Recording a full length...what do i need?

[rob_keitel]

Hello everyone. After much debate in the band i'm in we have decided to for-go a "real" studio and do it ourselves. Or they have let me do it. So in july, we are going to my cabin to record 9 songs. Here are some of the problems.
1) I don't have much experience.
2) I don't own anything.
3) I'm in no way a gearhead


Basically, i'm hoping to gather as much knowledge as possible in about 5 months. I have the basics down. I know how to make something sound decent, but i want this to sound really good.

I have a problem with micing drums. Our drummer is great, but oh god, he has way too much stuff. A 5 piece kit and about 7 cymbals, its terrifying to look at. I've never mic'd his kit before, but i'm not sure what to use. The drums really drive the band and he's a dazzling player so i don't want to bury him, but cymbals always sound thin and tinny. Toms always sound dead and don't really have that meaty sound his has, so he can never be as loud in the mix as we want him to be.

I don't really want to buy anything right now, i'm saving for school (for audio production) and i really have no place to put it all. I'm just going to rent everything i'll need, but i'm not even sure what i'll need. I want to get some really high end drum mics to get the best sound possible but i'm not to sure what to get. I'm buying a mac book soon and its going to be my main recording/project computer. All the recordings i'm doing right now are all being mixed down to one stereo track. Its not to great but it works. I'd like to individually assign tracks to each microphone but i have no idea how to do that. I think i'm going to use cubase to do all this. I've used it before and i'm comfortable with it.

Anyways, if anyone can help me it'd be appricated. Thats all i can think of right now, but there will probably be alot more.

[zubdub]

First of all, I wouldn't use a laptop as a main mix/record system. Second of all, where are you located? That can make a difference in rental vs. studio prices. If you have any questions you can always PM me.

[methmetal]

Okay, if you are on a really tight budget, all you need for a good drum sound are two PZM mics. You can find some online for a decent price. Just these two mics can sound better than micing the entire drum kit. It will save you money. Also, make sure the drum kit is tuned right, and has semi-new heads on it. The proper way to tune a drum kit can be found online. As far as using a laptop to record, it can work. The laptop should have the most memory, biggest hard drive, and fastest CPU you can afford. Also, you will need a good cheap A/D unit. Lexicon makes a few that may work well. I would recomend the Omega unit. You can get it for $199.00 at Musician's Friend. Okay, you will need more stuff......a decent condenser mic for vocals. I saw one on MF for $46.97. It was a MXL 909; a good mic. And a Shure 57 for the guitars....$99.99 at the same website. Buying this stuff would be a hell of a lot cheaper than renting some stuff. I hope this helped you out. Good luck...peace.

[gainstages]

why don't we take this one thing at a time and start with drums.

i agree that going with a minimalist approach on mic'ing up the drums may be best if you are not experienced. pzm (also called boundry mics) can be pretty effective. Going with 2 room mics and a kick mic can also be very effective. (an alternate version is to add 1 additional mic on the snare in order to have a bit more control at mixdown). you can even go with a single stereo mic or spaced pair, although that may require a bit more experimentation with exactly where to place them.

in addition to keeping the amount of gear you need to rent or purchase to a minimum, the minimalist approach on drum micing will help you avoid issues created from phasing problems and bleed from one mic to the next - i've heard a lot of home recorded drums that really sound weak and unnatural because of these issues. having 10 mics around a single sound source requires some skill.

will the room you are recording in have a good sound to it?

[jahtao]

Some of my friends tried to do exactly this not too long ago. It was a complete an utter disater and i think after one week they had nothing to show for it.

They too had no almost no experience and owned very little equipment but had aspirations and even expectations at creating a long playing professional sounding record!!

They spend the first four or five days repeated driving back home fetching things things they'd forgotten, things they didn't think they'd need, things they didn't realise they needed until they'd gone back to fecth some of the other stuff. (power leads, hard drives, dongles, cables etc.)

They borrowed some stuff off me and didn't return 1 mic lead and a knob off one of my mic stands.

Then a day or two working how it all fit together in practice, getting in working and then only on the final day did they get round to any actual recording but half of this day was shutting up shop, packing and leaving.

