Choir Mic

moezart · 20th March 2007

Hello to All....

I need advise on a MIC to buy.. I am about to record a small choir (about 12 people) and I need an in-expensive MIC. I will be recording in my studio and my vocal booth is approx. 8 x 9. I was planning on recording them in sections.(Tenor, Alto...etc..) Right now I am using the TLM 103 Mic and the Avalon 737 Pre.. I don't think that spliting the choir up in section and using the Nuemann will give me the sound that I need. In any case, I am open to suggestions and recommendations.

Thanks,
Moe

Out House Studio's / End Result Ent.
www.EndResultEnt.com
www.myspace.com/moezartmusic
www.myspace.com/theERroom

AlexLakis · 20th March 2007

You're gonna record an entire choir in an 8x9 vocal booth?

Most of a good choir sound will come from the room. Can you setup in a local church for an hour or so?

If you insist on doing it in the space you have, I wouldn't bother micing the individual "sections," as they will be too small and close anyways. Use a stereo mic or a stereo pair, ORTF or X/Y should be good.

As far as mics, I know I'll probably get flamed for this, and there are probably better options, but on the cheap, I've had a lot of success with a pair of AKG C1000s recording choirs in the past.

moezart · 20th March 2007

Alex,

Thanks for the reply... I'm really not so much looking for the sound that a choir has but the ability to hear all of the voices. And I was keeping in mind my room size so that's why breaking the people up would definately be most feasible option. In any case, I will take a listen to the AKG's.

Thanks again for your feed back neighbor (Odenton, MD here...

)

Moe!

Windtaken · 20th March 2007

If you're looking for more individual voices in the choir, you might want to try stereo miking. But to hear 12 individual voices themselves...that would be quite a feat. Perhaps it would be best to rent another tlm103 and 737 for the day of the recording. Then try a variety of stereo recording methods.

I hope that your clients aren't asking to be able to hear each person equally...If that is the case, I doubt they will ever be happy with your recording. A choir, to me, is one unit, not many units. It may end up like 12 solo guitarists trying to hear themselves during the same passage.

tINY · 20th March 2007

You have to ask yourself if you are mic'n a choir, or 12 vocals...

Sounds like 12 vocals.

So, track them individually........ If you already have a TLM-103, then buy a SM-7 or an RE-20.

-tINY

moezart · 20th March 2007

Thank you to all that have commented...

Unfortunately, Mic'ng 12 indivisuals will be very timely. My whole vision was to just get a nice sound on 3 groups of 4 and then blend the harmonies together. They have 4 Tenors, 4 Alto's and 4 Saprano's. With a good Mic or 2, I could eliminate the tracking of 12 different voices. Which would ultimately cut down on studio cost and time. If it is needed, I can track 1 at a time but I'm sure it can be done effectively with a good mic.

Thanks again for the input......

tINY · 20th March 2007

You really should have the whole ensemble sing at the same time then....

You may need to do a location recording in a decent sized room though.

breaking them up like that and trying to get a good blend after the fact is going to be hard if you want it to sound like a decent choir.

-tINY

AlexLakis · 20th March 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by moezart

Thank you to all that have commented...

Unfortunately, Mic'ng 12 indivisuals will be very timely. My whole vision was to just get a nice sound on 3 groups of 4 and then blend the harmonies together. They have 4 Tenors, 4 Alto's and 4 Saprano's. With a good Mic or 2, I could eliminate the tracking of 12 different voices. Which would ultimately cut down on studio cost and time. If it is needed, I can track 1 at a time but I'm sure it can be done effectively with a good mic.

Thanks again for the input......

Ah, now I see what you're saying.

To be honest, it will probably be very difficult an unnatural for the choir to be recorded that way. There's a lot of synergy that happens when you sing in a choir (I've sung in quite a few,) and it would just feel wrong. I guarantee you the performance will suffer. It'd be kinda like asking a drummer to play each drum individually on different passes of the same part.

I fear for the altos...

Is there really no other place you can record the choir?

warhead · 21st March 2007

Don't ask them to alternate at all (or as little as possible) from the way they are normally used to performing. If you're trying to make it sound bigger, do multiple passes and you could experiment with moving the mics around during different takes and maybe having them switch positions to fill out and balance out the stereo spread in the mix.

The 8x9 room I would definitely get away from if you're trying to make it sound like a choir in a big room. That early reflection is going to be strong and no amount of processing will make that sound go away. I don't even think you could fit 12 people in a room that small...!

