(newbie) Quality ad/da and average pres, or quality pres and average ad/da

[traynor11]

Hi - my band is trying to improve the sound of our diy home based demos (modern rock). We have been using the ususal suspect home-sumer stuff which consists of pt7 with an maudio firewire 1814 with 2 art tubepacs for a total of 4 active pres ins (two are the stock 1814's). For mics we have a couple 57's/58's and a couple cheap condensers (I think some mxls and an at2020 etc). We cut the drums with 4 mics then overdub everything else. Surprisingly, the results have not been that bad (or not as bad as some other demos I have heard). Mixing is done itb with a set of krks.

We want to invest some money (limited funds) and make things sound better...

Would we be better off upgrading a couple ins of the 1814 with some better AD (possibly DA too) ie mytek stereo 96 or apogee minime/older rosetta, rme adi/2 and using our current pres?

Or, invest in a couple kick arse pres for the stock 1814, like some 7th circles, rnp's, grace, etc (prosumer stuff thats in our price range)?

One last option would be to fleabay everything we have and really stretch to pick up an 002/003 rack and add a couple kick ass pres to that...

Any info would be nice....we use PT so it kind of has to be pt or pt7m based gear for now....

[Jonkan]

You could get the 1814 modded by blacklion audio. They modded my traveler, and it came out great. The conversion is alot better, and the pres are much much better also (pretty damn kickass, but neutral). U could probably expect a similar improvement in the 1814, but you should ask them about it.

Also i definately wouldnt call the 7th circle stuff prosumer. Michael Wagner uses it for gods sake!

Good luck,

J

[jdjustice]

preamps before converters.
it's jmho but believe me, you can tell the difference between a Great River NV and the preamps on just about any interface, and the difference can be astounding.
with low-budget preamps and good converters you will just (perhaps) be more accurately hearing the low-budget preamps.

invest the money into monitors, room treatment, mics or preamps.
that's where the mojo comes from (imo).


cheers.
~j.d.

[MikeMitchell]

I haven't had any experience with the maudio interface, but I've been through a 002, a ff800, lavry blues, a cranesong hedd and benchmarks for conversion. Every time I test converters myself I am severely underwhelmed at the differences. That being said there is a noticeable difference, but not like anything I've experienced in upgraded preamps or microphones. I am 100% convinced that any statement sounding like 'This converter is lightyears beyond this converter' is total bullshit probably coming from someone who doesn't know how to do a proper a\b comparison. I can't tell you how many times I've been to friends studios to test converters out and they wing it with matching levels. Fricken ridiculous. It's amazing these assholes call themselves engineers.

If you have had soldering experience or don't mind taking some time learning the SCA are going to be your best bet, and the most rewarding. They sound top notch and are very cost efficient in kit form. The api 3124 is also a great deal if you can wing it and don't feel like doing the build yourself.

Good luck, sorry for the small rant
Mike

[dkelley]

+1 for jd and mikem's opinions.

and I own and run m-audio delta 1010lts at my home studio. Stock they sound very very good, with outboard clock they sound slightly better, into the amazing territory, but even stock m-audio stuff is plenty good enough for what you want. and the 1814 is a great device.

Cheers,
Don

[jdier]

Since you did not tell us where your current recordings are not sounding good enough, this is a stab in the dark, however, I have gone through 3 audio interfaces and a load of built in and outboard preamps, and personally I think my biggest bang for the buck came with new microphones.

The Beta 52 and the D112 were both huge steps up from what I was using (57.)...

I thought my Oktavas for drum overheads were a big improvement over Beta 57's for drums overheads.

SM7 was a great upgrade for vocals.

My personal opinion is that you could do yourself some good with some better mics...

[dementedchord]

in your basic question of either or... i'ld rather have better pre's... convertors can at the high end make a diff but when you push it with crap you still got crap...

[donsolo]

jittery cheap pres sound like jittery cheap pres

Jittery nice pres sound like jittery nice pres

less jittery cheap pres sound like cheap pres

Less jittery nice pres sound like nice pres.

jitter is like the last 5%, that amount of distortions you won't be able to hear right away, basically, any digital equipment you've used unless you use a lot of high end, is really jittery on the output.

and so in reality, you're used to hearing jitter, it'll be jittery on the output.