You sound like you have a little more knowledge than them but watch out!! And if you want anything 'real studio' sounding go to one, or bring someone who has worked in one with you.

This s**t takes time, it just aint that easy, or everyone would be doing it. I loves me some querky and dirty sounding recordings and i think the way you describe is perhaps my fav way to record, BUT...

Very best of luck

[jahtao]

Some of my friends tried to do exactly this not too long ago. It was a complete an utter disater and i think after one week they had nothing to show for it.

They too had no almost no experience and owned very little equipment but had aspirations and even expectations at creating a long playing professional sounding record!!

They spend the first four or five days repeated driving back home fetching things things they'd forgotten, things they didn't think they'd need, things they didn't realise they needed until they'd gone back to fecth some of the other stuff. (power leads, hard drives, dongles, cables etc.)

They borrowed some stuff off me and didn't return 1 mic lead and a knob off one of my mic stands.

Then a day or two working how it all fit together in practice, getting in working and then only on the final day did they get round to any actual recording but half of this day was shutting up shop, packing and leaving.

You sound like you have a little more knowledge than them but watch out!! And if you want anything 'real studio' sounding go to one, or bring someone who has worked in one with you.

This s**t takes time, it just aint that easy, or everyone would be doing it. I loves me some querky and dirty sounding recordings and i think the way you describe is perhaps my fav way to record, BUT...

Very best of luck

[gainstages]

dude, you are sooooo right. i'm trying to be optimistic and offer some helpful advice, but the real truth is that it just isn't as easy as you think.

i'm sure you can get a recording made, the quality will be questionnable.

maybe, you can focus on learning about recording over the next 5 months and just do the recording part. then, pass it off to someone else to do some editing, mix it, and master it. that way you aren't trying to learn everything at once

i dunno what to tell you, if you want advise i'll be happy to keep sharing comments, but the last post was a good reality check, and it's good for you to hear that blunt honesty.

[roxxon]

Rob,


Go to a real budget studio, that has decent gear and an engineer who knows how to use the equipment that the studio owns.

Save yourself a ton of frustration, time and money.

You can also learn about recording in the process if you watch the engineer and ask for some pointers.


If you don't own much or any pro recording gear...
It will be cheaper in the long run to go into a real studio than to rent gear, piece by piece.

If you've never engineered before...
It would be foolish to the point of absurd to expect and to get professional results, with your maiden recording project.

If you want to save money...
Make sure that the band knows their songs well and play them in a very tight fashion ) a good groove is crucial) you don't want to be writing most of the songs and parts on studio time.

You could:
Rent out an all-on-one recording multi-track, like a Roland, Tascam, Korg or Yamaha.
With built in FX.
Also rent out and or borrow some decent budget-priced mics.
Do some pre-production demos before you go into a real studio.

For only a few hundred bucks cash outlay...
You can find out pretty much you will be up against attempting to record a band with limited experience and minimal amounts of quality gear.
If you can try to enlist the help of a friend who knows something about studio recording (it will also help out a lot if her or she owns some or a lot of decent recording gear).

Years ago...
My friend used to earn a living by doing remote location demos for struggling bands.
He owned a an older model Tascam 80-8 anolog recorder, some fx processors and mics.Monitors, a power amp and snake.

He would go to band houses, warehouses and rehersal halls.
He made some really good sounding demo tapes for a very reasonable price.
Keep this in mind...He knew how to use his gear well...Through trial and error...He had a ton of experience doing this...This is why he could turn out decent sounding recordings.

Learning and knowing exactly how to use certain recoding gear to it's best potential is very important, if that is...
You want to make a decent to great sounding recording.

If a rookie engineer, with very limited experience and knowledge of the gear at his or her disposal was given free time in a good recording studio that has good recording gear...For litle money or even for free...

It's highly doubtful that the rookie could possibly help to create a decent to great sounding recording...Without many hours of hands-on experience with the studio's gear.

If you want to make a professional-sounding recording...
Hire a pro.

[captawesm]

Originally Posted by rob_keitel

Hello everyone. After much debate in the band i'm in we have decided to for-go a "real" studio and do it ourselves. Or they have let me do it. So in july, we are going to my cabin to record 9 songs. Here are some of the problems.
1) I don't have much experience.
2) I don't own anything.
3) I'm in no way a gearhead


Basically, i'm hoping to gather as much knowledge as possible in about 5 months. I have the basics down. I know how to make something sound decent, but i want this to sound really good.

