what I should buy next to set up a home studio?

[shinyd]

hello, sorry for my english.. I'm seeking help to know what I should buy next to complete my home studio, at least to make it decent to record some demos. I've already got some gear and an idea to what to get next but I feel I need some advice on focusing of what's more important and really worth investing my veeeery limited money! I'm a bassist and I'm willing to record some demos for my group and then, after a period of practice on recording and mixing, record very cheap demos for the bunch of young bands that want their first decent demo at a decent price.. I'm not looking for pro gear to do pro recordings, so I guess I'm in the right section of the forum :)

I've got a good sized room, about 5x3,50 meters, - yes, I know I should focus on sound treatement, I've partially done it but that's another story - please tell me what I really should look for with the next 2500/3000$ to record, mix and master some tracks.. I don't love digital plugins so, if my budget would permit it, I'd try to do the most part of process with external effects..

This is what I've got (90% got used on Ebay):

- PC with WinXP Pentium 3ghz 1024 RAM, Cubase SX 3 and various plugins and other programs
- Sound card: Terratec Phase 88 8 ins + digital, 8 outs (yes I know it's a cheap sound card but was the cheapest decent sound card with 8 ins..)
- Mixer Soundcraft Spirit Folio SX with 20 ins - got it because was a bargain on Ebay, the cheapest mixer with direct outs I could get other than Behringer (maybe)..
- Mics: Here's a weak part.. 1 SM 57, 2x AKG C1000, 1 horrible CAD for the kick, stop.. I've just got the C1000s (again, a bargain on Ebay) for their versatility.. I'd use it as overheads manily, but also for acoustic guitars. I'll get a D112 for the kick (and throw the CAD out of the window) so I'll get the drum miking done (in the basic formula 2 OH + snare + kick).. something tells me I need a decent voice mic.. dynamic, SM58? or I can use a C1000? then.. at least another SM57? what other to have a minimum park of mics?
- Monitors: Here's the weakest part.. I've got no real monitors.. I use my Tecnichs Hi-fi stereo amp (old and good) with Technics 50w 2way speakers. I know if I want to do real mixing I should get real monitors, but is monitoring with a Hi-fi system a blasphemy? anyway, I was looking for Tascam VL-X5 or ESI. What else I should look? I read every now and then to invest a big portion of the budget in monitors..
- Loudspeakers: a single 200w bi-amped one to monitor the voice when I play with my band.. I should upgrade to a pair better speakers.. advices?
- Amps: no problems here.. Eden WT800 and Ampeg SVT-3 with their cabinets for bass and Fender Twin amp for guitar.. maybe a second amp for guitar is worth thinking..
- Rack stuff: here too I need help.. I've got a DBX 1066 stereo compressor/expander/noise gate, a digital multifx TC Electronic M300, an old Yamaha E1010 delay/echo/reverb unit.. stop. No Eq at all, no other reverbs, no external preamps other than the ones on my Soundcraft.. advices? at least I was thinking in another stereo compressor to do the drums, maybe a single unit like the DBX 256a as a voice preamp, eq and compressor.. is this the right direction?
- What else? AKG K141 headphones, a bunch of stomp boxes for basic fx (all good quality), rack stand, cables & accessories..

So, what you think I should get/upgrade next?

[Janesaid2me]

These questions are so hard...but it seems you have a good chunk of change to spend...with that money you could buy 1 really super professional item or a load of medium quality stuff (which is what you seem to want and thats cool!) I say start with some monitors...check out some used Event ASP8 or maybe new Yamaha HS80M...thats if u want 8 inch woofer...Then I say 1 nice preamp...dual channel would be great...check out a FMR RNP, Joe Meek TwinQ, possibly a Sytek (4channels-great for drums), GT Brick...just some options there...then id go with some more mics...for vocals get a nice LDC...I use a CAD m9 tube mic works nice...there is better...there is worse...maybe shoot for something in the 500 dollar range...depends on the style of music u mainly record....i think with all those things ud be running about 1500-2000...good start...im sure others will chip in better advice...but what the heck there ya go!

[Jamoson]

I do not think it is blasphemy to use your Hi Fi Speakers, provideing you Know what they sound like. If you are familiar with your speakers and listen to your favorite albums and you get your music to sound like your favorite albums then you are on the right track. Teach yourself to listen. Once you learn to listen better, it will be time for new monitors. I would invest in a DIGI002 Rack. With that and everything you have, you can easily make decent Demos.