Pres on the other hand are going to account for about 20% of your sound, the other 75% is 10% mic, 5% cabling and 60% is in the room and mic placement.

I've heard great results with just SM57s, sure it was good pres but placement and a good room are super-important

[peeder]

Some points from my pov...

- Investing in modding a computer interface is nuts.

- I recommend an RME ADI-2 because it has a high-end headphone output as well as very nice AD and DA. You can afford a high-end set of cans for $300 (e.g. Ultrasone 750, Senn HD600, Beyer 770...the US and Beyer being closed which helps with mic placement), which is cheaper than a high-end set of monitors. You will have to mix on your monitors of course, but with the headphones you can hear the quality of what you're tracking. If you can't hear what you're doing, you are flying absolutely blind and it doesn't matter what quality of gear you have.

- Jitter is a minor factor in converter quality in practice...the filter is a much bigger issue. Jitter is also correctable with the ADI-2. You can clock to the ADI-2 via its output (it lacks word clock, but that's why it's only ~$600 and 1/2 rack and you don't need WC in a small configuration).

- Mics are more important than preamps but preamps are certainly important too.

- Converters matter a very very great deal at the low price range.

So I recommend an ADI-2, the cans of your choice...which totals $1000...then pick out a mic or two now that you can hear well enough to test them...and when you have some more nickels to rub together you can get on the preamp addiction.

[1monkey1]

i would upgrade the converters before upgrading your pre-amps.
one of the previous posters was right, in my opinion.
you should upgrade your clock first.
you don't know what jitter is until it's gone, the smoothness and clarity is very noticeable.
next upgrade the a/ds. i'm constantly amazed that engineers will spend 500-1500 bucks on a pre-amp and send that beautiful rich sound through a 23 cent op amp into the converter. this has never made sense to me. modding gear makes sense.
btw, i think you should think about having black lion mod a box, they replace the clock and the op amps. do you think these guys built a business on smoke and mirrors, they put in parts that should have been put in at the factory.

finally, i think you're should invest your money evenly across the signal chain. that's the trick in recording, especially in the low to mid end. you have fewer resources, but you still have to try to get a good chain of signals all the way to your hard drive. these cheap op amps and poor clocks are an under-discussed bottleneck that degrades audio.

hope this helps,

steven walcott
Engine Studios

[kedbear]

hi,

I recently upgraded from m-audio card and focusrite trak master to fireface 400. You can get some great results from the preamps on the fireface if you know what you're doing and the conversion/clock is very good. You can then upgrade preamps later if needs be to DAV BG1/GRACE etc.

Sufjan Stevens recorded Illinoise with a roland VS-880 and bounced to protools with his 001. He used an audio technica 4033/C1000/MXL V69 for vocals through a altec 1592a (saw one go for $150) recently on ebay.

He mixed the record on headphones.

I always like to remember that when i get gear lust.
If you haven't heard this record, i suggest you check it out.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by kedbear

I recently upgraded from m-audio card and focusrite trak master to fireface 400.

haha, interesting! I recently upgraded from a fireface to a trakmaster pro and m-audio card.

Seriously, exact opposite. I wanted away from the fireface and back to the componentized way of doing things, the way it should be in my opinion. Which is, get the a/d d/a dedicated to your sound card, that's what it specializes in. get an external clock (which I already had, an apogee) if you must have perfect clock, it bugs me when there's jitter, but without exception I've done double blind tests with friends and I'm the only one who gets it right, they either claim no difference or get it randomly wrong or right over repeated tests. so yes, I hear jitter, most people don't (those friends are not engineers though, maybe part of it). so for me the apogee was something I got a long time ago and never looked back, but most people dont' seem to notice the difference.

However having a trackmaster (and an mpa gold and a pair of graces and some good presonus pres and access to unlimited apis and yamaha console pres) gives me what I was looking for - high end (and good lower end) pres, high quality converters (as opposed to esoteric high end -check out the circuit of a delta 1010 sometime), and an unlimited expandable rack of gear that suits my needs for a true studio environment.