I have a problem with micing drums. Our drummer is great, but oh god, he has way too much stuff. A 5 piece kit and about 7 cymbals, its terrifying to look at. I've never mic'd his kit before, but i'm not sure what to use. The drums really drive the band and he's a dazzling player so i don't want to bury him, but cymbals always sound thin and tinny. Toms always sound dead and don't really have that meaty sound his has, so he can never be as loud in the mix as we want him to be.

I don't really want to buy anything right now, i'm saving for school (for audio production) and i really have no place to put it all. I'm just going to rent everything i'll need, but i'm not even sure what i'll need. I want to get some really high end drum mics to get the best sound possible but i'm not to sure what to get. I'm buying a mac book soon and its going to be my main recording/project computer. All the recordings i'm doing right now are all being mixed down to one stereo track. Its not to great but it works. I'd like to individually assign tracks to each microphone but i have no idea how to do that. I think i'm going to use cubase to do all this. I've used it before and i'm comfortable with it.

Anyways, if anyone can help me it'd be appricated. Thats all i can think of right now, but there will probably be alot more.

I know this must sound like the best thing to do for your band right now, and everyone thinks its a great idea, but these things usually go to shit. It takes a lot longer than 5 months to get your head around tracking and mixing. Plus are you really going to be able to rent everything you need? (interfaces, a lot of mics, cables, monitors, a decent mixing atmosphere?) To me this seems like a pretty bad idea, if you have 5 months before you are going to track this then ****, save your money for 5 months and go to a good studio in your area. This will give you a chance to see how its supposed to be done and then next time you guys do a cd you will probably have enough knowledge to do it yourself. If you are planning on going to audio school and are wanting some practice in this area, don't make your band the guinea pigs. Get some gear, get some ideas/knowledge, and record some local bands for a low price and get started that way. You are on the right track with that macbook, for smaller projects it should do really well and even some larger ones too. I'm not trying to just shoot your idea down, but honestly these things rarely work out and since you have so much time (5 months) why not just save some money and go to a real studio? just my 2 cents, good luck with whatever direction you take!

Jordan

[captawesm]

Originally Posted by gainstages

maybe, you can focus on learning about recording over the next 5 months and just do the recording part. then, pass it off to someone else to do some editing, mix it, and master it. that way you aren't trying to learn everything at once

This is another good option, in 5 months im sure you could learn the basics of what you need to track, mics, mic placement, and the like. Start searching this forum and check out andy sneap's forum, more towards the heavier side of things but still great advice none the less. But tracking it yourselves and sending it off to a mix and mastering engineer is probably the best thing to do if you guys really want to DIY.

great drum mics:
sm57 (snare, toms)
audix i5 (snare, toms)
421 (toms)
oktava mk-012(overheads)
kel hm-1(overheads)
audix d6(kick)
also get some decent condensers for some room mics.

[lampmeister]

...on a more positive note...

Consider hiring a nice 4 channel mic-pre and maybe tracking yourself and later going to a studio to mixdown.

[Robert M]

Agreed, recording is way more difficult than you'd think, mixing is even more difficult than recording.

One possibility is to get a pro to do the basic micing on the first day and then continue yourself. This way you can save some money and get a good sound. It probably would also be a good idea to hire the person who did the micing to also to mix the album, this way he'd really have to concentrate on micing.

[roxxon]

You spoke of concerns in getting decent sounding drums with a five piece drum kit...

First off, make sure that the drummer has new heads for his entire kit.

The dummer must be able to tune his kit properly or you will have to hire a pro to tune his kit for him.

You can get by using five or six Shure Sm57s and a couple of rented condenser mics for over-heads. If the kit is well-tuned with new heads.



You will also need a 48 volt power source for the condenser mics.
Keep that in mind...
Most all-in-one multi-track units have that feature built-in.
You want the ability to record more than one instrument at a time.
Forget the notebook idea, unless you have at least an 8 line I/O box.
And you will want a snake so you can record with multiple mics at the same time on individual instruments.

