Ribbon Shootout

[dasoundjunkie]

I just finished a shootout between a Royer R-121, an AEA R-84 and a Cascade Fat Head II and I can honestly say that I was VERY surprised!
I highly recommend that anyone who wants a Royer or an AEA first rent or borrow them and do a comparison with the Fat Head! I'm probably going to get slammed for saying this but after putting all of them in front of the same amp and comparing them head to head I don't know why anyone would spend a grand or more on these mics when I could match the sound of either mic with very minimal(+/-1 or 2db)EQ. DON'T take my word for it try it yourself!
I'm out

[drBill]

Interesting. Thanks for the post. Got any audio clips?

[AlexLakis]

Which transformer in the Fat Head?

[dasoundjunkie]

Originally Posted by drBill

Interesting. Thanks for the post. Got any audio clips?

I'll gladly send you a cd, I don't like what mp3s do to sound(pm me where to send it)

[dasoundjunkie]

Originally Posted by AlexLakis

Which transformer in the Fat Head?

It was the stock tranny

[ForgottenG]

I just ordered a cheap Apex I believe the 205. I am interested to see how it sounds and if I will need to mod it. I was looking at the fat head too. I would be interested in anyone elses feedback.

[dkelley]

I own an apex 205, shockingly great little mic, my choice mic for lead guitar amp micing (solos only, just my little niche for the mic). Out of the box without mods it works great for that use, at least for my ears.

Picky notes of complaint:
- body has some resonance problems, along with the grille, both should be tamed down some for it to be a more neutral mic (it rings a teeny tiny little bit but so far I haven't heard that picked up in recordings, but since it's audible in the mic I'm certain it would be improved if they were damped. Definitely a do it yourself kind of thing though).
- stock tranny is a speck harsh, but that is being super super picky, it doesn't change the tone of the mic really much at all to replace the tranny, but possibly can just a teeny tiny bit open up the highs.
- like most ribbons, very low output, so I use an art mpa gold with it's huge 75 db clean gain at high plate voltage with this and with all of my ribbons. Just worth mentioning, you don't have to spend $$$$ to get a ribbon mic pre that sounds terrific. however for lead guitar amp micing even my focusrite pre with 50 db of gain or whatever it has still does the job, although I prefer the mpa gold with my ribbons anyway for tone reasons (just a better match).

really important note for anyone curious about these mics - this might sound crazy, and it's purely just my memory here, but when I bought it the high end sounded more muted than it does now after months of regular use. It sounds dramatically better now than when I bought it. So just in the off chance that this isn't my mind playing tricks on me, it might be worth breaking in the mic some before you can expect to get the best out of it. However this might be all in my mind. I will say now thought that it is definitely good enough for lead vocals but when I bought it there wasn't a chance in hell I would have used it for any kind of human voice recording, so something's changed (either me or the mic, pre etc are all the same).

Also another comment - I first bought the apex 210, the mic that's like twice as big as the 205, with the same element. sounds like crap compared to a 205. really obvious and nasty body and grille resonances and rings, absolutely no high end, just a huge project to make that mic sound good IMHO so I traded down to a 205 that sounds miles better for less money. I don't recommend buying the "big" 210 mics (or variations from other companies) of that first generation. I'm certain the new globe dual ribbons from cad etc are far better built though.

apex 205 = highly recommended, I'm buying more when I can.

Don

EDITED: forgot the whole point of the post.... LoL, sorry :-)
used a fathead, loved it, a little smoother than my 205 while remaining very similar in character (which is a good thing). For the price difference I personally would own a box full of fatheads and 205s rather than AEAs etc for my bread and butter micing, while still owning a matched pair of AEAs or coles 4038s (my favorite ribbon mic ever) for really vital source recording. But then I have the situation where I can often use what I want without actually owning it first. For the gear I own, it's 205s only (just so dang cheap and great sounding!).

Cheers

Originally Posted by ForgottenG

I just ordered a cheap Apex I believe the 205. I am interested to see how it sounds and if I will need to mod it. I was looking at the fat head too. I would be interested in anyone elses feedback.