War

minus-sounds.com · 21st March 2007

Hi there. This is my first post in GS!

The studio that I work has a lovely live room that is 9x18 meters and 5 meters high. The choir was about 40 or 45 singers. It was the first big project at the room so I was experimenting a bit. I have contributed greatly in choosing the equipment.

The Choir has been positioned
left to right:
Sopranos Tenors Basses Altos

The material was folklore songs of Cyprus and the studio is in Athens, Greece.
I did set up 3 four channel stems with a variety of microphones.

1) Tube mics setup
Neumann M149 (cardioid) on sopranos
Rode NTK on tenors
Rode NTK on basses
Neumann M149 (cardioid) on altos
All at about 3,5 meters high facing about 45o down

2) Ribbon mics setup
four Beyer M160
Those were at about 2,2 meters and closer, to compensate for the low output of the ribbons.

3) One point Blumlein setup
Line Audio QM12i
Also at about 2,2 meters but a little behind the tube set.

On one song there was some tenor solo and I have added as spot mic my Blue Baby Bottle.

All sets were going into the two 8channel Millenia Media HV-3D. The second of those has the DC option and the ribbons were going into those inputs.
I am a big slut.

I got also in the studio a couple of Origins, 737s, DMCLs, a Yamaha DM2000 as digital routerfuuck and other slutty things that were not been used for that recording.
The outputs of the HV-3Ds then went into the RME ADI-8 DS (I got 3 of those) to a Digiface to a Cardbus to my laptop, IBM T41 (5400rpm built in disk) recording in Cubase SX (if that matters) at 44.1/24bit.

We were recording for about a week or little more for about 3 to 4 hours each time. Then the singers were tired, and they went out of tune slightly and that was not allowed.

Results
No EQ, no compression, no artificial reverb. Just the raw full dynamics of the very well trained choir.
The ribbons were gentle but rather low on the output. Very dry roomwise dough to they pattern. The Millenias were pumping all the way and still they were low on the output. Maybe in the future I will bring that Millenia in the live room so that I will have the shortest possible cable runs.
The tubes had definition in all the spectrum. The symmetrical positioning was aiming for stereo imaging and room sound too. The NTKs were nice but they could not keep out with the M149s. Maybe the M149 is the best mic in production.

The quad cartridge Line Audio is my secret weapon. The Blumlein output was phenomenal. The stereo image was extending beyond the physical position of the speakers. The depth was true 3D. A little hyped the whole 3D stereo experience but very very flattering. Instant smiles from the director and some of the singers that cared to have a listen in the control room. Total winner.

My advise.
Get the www.lineaudio.se QM12i which is about $800 (this is the low end

) and you need four channels of mic pre and a phase reverse on the two back outputs of the mic. Or go up market, to a couple of figure8 mics like the Coles ribbons or the stereo Royer and to channels of mic pres. You need to capture the room with a choir. It just sticks everything together, in a good way.
Put them to sing all together, if you can stuff them in there or go to a local church, as it has been mentioned earlier. Individual singing it may be controllable but it totally destroys the feeling of the performance.
Good luck.

20th March 2007	#1
moezart Gear interested Joined: Jul 2006 Location: Odenton, MD Posts: 4 Thread Starter	Choir Mic Hello to All.... I need advise on a MIC to buy.. I am about to record a small choir (about 12 people) and I need an in-expensive MIC. I will be recording in my studio and my vocal booth is approx. 8 x 9. I was planning on recording them in sections.(Tenor, Alto...etc..) Right now I am using the TLM 103 Mic and the Avalon 737 Pre.. I don't think that spliting the choir up in section and using the Nuemann will give me the sound that I need. In any case, I am open to suggestions and recommendations. Thanks, Moe Out House Studio's / End Result Ent. www.EndResultEnt.com www.myspace.com/moezartmusic www.myspace.com/theERroom

20th March 2007	#4
Windtaken Gear maniac Joined: Oct 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 263	If you're looking for more individual voices in the choir, you might want to try stereo miking. But to hear 12 individual voices themselves...that would be quite a feat. Perhaps it would be best to rent another tlm103 and 737 for the day of the recording. Then try a variety of stereo recording methods. I hope that your clients aren't asking to be able to hear each person equally...If that is the case, I doubt they will ever be happy with your recording. A choir, to me, is one unit, not many units. It may end up like 12 solo guitarists trying to hear themselves during the same passage. __________________ Simon