[woomanmoomin]

There's some truth in that, but most hi-fi speakers are basically designed to gloss over a lot of the mistakes you're likely to make out using monitors. Whether or not that's important is a matter of taste. My own preference would be to make the music using reasonable monitors and then play it on a whole lot of other systems, cheap and not so cheap, to be sure.

[Ashofapheonix]

>There's some truth in that, but most hi-fi speakers are basically designed to gloss over a lot of the mistakes you're likely to make out using monitors

Hi-fi speaker is a marketing term, as is studio monitor. there a lot of good speakers that were hi-fi speakers before they ever had the word studio and monitor associated with them. Example B&W is geared exclusiveley for home theater and audio-philes, there stuff seems to be quite usable for mixing especially 600 series and up. Wharfedale Diamond 8s are another one. Studio Monitor in lowend gear is associated with nearfields, from what most professionals I've spoken to have told me 15 years ago there wasn't such a thing. Bose is also considered hi-fi but I'm fairly sure the guys who purchase B & W don't consider Bose such...

However in this guys case, its hard to say where that speaker stands.
I agree with the above poster a good set of nearfields should be the first thing you should purchase after treating your room. You can compensate for a lack of tracking equipment, if you can hear what your doing, its a lot harder to compensate for the things you aren't hearing. For starter monitors Wharfedale Diamond 8.2a's are ones worth looking at for 340$, for. IF your in Europe the cost is similair to the states cost. If you don't mind working with a smaller monitor another good Actve monitor for about 500$ is the KRK V4. If your european Tannoy Reveal 5A actives are quite good and quite affordable.

The rest of your gear, maybe a nice set of plugins since your on pc. Voxengo's EQs, and Compressors are excellent, albiet I have heard from users they can be a bit unintuitive some of the plugins do not have hardware equivalents, which can be a bad thing if your coming from an old school analog back ground, you have to learn to use them. However, their supposedley excellent other wise. They have to be bought direct, are pc only and they discount the more you buy. The Mixing+Mastering+Convolution suite is 550$. A good investment for those of use who can't afford UAD.

[shinyd]

thanks for the advices!
apart from monitors, which I'll sure surely buy as the first thing, I was asking myself if I should invest the majority (or totality!) of the money in a very expensive and professional firewire interface or buy a 'load of medium stuff', like someone said.. that's the focal point - I don't know how far would take me my cheap Terratec audio card, even with the most expensive mics and preamps... The second option is tempting because I could afford buying equipment on wich I can experiment and make practice, and buy another one or two mics that I'll surely need.. and I can possibly buy all external equipment to avoid using plugins for the majority of the process, and that would be good for me
But surely the first option is wiser, because the audio interface it's easily the single most important piece of hardware for recording.. in that case, would all of you recommend me the Digi 002 and go with Protools? what about a Motu 896 and keep using Cubase? I don't really know much about..

[Janesaid2me]

I got a MOTU 896...its not a terrible unit although it takes alot of heat sometimes on here...its and OVERALL nice unit...the preamps are mehhh not great...the conversion is mehhh ok...but as on overall box it has ALOT of nice features...like: 8pres, digital in and outs, phantom power for each channel switch on front, nice meters...few other tricks im sure i missed...it was my first unit for a DAW studio...im looking to upgrade now...ive recently got better preamps...so ive been bypassing the motu in that aspect except when i do drums....im considering an Echo Audiofire12 (ive read alot of good stuff on it) as a converter...and a mixing board to add alot of pres (again for drums mostly) and then using my good pres most of the time. Hence getting rid of the motu 896 but for the past ummm 2+ years its been an excellent first unit for me. Just my thoughts for u....

[donsolo]

basically if you want to do a band, you'll need to consider one thing when it comes to these interfaces...lack of inputs.

The Digi 002 has OK pres but 4 of em and I think 4 more line level (you'll need pres)
the 896 I have no idea but I know I avoid my pres on my 828mkII.

For a band, with a 4 Mic drum kit...you'll probably want to track more than one thing at a time.

you can take an interface that has 8x8 and ADAT optical Lightpipe and add something like a Behringer ADA8000, I don't think they sound any worse than Digi's pres or the 828.

As for the external effects, I think you're kinda lying to yourself. Plugins are a better idea because you can use multiple instances of the same plug. One outboard, that's all you got.

My vote is keep Cubase and save the $$$, PTLE and Cubase SX3 is about even in terms of features from my experience. There really isn't a big upgrade there.