For me, modular is vital. if it's all in one it's not useful, I can't open it up and fix it, and if it breaks everything breaks. The sound quality is comparible, although I certainly prefer the trakmaster pro's preamp to most other built in preamps for devices like that, although it's a matter of taste.

I would highly recommend pres and room treatment long before converter upgrades for the person who started this thread though, converters are by far the least audible part of the chain. You can create (and I've done to prove a point) absolutely professional recordings using a soundblaster for the a/d and d/a conversion. As long as there isn't excessive routing into and out of the box through those converters repeatedly then it will never be noticable to anyone if the final result is great. You won't get any of us saying "oh my god, all that work put into it and listen to that jitter!". Seriously, I have to be listening for it specifically and much of it can be masked by the music in typical circumstances.

I'm not trying to disagree with people, only stating my opinion from my own experience. Ideally you should upgrade everything of course :-). But for me, great pres through great mics through a great system with either lousy converters or great converters will still sound great, but it'll just sound 5% greater with the amazing converters than it will with the crappy converters. but amazing converters with average mics, average room, average gear will sound average, 5% better than average is still average.

And most importantly, crappy mics, crappy room, crappy gear and crappy converters will still sound amazing with a great performance, don't ever forget the #1 thing to a great track - the musician(s).

Cheers,
Don

[structuredloud]

I think great condenser mics sound pretty good on cheap input chains, it's when you get good preamps and converters that you realize how good those dynamics and ribbons can sound.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by structuredloud

I think great condenser mics sound pretty good on cheap input chains, it's when you get good preamps and converters that you realize how good those dynamics and ribbons can sound.

that's super true and very observant. something many people forget about, everything starting out thinks condensor condensor condensor, the best way to go. not always, I often prefer other technologies for vocal mics, drums mics and almost always prefer other technologies for guitar amp mics.

[peeder]

Bob Katz clearly argues in his book, Mastering Audio, that you should use INTERNAL CLOCKS whenever possible. page 234 in the Jitter chapter:

I always operate well-designed A/Ds on internal sync for best performance, unless doing video, when they must be locked externally. The A/D should be the master clock in any system when recording, and the D/A the master when playing back.

This is because it's much easier to avoid all the causes of jitter when you have a clock crystal just a few millimeters away from your converter chip as opposed to all the way down an (often unbalanced) cable and into some master clock device. If a converter's internal clock is so poor as to benefit from external synch anyway, the converter's native dynamic range will likely be miserable (you'll see it on the specs) and it's time for a new converter anyway.

Mr. Katz goes over all the reasons why these apocryphal tales of superior clocks and cables can form and why they're wrong. I highly recommend the book.

Quit wasting money.

[kedbear]

haha, interesting! I recently upgraded from a fireface to a trakmaster pro and m-audio card.

Well it just goes to show. I'd bought the fireface because i needed the mobility, i've got a lovely grand piano nearby and wasn't happy to use just a VS-880 with it's pretty old and ropey pre's and conversion. I also don't have a nice clock etc and decided on it over a motu being mac based n all.
I sold my focusrite trak master platinum for $150, maybe i made a mistake? Couldn't tell much difference between it and the pres on a VLZ pro, though they did have a sharper top end, nothing eq couldn't bring to the mackie though.
I remember my m-audio 2496 sounding pretty good! Actually couldn't hear alot of difference in the d/a compared to the fireface.
Now i'm thinking about pres i can't afford - DAV BG1 looks nice... mmm...
I dunno...
And i'm not even in the music business!!!
Too long looking at this damn board

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by peeder

Bob Katz clearly argues in his book, Mastering Audio, that you should use INTERNAL CLOCKS whenever possible.

yes, that's true in theory but it's really more valid in the internal design of a soundcard. it's certainly true if you're just worried about syncing everything together (which is vital with multiple pieces of digital gear talking digitally to each other). I'm not talking about sync here, I'm talking about reducing jitter, and it's quite accepted in studios to use an external clock for the a/d.

I've read the book, it's a vital thing I recommend to all beginners, but his example doesn't suit what we're talking about here. It's also quite well accepted that the only significant (if you can call a difference so small significant) drawback to the delta 1010 is it's crystal, and using an external clock is a proven, tested and well accepted way to improve things. In the high end group this is done often with many many different a/d converters, some of which are already very high end themselves. However we're talking in the low end theory section here, so maybe I should take that into consideration. I have to remember who's reading these posts LoL, big difference in how money is spent for sure between high end and low end.

