Have you, Are you, Should you...Ear Training

makoto · 20th January 2004, 10:07 PM

In an effort to expand the horizons of the post topics here......Lets try.....Ear training.
Are you, have you, should you follow a program of both critical listening and/or musicial interval and note/pitch recognition?
Makoto

smoothmoniker · 21st January 2004, 01:52 AM

Absolutely

If for no other reason, the ability to talk intelligently with the musicians and the producer about the relationships between their parts without having to constantly refer to a chart.

"It sounds great, but that "A" at the start of the Chorus might sound better as an "A#", to give it a #11 tonality."

"Everytime you voice that chord with the 5th on the bottom, the G is out of tune. Do you want try one of the backline guitars with a Buzz tuning?"

"Cellos are a third below the electric bass in the bridge - should I EQ the low end out of the electric so that there's less conflict down there?"

Instant respect, shows a dedication to music as a craft, not just sound as a commodity.

-sm

PlugHead · 21st January 2004, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by makoto
In an effort to expand the horizons of the post topics here......Lets try.....Ear training.
Are you, have you, should you follow a program of both critical listening and/or musicial interval and note/pitch recognition?
Makoto

FWIW,

I have perfect pitch, and tho it can be a curse in many, many ways, it's a godsend for re-arranging voicings, guitar lines, vocal harmonies (in the studio, as well as live performance) etc. Being able to tell players the exact notes rather than singing passages and them attempting to copy/follow can be a big timesaver. I think having basic musical knowledge is quite important nowadays, as musicianship and the calibre of players deteriorates grudge

I have known a few people who have developed either great relative pitch, or perfect pitch through ear training, and/or memorization of certain frequencies. It can be done, tho requires an amazing amount of determination. Some guitar players can tell you an E or an A consistently - the rest can fall into place should the individual want to understand intervals, and develop their speed at identifying them...

Good topic!

best,

Jay Kahrs · 21st January 2004, 08:21 AM

I don't have perfect pitch but I have really good relative pitch and some basic knowledge of music theory including modes and voice leading (which is mucho important when comping) that helps me out on a regular basis. It's much better to say "That's odd, try moving it up a step and a half" rather then "I dunno, try another 2-3 frets over". I think perfect pitch is something that can be learned over time, I can get a guitar really close to A 440 without going to a tuner. It's not dead on but I'm usually very close.

sounddevisor · 24th January 2004, 04:02 AM

As a musician first, AE engineer second, I will vouch for the fact that nothing will gain you more respect from musicians in the studio than being able to talk intelligently about the music - pitches, intervals, theory, etc.

Jay Kahrs wrote:
I think perfect pitch is something that can be learned over time, I can get a guitar really close to A 440 without going to a tuner. It's not dead on but I'm usually very close.

There are two kinds of perfect pitch. Some people are born with perfect pitch - they can just recognize pitches, no training or practice necessary. If you ain't born with it, you won't ever have it. There is also a "learned" perfect pitch - that's what you've got (or are getting), Jay. It is possible to learn to recognize pitches through practice and familiarity, and you can develop it to the point where you essentially have perfect pitch, but it's not really the same as being born with it.

Anyhow - ear training for engineers? Highly recommended!

sounddevisor

**DrDeltaM** · 24th January 2004, 12:40 PM

Dunno if you get born with perfect pitch or not... I think you rather get born with the ability to develope perfect pitch or not.

I got perfect pitch as long as i can remember, but i would think i couldn't have had it before having any note-related contact. I mean, every note i hear sounds like the instrument/sound in question 'saying' the (dutch) notename it's playing atm. That relation with notenames can only have started from the moment i got the first music education.

Anyway, it's very handy!

matucha · 24th January 2004, 01:37 PM

I have nothing like perfect pitch, but I'm very sensitive for harmonies and pitch... I suffer everytime harmony is wrong or singer or instrument is out of pitch. Other example of this is with "dance" remixes of old songs. Taking vocal only and adding "half" working

harmonies, to the original. Need to skip that everytime, it's horrible ;-)

5down1up · 24th January 2004, 04:13 PM

pitch makes you go nuts

i had hell with pitch & instruments , pitch & gear , etc.

having perfect pitch is awesome ... well i dont have it .
sometimes i feel that the notes are saying their names by themselfes . realizing short intervals in a piano chord is kinda hard for me .

after many years of music , my ears are still tending to tune everything more " major " .

i hope its getting better . as more as i hear something i am not used to and figure it out , the better it gets .

would like to know how it works for the " perfect pitch " folks .

you hear something and can tell what it is in a complex structure or is it more like ... c , a- , g

if i could play all the stuff thats in my head , WOW , would be awesome , takes the most time to figure that out .

peace

**DrDeltaM** · 24th January 2004, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 5down1up

would like to know how it works for the " perfect pitch " folks .

you hear something and can tell what it is in a complex structure or is it more like ... c , a- , g

For example when there's played the note C and then Ab, i'll hear those 2 notenames (Ab being a darker/more sad A sound actually ;) ). The structural meaning comes after that, but since you know the note-names, structure is easy too, and rather instantly seen. Being a minor sixt interval in this case.
Other ppl who hear this have no idea what notes it are, but do know it's a minor sixt interval. They do hear the structure, but not the notes.

This is of course a very simple example, but it's true for more complex stuff also.

5down1up · 24th January 2004, 07:56 PM

hi dr.D

well your surprising me every time

PlugHead · 25th January 2004, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrDeltaM
Dunno if you get born with perfect pitch or not... I think you rather get born with the ability to develope perfect pitch or not.