All in all, it would be far simpler to spend a little money and go into a real
budget-priced studio.

[roxxon]

Mixing well is an art!
It's not for rank recording novices.
Getting decent instrument sounds with new unknown gear would be tough enough...As it is!

Really it's probably going to be far cheaper to rent studio time with a real, experienced engineer in a budget-priced studio than to rent out gear and to do an even half-assed sounding recording.

You can learn a lot by watching a pro engineer at work.
You will probably attain more knowledge by going into a real studio and watching a pro engineer at work...In a week's time, than you will on your own in five months.

[darjama]

You don't have any equipment, and want to track drums in a way that's going to pick up all the nuances of 5 pieces of drums and an armada of cymbals? You're talking at least 7 mics (probably 9-10), as well as a soundcard that can accept that many inputs. Personally I'd do it with less, but but if you want each tom and cymbal hit to be an explosion, you're talking about close micing. And even if you've got the equipment, micing drums is one of the hardest skill sets to pick up.

I'll bet you can find someone with decent experience and gear and a nice sounding room to record you for $300-$500 a day.Track the drums there, along with scratch tracks of the other parts. Depending on how tight your drummer is with the material. Is timing an issue? plan on rehearsing with a click track for a while before going into the studio. Then you can bring the recorded tracks home with you to work on.

Then you can experiment with tracking the overdubs at home with a modest setup, say $300 for a soundcard (presonus or an echo firewire unit and will include some basic software), $1,000 for microphones (a nice condenser (AtT4060 and a sennheiser e906 would be my choices at the moment), $1000 for those powered adam monitors the kids love these days. If you're feeling rich get some outboard preamps. By not needing to get 7-8 microphones, you'll be able to get a few higher quality pieces.

You have to ask yourself what's more important: being able to brag about having done it all yourself or having a higher quality finished product.

[The dman]

I'm sure I'm not alone in that I've recorded a lot of projects like this after the fact. The band wastses a ton of time that they finally decide to to go to a studio. I record them in an fraction of the time that they were screwing around with much better results.

I applaud you for wanting to take the DIY route but realize you don't learn this craft overnight although the magazine ads want you to believe that.

darjama had some excellent advice.

I'll bet you can find someone with decent experience and gear and a nice sounding room to record you for $300-$500 a day.Track the drums there, along with scratch tracks of the other parts. Depending on how tight your drummer is with the material. Is timing an issue? plan on rehearsing with a click track for a while before going into the studio. Then you can bring the recorded tracks home with you to work on.

Then you can experiment with tracking the overdubs at home with a modest setup, say $300 for a soundcard (presonus or an echo firewire unit and will include some basic software), $1,000 for microphones (a nice condenser (AtT4060 and a sennheiser e906 would be my choices at the moment), $1000 for those powered adam monitors the kids love these days. If you're feeling rich get some outboard preamps. By not needing to get 7-8 microphones, you'll be able to get a few higher quality pieces.

You have to ask yourself what's more important: being able to brag about having done it all yourself or having a higher quality finished product.

[emkay]

This guy sounds motivated to learn. Well- what better way to learn that to just do it!!
We all have to start somewhere, and if he and the band know going into to it what the chances are of coming out with a good recording--well--what's there to lose. In the end,if everyone's on "the same page",it will only be a "win-win" on the road called "experience"

[rustyguns]

This is simply an opinion of someone who's maybe a few years ahead of where you're at with the crazy world of recording, but if you're playing in the band as well as trying to record, i'd highly suggest finding someone else to help. Having experienced pretty much the exact thing you're describing more than 4 or 5 times(recording my own bands/projects) it's worth it to pay someone else to help. The key to any great recording is really great songs with really great playing/singing. When the band is stressed about every single aspect of the whole experience the playing will suffer. It makes a world of difference to be able to show up, play the songs you've rehearsed and let someone who knows how make you sound decent. Also, you will probably learn more in that short time watching someone with years of experience than you will in the 5 months leading up to it. like i said, just an opinion of a guy with at least 5 crappy recordings to my name. good luck!!!
-Regan

[emkay]

[QUOTE=rustyguns;1154768]This is simply an opinion of someone who's maybe a few years ahead of where you're at with the crazy world of recording,____doesn't mean your opinion isn't valuable.