Cheers,
Don

[peeder]

Originally Posted by dkelley

yes, that's true in theory but it's really more valid in the internal design of a soundcard. it's certainly true if you're just worried about syncing everything together (which is vital with multiple pieces of digital gear talking digitally to each other). I'm not talking about sync here, I'm talking about reducing jitter, and it's quite accepted in studios to use an external clock for the a/d.

I've read the book, it's a vital thing I recommend to all beginners, but his example doesn't suit what we're talking about here. It's also quite well accepted that the only significant (if you can call a difference so small significant) drawback to the delta 1010 is it's crystal, and using an external clock is a proven, tested and well accepted way to improve things. In the high end group this is done often with many many different a/d converters, some of which are already very high end themselves. However we're talking in the low end theory section here, so maybe I should take that into consideration. I have to remember who's reading these posts LoL, big difference in how money is spent for sure between high end and low end.

Cheers,
Don

Much harder, at any point on the price scale, to implement a good PLL than internal clock.

The motivation for external clocks in large studios comes from having to synch numerous pieces of outboard digital equipment for simultaneous operation. It's better in all cases to stay in the box where everything's a jitter-proof state machine to the extent feasible. Smaller studios with simple topologies, using internal synch whenever possible, will likely have better jitter performance than large ones with those fancy Big Bens, because those large studios are overambitious with their outboard spread. Less is more.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by peeder

Much harder, at any point on the price scale, to implement a good PLL than internal clock.

The motivation for external clocks in large studios comes from having to synch numerous pieces of outboard digital equipment for simultaneous operation. It's better in all cases to stay in the box where everything's a jitter-proof state machine to the extent feasible. Smaller studios with simple topologies, using internal synch whenever possible, will likely have better jitter performance than large ones with those fancy Big Bens, because those large studios are overambitious with their outboard spread. Less is more.

, news to me. I'll have to talk about this with the guys I work with, could be an interesting discussion! I won't say that what you're saying is false, but it goes against some of what I've learned in electronics, but I'm certainly not an expert at digital circuits, while I do understand a lot of the programming behind their design, and will venture to say that at least in computers, what you say it completely true.

Cheers,
Don

[MDM]

two words:

Metric Halo

Metric Halo

Done.

get either the ULN2 or the 2882 or both

with the ULN2 you have to amazing preamps built in

and the converters are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH so MUCH better than motu,m-audio and rme - Whatever the other guys say - I have had them all, and these converters do sound better. (metric halo that is)

Oh it only runs on mac.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by MDM

Whatever the other guys say - I have had them all, and these converters do sound better. (metric halo that is)

Oh it only runs on mac.

yes, they do sound better, I agree. the mac thing might be an issue for him, that is an interesting recommendation though. Very good idea actually. And I agree, you can hear clock differences resulting in jitter and other related issues.

I still would like to know why some very experienced engineers have told me and demonstrated to me audibly how a good external clock can fix jitter etc in something like a delta 1010. Completely opposite thing I've been told by the other gentleman here who obviously knows his stuff too. What a fascinating situation...

My choice of the delta 1010 (and recommendation there of) is because I can run m-powered or anything else through it without having to be restricted to a digi-00X (choices that are quite overpriced) or mbox (severely lacking for my needs). It's all a matter of requirements I guess. oh yea, and I need pc compatibility, not that I wouldn't rather run on a mac, but it's not worth it financially for me since I build my own daw and synth pcs for $500 to $600 each that are silent, super fast and have everything just right for my needs, not possible with the mac (price wise that is).

Cheers,
Don

[deuc647]

Personally, i say that the preamp wil make the most noticable results, i use dto have a delta 44 and would record all my things through my mixer a tascam 3700, then i got the rosetta 200, and i did notice the stereo imaging got wider and deeper, things got easier to mix, then i got the hdxr and it made a huge difference, but now i got 8 channels of sebatron pres and everything just has more vibe, its hard to describe, like the music just came to life, its punchy, deep....i dunno its weird, but believe me, nothing can replace a good pre.