21st March 2007	#9
warhead Jai guru deva om Joined: Feb 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 12,253	Don't ask them to alternate at all (or as little as possible) from the way they are normally used to performing. If you're trying to make it sound bigger, do multiple passes and you could experiment with moving the mics around during different takes and maybe having them switch positions to fill out and balance out the stereo spread in the mix. The 8x9 room I would definitely get away from if you're trying to make it sound like a choir in a big room. That early reflection is going to be strong and no amount of processing will make that sound go away. I don't even think you could fit 12 people in a room that small...! War __________________ Warren Dent, Owner - ZenPro Audio: Gear Now & Zen

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20th March 2007	#2
AlexLakis Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2005 Location: Annapolis, MD/Los Angeles, CA Posts: 3,631	You're gonna record an entire choir in an 8x9 vocal booth? Most of a good choir sound will come from the room. Can you setup in a local church for an hour or so? If you insist on doing it in the space you have, I wouldn't bother micing the individual "sections," as they will be too small and close anyways. Use a stereo mic or a stereo pair, ORTF or X/Y should be good. As far as mics, I know I'll probably get flamed for this, and there are probably better options, but on the cheap, I've had a lot of success with a pair of AKG C1000s recording choirs in the past.

20th March 2007	#5
tINY Gear Guru Joined: Jul 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 10,233	You have to ask yourself if you are mic'n a choir, or 12 vocals... Sounds like 12 vocals. So, track them individually........ If you already have a TLM-103, then buy a SM-7 or an RE-20. -tINY

21st March 2007	#10
minus-sounds.com Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 505	Hi there. This is my first post in GS! The studio that I work has a lovely live room that is 9x18 meters and 5 meters high. The choir was about 40 or 45 singers. It was the first big project at the room so I was experimenting a bit. I have contributed greatly in choosing the equipment. The Choir has been positioned left to right: Sopranos Tenors Basses Altos The material was folklore songs of Cyprus and the studio is in Athens, Greece. I did set up 3 four channel stems with a variety of microphones. 1) Tube mics setup Neumann M149 (cardioid) on sopranos Rode NTK on tenors Rode NTK on basses Neumann M149 (cardioid) on altos All at about 3,5 meters high facing about 45o down 2) Ribbon mics setup four Beyer M160 Those were at about 2,2 meters and closer, to compensate for the low output of the ribbons. 3) One point Blumlein setup Line Audio QM12i Also at about 2,2 meters but a little behind the tube set. On one song there was some tenor solo and I have added as spot mic my Blue Baby Bottle. All sets were going into the two 8channel Millenia Media HV-3D. The second of those has the DC option and the ribbons were going into those inputs. I am a big slut. I got also in the studio a couple of Origins, 737s, DMCLs, a Yamaha DM2000 as digital routerfuuck and other slutty things that were not been used for that recording. The outputs of the HV-3Ds then went into the RME ADI-8 DS (I got 3 of those) to a Digiface to a Cardbus to my laptop, IBM T41 (5400rpm built in disk) recording in Cubase SX (if that matters) at 44.1/24bit. We were recording for about a week or little more for about 3 to 4 hours each time. Then the singers were tired, and they went out of tune slightly and that was not allowed. Results No EQ, no compression, no artificial reverb. Just the raw full dynamics of the very well trained choir. The ribbons were gentle but rather low on the output. Very dry roomwise dough to they pattern. The Millenias were pumping all the way and still they were low on the output. Maybe in the future I will bring that Millenia in the live room so that I will have the shortest possible cable runs. The tubes had definition in all the spectrum. The symmetrical positioning was aiming for stereo imaging and room sound too. The NTKs were nice but they could not keep out with the M149s. Maybe the M149 is the best mic in production. The quad cartridge Line Audio is my secret weapon. The Blumlein output was phenomenal. The stereo image was extending beyond the physical position of the speakers. The depth was true 3D. A little hyped the whole 3D stereo experience but very very flattering. Instant smiles from the director and some of the singers that cared to have a listen in the control room. Total winner. My advise. Get the www.lineaudio.se QM12i which is about $800 (this is the low end ) and you need four channels of mic pre and a phase reverse on the two back outputs of the mic. Or go up market, to a couple of figure8 mics like the Coles ribbons or the stereo Royer and to channels of mic pres. You need to capture the room with a choir. It just sticks everything together, in a good way. Put them to sing all together, if you can stuff them in there or go to a local church, as it has been mentioned earlier. Individual singing it may be controllable but it totally destroys the feeling of the performance. Good luck.