Also, you will probably learn more in that short time watching someone with years of experience than you will in the 5 months leading up to it. ................Yah! I guess you're right! Most great players, engineers, singers etc. that I know, got great by watching others than actually working at it and learning by their mistakes! I don't think so!

like i said, just an opinion of a guy with at least 5 crappy recordings to my name. ..............Haven't heard your stuff, but I'll take your word for it!!............You sound like a decent person in need of some self esteem. Why would anyone want your advice if you don't think a whole lot about what you're doing? I'm sure you've got the best of intentions, but why would you want to continue if you think your songs are crappy? I find this interesting.

Sorry for the hi-jack,,,,,,,,

[rob_keitel]

i appriciate the responses, and i wish it was that easy to go to a studio.

The thing is.

The studio in this city (i.e. the ONLY studio) is good, but i've been there before and they really don't listen to anything you say, and unless your spending a small fortune, they don't really care and they just want you out as fast as possible.

And i'm really not that unexperienced, i've recorded a couple bands and i definatly got the hang of it. Its just different when its your own stuff. When its someone else's you can find the sound through the mic's and you have no real bias towards what kind of sound you want, but when you play in the band you have a certain idea of what the sound should be. I just want to get a more together sound in terms of drums. Whenever i've mic'd this guys kit everything sounds very serperate, not like a drum set but just seperate drums. I'm not sure if i wanna go seperate mic's for each drum, or just a couple room mics and one on the kit. Thats why we wanted to do it on our own so we can take as long as we want to get the sound we like. We are a really tight band, and performances aren't a problem. The drummer can pretty much get everything in one take.

The thing i wanna learn is just that next step from hobby recording like doing a band at there jamspot or in my basement to actually taking alot of time with something, making sure everything is as good as we can get it. We don't want a super polished recording, because we know we can't get it, and thats fine as we want to have that diy thing to come through.

Cost isn't really an object for us renting wise. I have a good relationship with the fellow at the local rental counter and he swings me deals because of all my business. I just want to know how to get a good, untinny cymbal sound, as well as what i'd need to track all the drum mics indivually. The only thing i lack experince wise s in "pro gear" ala pro tools, cubase ect.

I'll probably post a thousand more questions leading up to this, which could go either alright/okay to a complete death march. Anyways.

Thanks for all the suggestions, and keep them coming now that its a little more clear.

[Mr. Friend]

my advice: dont listen to anyone here telling you that you can't make your own record. What they mean is, you can't make some overproduced, commercial, generic sounding piece of shit album that's gonna sell 10 million copies. If you guys want something to sell at shows, play for your friends, etc, you can do it.

It's not gonna sound like Nevermind, but there is so much music out there that is raw, underproduced, and a bit lo fi. John frusciante - the velvet underground - beat happening - sebadoh, etc. That's part of the charm...as long as the songs are good and they are recorded clear and you can make every part out nicely, that's all that matters. I say go for it.

[johnwayne]

It might be more realistic to try just a few songs. Tracking 9 songs can be confusing if you're not used to labeling and saving properly and backing up to external drives. It would be ashame to track everything and lose it when data did not get backed up.

I would say to buy some kind of soundcard now and just start doing it. You can read and study for 5 mos all you want but until you do it, you will truly understand how everything is supposed to work.

Things that might be troublesome are headphone mixes, being able to hear the track verses the track being recorded, punching in and out, and just having all the cables connected properly. Sometimes tracking down a bad cable can be frustrating. Have plenty of mic stands, cables, batteries, flashlights, manuals , strings, tuners, etc. This is usually alot to remember when you're first starting out.

Good Luck and have fun!

[moon_unit]

Originally Posted by rob_keitel

1) I don't have much experience.
2) I don't own anything.
3) I'm in no way a gearhead


... but i want this to sound really good.

I'm not certain that this is a very realistic goal, unfortunately.

On the other hand, it certainly isn't unrealistic to think that you could gain some experience, learn some things by trial and error, and just have some fun.

But if this is in any way an important project where sound quality and the final result will matter ... then have someone else do it. Anything you do now will likely suck. Trust me on this one.