You want to be able to use 8ins, that's important, that gives you 4 drums, 2 guitars, a bass and a scratch vocal all live in the room, you're going to encounter (especially in young bands) that not everyone plays to a click and that's going to cause editing issues. Getting good basic tracks and overdubbing against that is going to help.

Now, I have been known to use 18 channels at a time myself. I think it comes down to if you have it, you'll use it.

I also vote one fantastic vocal mic in the 500-700 range, an affordable set of monitors, a decent interface, used 828mkII (make sure it's not the blue one) and maybe add 3 audix i5s or Shure SM57s.

But you're going to find that you do need a decent mic, I've been using the SM7B and it's badass. that's under 500, but for those chick singers, I have to use an NTK or 414.

I think in the end, you should get what you need right now but make sure to invest, more money will come, buy more later. You don't want to buy things that are useless later, the upgrade cost sucks.

[Ashofapheonix]

Theres been some nice talk about the firestudio, and I've used the firepod and it was a nice unit for the price.

Your budget won't get you far in terms of pro gear. And really the differences in budget gear isn't worth worrying about. A good engineer will get about the same results from a Yamaha MG12 mixer or a Mackie Onyx ( and yes I've owned both). I've never used Terratec but if they can hold their own against M-Audio, Motu, and it has the channels you need don't worry about it. Your better off spending money on monitoring treatment, and a decent preamp, FMR RNP or Grace 101, True Systems P-Solo, the stuff that would have the gain to properly use Dynamic microphones. That'd set you back 500$.I've heard the RNP a couple of times, but don't have a lot of comparisons to it an ISA428 and the like. The RNP is 2 channels similair in quality to the latter 2 which are one channels, at 475$ its a pretty good buy. The other thing that you need to understand is signal chain. When your working from a budget perspective upgrading certain things will get you closer to pro sounds than other things. Yes their all important, but if you can't afford to replace it all at once, theirs certain things thatll get you closer to that pro sound then others.

for example with home studio tracking chains, if the person has a 1/2 decent interface 1/2 decent means M-Audio's stuff as the starting point, and has the channels they need for analog I/O or the potential to add more VIA digital if needed, I'd look into a Mic preamp first since thats a big limiting factor for home studios, the budget mixer/interface preamps can't usually really take advantage of microphones. Sure their usable, but their a compromise. Then I'd worry about dynamics processing, if you can't afford the money for good hardware dynamics (usually 1000$ and above category) the best software would do a better job. Then the convertors last...

Monitoring chain, if the person has a usable set of monitors, treatments the first thing i'd worry about, then good set of headphones, and last convertors. Keep in mind your sound card is essentially an AD/DA convertor. So my assumption when I say convertors last is you already have decent AD/DA.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Ashofapheonix

Studio Monitor in lowend gear is associated with nearfields, from what most professionals I've spoken to have told me 15 years ago there wasn't such a thing.

Just a note: 18 years ago I mixed an album with a set of NS-10s and ev 100s, both near field (especially the ns-10s). They were both very established near field monitors in the industry. But maybe I mis-understood what you meant by your comment above saying that 15 years ago there wasn't such a thing as a near field monitor?

Cheers,
Don

[dkelley]

ok, so on topic: here's my recommendation, but you'll have to put some work into learning the gear before making recordings (lots of info online to help you out all over the place).

note: I'd stick with your 8 in 8 out interface for now, it'll make a smaller difference in sound than everything else in your chain to get started with. also I think stick with your speakers for now for mixing, but again, just one man's opinion. keep $500 ready though for cheap monitors and a better used sound card (delta 1010lt maybe or for more cash something nicer yet) a couple months down the road if you ever feel the need. You'll know if you need it, you might not need to upgrade though if you get the sound you want with your current stuff.

so on with my suggestions:

- monitors, that topic's covered. however I think mixing on your hifi speakers is just fine, you'll need to get better mics, pres, etc before you have the quality of source material to bother with spending money on monitors, but having said that you are ready to spend some good cash so it's best to get them at the same time. so get some monitors. yorkville ysm-1s are good for finding problemsin a mix, they sound ok (quite present upper mids though, a little harsh, not ideal for mixing really, but youcan learn them), sort of like ns-10s. cheap for a pair of powered ones, so recommended. or events, or krks, lots of good powered cheap options there, esp. used.