[lpkyer]

I modded the apex 205 and its crazy good...

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by dkelley

I first bought the apex 210, the mic that's like twice as big as the 205, with the same element. sounds like crap compared to a 205. really obvious and nasty body and grille resonances and rings, absolutely no high end, just a huge project to make that mic sound good IMHO so I traded down to a 205 that sounds miles better for less money.

One of the big problems with any of the Chinese import microphones is consistency. So while your 205 may be much better than the 210 that you tried, that may not be the case at all for other instances of the same mics. One of the common issues with these mics is ribbons that are improperly tensioned. That could certainly be the cause of the problems that you heard in the 210.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

One of the big problems with any of the Chinese import microphones is consistency. So while your 205 may be much better than the 210 that you tried, that may not be the case at all for other instances of the same mics. One of the common issues with these mics is ribbons that are improperly tensioned. That could certainly be the cause of the problems that you heard in the 210.

I tested 3 210s and 2 205s in the same store with a very helpful store owner I've known for decades and it was clear that the 210s all had really obvious body resonances and were lacking in highs compared to the 205s, even with slightly different sound between each of the mics tested (due to that famous QA we all know about from China) but the problems were clearly not the ribbon, they were due to the 210 having very visibly more closed grills (couldn't see through it nearly as easily) compared to the visibly much more open 205 grill, and also due to the larger body offering more ring and resonance at a lower frequency and with less damping than the simply smaller design of the 205's body allowed.

Just a fluke probably, although there definitely were improvements in the grille of the 205s compared to the 210s.

This was some months ago, man, maybe hale a year ago even.

Oh yes, and just a note for those curious - the 205s and 210s and probably many other cheap ribbons tend to sound quite different on the front and the back of the mic, worth playing with that to see what sounds best on each source.

Cheers,
Don

[ForgottenG]

Thanks Don & Lou I can't wait to see what I got and how it works. I would still like to get my hands on the fat head. A word in general about Cheap mics. They are a great thing I would rather have a couple different Cheaper mics that sound great but a little different Than one mic that sounds Amazing and is 75% of the budget of my studio. Again it all comes down to listening. As engineers we need to learn to listen and not go on what someone else says sounds good. If you listen to a $2000 mic and a $200 mic and do not hear $1800 difference WAIT until you do, then buy it. The very practice of getting the best out of that $200 mic is what we need don't walk before you crawl. I have heard Crappy recordings done on expensive equipment. I know, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. It's just my 2cents worth, or $1800

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by ForgottenG

I have heard Crappy recordings done on expensive equipment. I know, I know, I'm preaching to the choir. It's just my 2cents worth, or $1800

no problem, and well said! I still prefer the coles 4038 to almost anything in existence, but you can't buy them at long and mcquade.... my local pro audio/consumer audio store. are they worth $2000 more per mic than an apex 205? well, if I have $10,000 to spend then yes. if I have a more realistic $1000 to spend, then no way. However I'm lucky in that I buy my own gear for my own studio out of my own pocket and am limited there but treat it like I treated recording in the early 80s, you get the most from the basic stuff you can afford. The lucky part is that I work in pro studios where I can continue to use the best of the best gear ever made, so I have my ears well tuned to the sound my clients like and am continually searching for el cheapo ways of emulating that sound with my own gear. Hence, apex 205s, peavey 520TLs, art mpa gold, drawmer dl series, dbx 900 series, stuff like that which isn't expensive but does the job as well as much of the high end gear I use daily if you learn you craft well.

Cheers,
Don

[drBill]

I had Michael Joly of oktavamod mod my 205. It sound wonderful and has the Lundhal (sp?) transformer in it with the acoustic mods to remove the excess layers and ringing of the mic body as well. I don't have any coles at my studio to compare it to, but Michael does and he personally likes the modded 205's better. He's supposed to have some audio samples of modded 205's vs. 4038's up soon.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by drBill

I had Michael Joly of oktavamod mod my 205. It sound wonderful and has the Lundhal (sp?) transformer in it with the acoustic mods to remove the excess layers and ringing of the mic body as well. I don't have any coles at my studio to compare it to, but Michael does and he personally likes the modded 205's better. He's supposed to have some audio samples of modded 205's vs. 4038's up soon.