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Mr. Friend

my advice: dont listen to anyone here telling you that you can't make your own record. What they mean is, you can't make some overproduced, commercial, generic sounding piece of shit album that's gonna sell 10 million copies. If you guys want something to sell at shows, play for your friends, etc, you can do it.

It's not gonna sound like Nevermind, but there is so much music out there that is raw, underproduced, and a bit lo fi. John frusciante - the velvet underground - beat happening - sebadoh, etc. That's part of the charm...as long as the songs are good and they are recorded clear and you can make every part out nicely, that's all that matters. I say go for it.

Exactly!

[Mr. Friend]

Originally Posted by emkay

Exactly!

wow, someone agreed with that. I'm glad, because I think what i said is pretty outrageous for the people on this board, but hey, after all, it is about a board about gear. not about good songwriting. anyway, thanks for the support, hopefully it encourages the thread starter thumbsup

[darjama]

Well, I think the glut of advice against Rob trying to do it himself is due to the method he's suggesting. He wants to rent a bunch of equipment he doesn't know how to use and get it to "sound really good" over a couple days. I'm all for the DIY approach and learning to do it yourself, but it's much harder when you're really limited by time.

[rob_keitel]

Well, i know how to use it, but as i said before, i'm not to experienced on the cubase side of things like multitracking the drums as oppossed to mixing all the mics down to a single stereotrack. Which gets me back to my main point, how would you fellows mic a 5 piece kit with 7ish cymbals. I'm trying to talk him down cymbal wise, but he's you know...a drummer. More mics? less mics? good tom tones? Anyone?

[emkay]

Originally Posted by rob_keitel

Well, i know how to use it, but as i said before, i'm not to experienced on the cubase side of things like multitracking the drums as oppossed to mixing all the mics down to a single stereotrack. Which gets me back to my main point, how would you fellows mic a 5 piece kit with 7ish cymbals. I'm trying to talk him down cymbal wise, but he's you know...a drummer. More mics? less mics? good tom tones? Anyone?

4 mics-- (and maybe a room mic, if the room sounds cool)

Kick-AKG D-12(preferable) or 112 ,Electrovoice RE 20,or Shure Beta 52
Snare-Shure SM 57 or Audio Technica 3000
Overheads-Large field here--Rode NT 5's, Oktava M 012's (?), Heils, AKG 414's etc.

You'll want to play with the overhead positioning in order to get a good balance of the toms and cymbals. Don't be afraid to experiment. Try "both" methods--from "Audience side" (Front)--or--Drummer's side (Rear). Sometimes having the OH mics "2 sticks apart" in distance and "2 sticks high" above the snare and floor tom works. It will all depend on the room (size, finish material etc.), where the drums are located in the room, the drummers dynamics, the heads. Make sure he has new heads on the drums (prescribed would be coated Ambassadors on top, and clear Diplomats on the bottom heads REMO heads). Make sure he's comfortable and doesn't have to make "concessions" for the sake of the recording (hitting mics for instance). If he has problems tuning, maybe the shop where you buy the heads will help. Don't forget in "our" genre of music, the drums will "make or break" the record!! It's the foundation and a house can't stand on a weak foundation. But-experimentation based on "prescribed methods" is the only way to learn. Don't be afraid, absorb the good advice from the "knowlegable" GS pros, and don't forget, there really aren't any "hard and fast" rules--artists are making records in bedrooms, living rooms, garages, stairwells, studios using all kinds of gear in every way imaginable. It's all about the music-It won't bite you......good luck....It will be a great experience!

[emkay]

Forgot!
Someone might want to chime in here about being careful with "phase cancellation" on the overheads and different overhead micing techniques like
Mid-Side.....Bluemlien-------------X/Y....

[moon_unit]

Originally Posted by darjama

and get it to "sound really good" ...

That's pretty much the deal-killer right there.

Depending on how important "really good" sound is, then it might be wise to re-think your strategy. And it isn't so much that you worry about a guy being able to work his rental equipment ... or the time constraints he's faced with. It's when you see him ask things like "How do I mic a drum set?" that you kinda' start to wonder.

If having an amateur-sounding finished product is an acceptable alternative ... then by all means go for it.