MICS
- 1 vocal LDC, such as cad m179 or cad m9 (cad makes great mics, just use the appropriate mic and quality level for your desired use), AT3060 or 4047 or 4060, tons of options here again do your research first, shure ksms are nice too, adks, whatever (but don't spend TOO much on it since they're very individual things to choose for each person's voice, buy something less expensive but still really good like a cad and learn to use it to it's best, might be all you ever need, or you then start your search for the LDC holy grail).
- 2 SDC, stick with your c1000s for now, but if you ever choose to change them out, there are lots of options here but a matched pair without too much sharp high end is ideal. no specific recommendations here, lots of good options, read u on that in another topic. octavas, certain mxls (also some mxls to avoid), there are many more inexpensive but very useful options.
- a box of 57s, i5s, 609s, om2s, couple of 58s. up to you, a couple of each is useful (of the list I mentioned), or go all 57s if you want, I personally have a mix that I prefer to use (and you get to learn about more mics as a nice result, not to mention more colors of purple to use).
- a handful of cheap LDCs (might as well go chinese for these if you follow my usage suggestion) - great for close tom micing, no worries about losing them or getting them destroyed by keith moon types. I recommended apex 435s, 430s, behringer b2s (yes berrys for toms), etc. those 1 inch diaphrams sound great and you dont' need to worry about the high end peaks, just roll off the highs in the mix or prestrip or whatever you use so that you don't have cymbal leakage during mixdown. I'd get 3 or 4, they're cheap cheap cheap (like $60 new if you shop around). can also be useful on guitar amps etc as a different flavour.
- kick mic - 112, pvm 520, shure beta 5whatevernumberitis, or if you still have the cash (at end of whole bill total) get an re20 for it cuz it's great for vocals, amps, instruments as well (not just kick).

pres:
- I'd get a cheap mixer that has lots of mic pres and direct outs and inserts. voila, instant cheapo band instrument mic pres, should get at least 12 or so out of that if you get a big enough used mixer off ebay or whatever. best deal on useful pres plus headphone mix creator plus learning tool that you can get.
- nice mic pre or pre strip, up to you, I don't find strips useful since I don't track with those fx normally, but sometimes a little comp on vocal tracking is nice, your choice. but dmp3 is nice, grace 101 is better but way more and only subtly better until you have an otherwise pristine recording chain. Lots of other used pres that are better deals and still great though, look em up on this forum. However all being equal I'd also get a pre with really high gain like an ART MPA gold, dual insanely high gain pre with low noise and real tube gain stage (high plate voltage), I own one and love it and use it professionally. Just a thought though, one man's opinion. Nice to have high gain when you need it for lots of low output mics and certain recording situations. but you definitely will need one or two channels of nice quality mic pre.
- many mic stands, like a dozen for a band, most with booms, cheap is ok to get started, but one solid one for vocal mic is nice since big condensors can get heavy.
- a box of like 20 or more good xlr cables.
- lots of 1/4" patch cables, 20 or more, good quality and some 6 feet some 10 some 20, depends on your use, but expect to use many more than you plan to use at first.
- power strips, you choose, just get lots of clean power, separate it from your amp power strips if possible
- you can go in the box for everything else ifyou need to to start out, works fine if your computer can handle it....

rack gear:
... but if your pc can't handle it or you want zero latency for certain thigns then there are great recommendations in the "with a cheapness" metas in this forum.

- lots of room treatment, can be blankets on the walls to get started for free, up to you, or buy/build inexpensive fiberglass or rockwool panels and traps (sounds worse than it is here, sounds better than you expect in real life).

- finally you need lots of closed ear (and preferrably isolating types) headphones for tracking with, every member of the band needs a set of cans, and you need really long cords on each set. you also need lots of headphone amp power, so get a behringer headphone distribution amp or a used something better from ebay, but it needs juice since your room noise will be loud and cans have to go louder for drum and guitar players specifically.

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This is all just my early morning rambling, I hope it's helpful, it's how I'd start building a recording studio with very little cash and the goal of making great USEFUL recordings of rock bands in real time with all of the basics covered so it gives the impression of being professional and also results in good sounding tracks, and hopefully good sounding mixes. if I got off track on this cuz I'm tired then please kindly disregard any garbage I wrote here. I can't sleep, so thought I'd post. maybe a bad idea?? hopefully this is helpful to you or someone. totally just my humble opinion, many will really disagree with my recommendations, but for me it worked great to get started that way and honestly if you learn your gear you can do professional sounding releasable stuff with this setup (assuming the musical and engineer talent exists in the first place).

cheers,
Don