

Maybe get a pitbull...just kiddin´...nevermind

[theblue1]

My buddy's pit mix rescues make more noise than your average deathgrind band... especially when they hit his front gate running... After you ring his gate bell you brace yourself for the onslaught... telling yourself, they're big teddy bears... and they are... but a 120 pound teddy bear with a jaw big enough to get your head into is still intimidating when it's running at you at 20 miles an hour sounding like all three heads of Cerberus barking at once guarding the gates of hell...

[peeder]

Originally Posted by day-go

yeah, it is in a home that my friend owns. i think i'll start by sealing the windows and see if that helps the problem.

Best of luck getting out in a fire...

[theblue1]

Getting out in an emergency is no joke.

I had to put a fire release on the bars to a back window for just that reason.

During the late 80s and early 90s when SoCal crime was through the roof you couldn't 'get through more than 6 months, seemed like, without reading about some poor family perishing inside their barred up home...

In fact, I saw the fire department cut a hole in an apartment roof to get into an apartment with barred windows... but that's risky, since it ventilates the fire which tends to make it flare up. Happily, the fire was just in the starting out stages, didn't spread, and no one was home -- but it was certainly MANY tens of thousands of damage -- just getting in.

[majortom]

Originally Posted by peeder

Best of luck getting out in a fire...

Good point. You can embed string in the caulk which will make it easier to tear off in case of emergency. Or you could just leave a couple as window plugs, rather than caulking them up. Now that I think about it, these kind of modifications are probably against building code, so if you have a vengeful neighbor they could really stick it to you by reporting you. Please ignore my suggestion :-)

There, now I've covered my a$$. My lawyer will be happy.

[day-go]

well, in the event of fire i assume i would rather walk up the concrete stairs and out the back door

but, hypothetically speaking, how would you place mdf in front of the windows? would you cut it to the size of the window, or cut it larger than the window well?

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by theblue1

But what's a reasonable amount of noise?

I still say if a neighbor bitches about noise in the middle of the day then they shouldn't be mowing their lawn either. Lawn mowers are insanely noisey.

[analog modeling]

f.......ck neighbors.........in my old apartment i d give em hell.....while i was practicing on my mixes (hard techno) they threw the police on me a couple of times ...f...ck emi had to move and sh..t.........anyway on sundays they would put on their salsa....and rancheras...a la old mexicano style ....and noone said nothin.....so i say f...ck em!!! for a while....fuuck

[majortom]

Originally Posted by day-go

well, in the event of fire i assume i would rather walk up the concrete stairs and out the back door

but, hypothetically speaking, how would you place mdf in front of the windows? would you cut it to the size of the window, or cut it larger than the window well?

Hypothetically, in my case the windows were inset about 2 feet, so I built a 1x1 frame around the inside of the hole, about 6 inches from the window, filled the space between the window and the mdf with fluffy fiberglass and then screwed the first sheet of mdf to the frame. I then put a thin bead of caulk around the mdf. This cut out most of the sound (from large trucks) that was getting in my room. Just for kicks I used some green glue and glued up another sheet of mdf that was an 1/8" smaller all around, then caulked that. That took care of all the noise. Didn't take very long or cost too much. The trick is getting a good seal.

It would probably be easier just to cover the windows, than what I did, but it wouldn't look as good and you may have a big airspace that could resonate like a drum if not filled with enough fiberglass. I'm not really sure which is best.

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by Reptil

even when you're within legal requirements, try to explain that to a cop with one alternating (on/off) braincell, who can totally understand "people just want it quiet" or some irrefutable bs like that.
stike

Man that drives me crazy. I had neighbors complaining about my flamenco guitar playing which was barely audible in neighboring apartments. At the same time no one complains about the guy with his leaf blower at 10 times the volume, the guy fixing his motorcycle, or the icecream truck that circles and circles.

I guess that other stuff, people feel they don't have any power over, but the moment they get a chance to pull the plug on someone they do have power over... I can understand if it's late at night, or if it's really loud, but it seems people are immune to the noise in the environment except when it's music, it would be nice if it was the opposite, at least before it gets late at night.

[uncle duncan]

Might be cheaper to get some 5 watt amps turned up to 2, and a quiet drum kit, unless you're in a really big hurry to go deaf. Trust me, at some point in your life, you'll be perfectly happy jamming on 5 watt amps. Might as well start now.

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Might be cheaper to get some 5 watt amps turned up to 2, and a quiet drum kit, unless you're in a really big hurry to go deaf. Trust me, at some point in your life, you'll be perfectly happy jamming on 5 watt amps. Might as well start now.

Depends which 5 watt - I've been shocked, completely shocked by how loud
some of the better ones go! Also, by how great they can sound for a bluesy/rock sound. Mesa Boogie has the Lonestar which can switch from 3 different wattages, I think 50/20/and 5 or 10, but I might be wrong. Man that thing was loud, and sounded great but expensive!

[old_skul]

I ran into this issue (the outraged neighbor) many times as an apartment dweller, and got smart to the issue. When the cops came out, I answered the door, was super nice, invited them in, offered them coffee - and asked about the noise ordinance.

The ordinance in my city (Cincinnati) is in effect after 10PM until sunrise. 80dB at the curb is in violation, and it is required that the citing officers give the offender a warning before citing.

So basically, our band would practice (in the ATTIC! with a PA! in a 2-family house!) until 10PM. Then we'd turn it down some, and play some more, until 11:30 or so. Then, sometimes, the cops'd come out, and we'd have coffee as they delivered their warning. This went on for some time - I lived there for four years.

I have never had a complaint in my house, since I now practice in the basement. I've done some room treatments to keep echoing down, which allows us to turn down the PA a bit. But we also cut it off around 10PM.

Your best approach? Treat your room to make it sound better. Learn the local ordinances. And most importantly, offer your local officers a sit-down in your place, and a cup of coffee.