NICE! I've heard good things about his mods, whether it's preferrable to a coles is probably source dependent, but just removing the ringing and phase problems from the grille etc and improving the tranny (which I know isn't very good) must go a long way to improving the subtleties of the mic.

Cheers,
Don

[mcsmitty]

Originally Posted by dkelley

no problem, and well said! I still prefer the coles 4038 to almost anything in existence, but you can't buy them at long and mcquade.... my local pro audio/consumer audio store. are they worth $2000 more per mic than an apex 205? well, if I have $10,000 to spend then yes. if I have a more realistic $1000 to spend, then no way. However I'm lucky in that I buy my own gear for my own studio out of my own pocket and am limited there but treat it like I treated recording in the early 80s, you get the most from the basic stuff you can afford. The lucky part is that I work in pro studios where I can continue to use the best of the best gear ever made, so I have my ears well tuned to the sound my clients like and am continually searching for el cheapo ways of emulating that sound with my own gear. Hence, apex 205s, peavey 520TLs, art mpa gold, drawmer dl series, dbx 900 series, stuff like that which isn't expensive but does the job as well as much of the high end gear I use daily if you learn you craft well.

Cheers,
Don

i think that's one of the most practical and well-reasoned things i've ever seen posted on this or other message boards.

thanks, don. there's plenty of hype floating around, so it's good to read something like that.

[Nosound]

Cool to know I just bought a Apex 205 brand new along with a GT Brick was hoping this might be a good match to record guitar amps along with a SM57 and a Sens e609 for two amp cabs and I would throw the 205 and GT Brick as a room mic to capture both amps and then use my RNP on the close mics SM57 & e609

[krs]

I just picked up an Apex 205.

How do I remove the inner screen? I had it apart and couldn't seem to get anywhere getting it out.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Nosound

Cool to know I just bought a Apex 205 brand new along with a GT Brick was hoping this might be a good match to record guitar amps along with a SM57 and a Sens e609 for two amp cabs and I would throw the 205 and GT Brick as a room mic to capture both amps and then use my RNP on the close mics SM57 & e609

I'd put the 205 right up on the grill with the 57. Huge sound. And very different - yet complementary - to the 57.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by krs

I just picked up an Apex 205.

How do I remove the inner screen? I had it apart and couldn't seem to get anywhere getting it out.

haven't tried personally, but I've read somewhere that you have to go nuts with a pair of wire cutters, some muscle, and a hellofalot of patience.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by mcsmitty

i think that's one of the most practical and well-reasoned things i've ever seen posted on this or other message boards.

thanks, don. there's plenty of hype floating around, so it's good to read something like that.

Wow, that's possibly the nicest thing anybody's ever written about me on this board. LoL, probably because many of my posts come across as a bit controversial... Thanks for the kudos and I'll watch for your posts in the future to say hi. :-)

Cheers,
Don

[lpkyer]

Originally Posted by krs

I just picked up an Apex 205.

How do I remove the inner screen? I had it apart and couldn't seem to get anywhere getting it out.

You need to pull it on with any tool that fits the job

[borism]

call Oktavamod and ask Michael to mod it for you, you'll not regret it, with new transformer and grill, great enhancement!
The low end extention on the 205 after the mod is unreal, and the oposite side of the mic became realy nice..
My 2 cents
Cheers
Boris

[drBill]

I agree about the low end with Boris. I used the mic as a mono room mic the other day for the first time. About 5 feet off the floor 8 feet in front of the kit. Unbelieveable bottom.

[Lay in Wait]

Just used my new 205 with a 57 on a Framus Cobra head and Cab. 57 was run through a joe meek 6Q, 205 through my Toft Audio ATC2. The tone was incredible with a touch of Uad Neve 1073. (not gonna go into mic placements etc) my typing sucks

Im waiting to mod this mic(205) after Im done with the guys Im workin with. I havent even had a chance to open it up and have a look yet. Any more tips for this mic would be cool.

This thread has been a good read.