I got perfect pitch as long as i can remember, but i would think i couldn't have had it before having any note-related contact. I mean, every note i hear sounds like the instrument/sound in question 'saying' the (dutch) notename it's playing atm. That relation with notenames can only have started from the moment i got the first music education.

Anyway, it's very handy!

I agree: one is predisposed to being able to "identify" having perfect pitch, and is born with the tools to do so: it's a matter of circumstance whether or not you are musically inclined early on, and whether or not you pursue enough training to help you identify this trait. I don't believe i was born with perfect pitch, rather, the circumstances under which I was brought up helped to facilitate knowing I have it. I suspected it, and made my sister plunk out notes on the piano while I sat in another room identifying them. I was 10 at the time, and had been curious for awhile. Upon further reading, it's claimed (studied) that 80% of people with perfect pitch started musical training before the age of 5. I was 4. I still hear note names when musical passages are played - guess some aspects can't get shut off, tho pitch can be tampered with: living with a piano with a cracked soundboard and 1/4 tone flat for a semester at school was enought to throw my pitch off till I moved...
As for development of pitch recognition: I know a couple of great musicians who developed their skills (accuracy) well enough to have perfect pitch, or extremely refined relative pitch - it can be done, and tho is a helluvalot more work as an adult, is possible (but no promises... grudge)

All in all, a very fascinating subject, and a major cause of pain and frustration in my career. But, on the flip side, it provides an incredibly deep understanding of many, many aspects of musicality (bagpipes and accordians excepted

)

Jay Kahrs · 25th January 2004, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrDeltaM

Other ppl who hear this have no idea what notes it are, but do know it's a minor sixt interval. They do hear the structure, but not the notes.

That's pretty much where me and a lot of my friends fall. There are just a small handful of people I've worked with that have perfect pitch and can hear something like an A minor#9 and pick out every note and how they're stacked within the chord.

5down1up · 25th January 2004, 03:32 PM

sorry jay , but i guess an Aminor#9 doesnt exist

the #9 would be the minor third .

i know #9 just in relation to X7#9
( or a major chord with a minor third )

... and everybody knows ...

thats the HENDRIX chord

am i wrong ?

bjornson · 25th January 2004, 09:06 PM

Perfect pitch can be a curse. Temperment is a moving target. It's like a bad choir teacher using a piano to get parts in tune. Pythagoras figured this out by dividing plucked strings. The 12 notes just can't fit perfectly into every key. Next time you're at the piano play an A, and sing the E above so it rings with no beating. Now play the E. Interesting !!!! Read "Lies my music teacher told me" by Gerald Eskelin. Then get "Training the ear" by Armen Donelian, with the CDs. I work with talented classical players all the time and it's funny to watch people argue over where 440 is when the conn strobotuner sits right there spinning away in the room. I once tuned our 7'5 concert grand to 442 on purpose to just do a little test, (It wasn't being used on the session, only for tuning) and only the cellist suggested it sounded a little sharp. And he's the one who never bragged about his "gift". Now when a client comes in talking the perfect pitch talk, I ask them "just for fun" to walk the walk. I've rarely been impressed. Most of these folks can't sing the 1st phrase of their favorite songs in the right key from memory either. (great ear training tool!)To me a keen sense of relative pitch plus musical and ear training are the goal. I was once on a grammy sponsored panel where another panelist exclaimed he was "GLAD he had no musical training because it didn't interfere with his engineering."
As I slowly slid my chair away from his, I wanted to cry. It's like a photographer not having a basic understanding of light and optics. Berklee school of music has been a great source of reference material for me in this regard. You can order stuff online. FWIW I personally no longer employ engineers (or interns for that matter) who don't come from a musical background.
Anybody can place mics and push buttons.
(Now stepping off podium and into flame retardent suit.)

jdier · 27th January 2004, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PlugHead
FWIW,

I have perfect pitch, and tho it can be a curse in many, many ways, it's a godsend for re-arranging voicings, guitar lines, vocal harmonies (in the studio, as well as live performance) etc. Being able to tell players the exact notes rather than singing passages and them attempting to copy/follow can be a big timesaver.

best,

Plug,

I think you are crossing the lines. I know people with perfect pitch who cannot tell a 4th from a 5th. You play a note, they tell you what it is. You play two notes, they can tell you what each is, but cannot tell you the interval.

Your perfect pitch is impressive, but it is your MUSICAL TRAINING and KNOWLEDGE which enables you to effectively re-arrange voicings, guitar lines, and vocal harmonies... Your perfect pitch plays less of a role than your musical training in these cases

(in my opinion)

Jim

jdier · 27th January 2004, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 5down1up
sorry jay , but i guess an Aminor#9 doesnt exist

the #9 would be the minor third .

i know #9 just in relation to X7#9
( or a major chord with a minor third )

... and everybody knows ...

thats the HENDRIX chord

am i wrong ?

A minor #9 does exist. It just implies that the #9 would be added to the top of the chord.

The hendrix chord (if we are talking about the same thing) is a seventh chord witha #9. If your logic (regarding their not being a minor #9) was correct, then this chord kinda falls apart.

Example: The 'hendrix' chord is E 7#9

The voicing on guitar would be E Ab D G B (the first E is on the A string and then they go up from there)

Now take and drop the Ab to a G.... You have an E-7#9. If you wanted an E-7, without the #9 you would likely not play the G on the b string (unless it was the only place the 3rd apeared in the voicing, like in the case of a standard barre chord , barred at the 7th fret.)

These basic voicing thoughts also apply to X2 chords vs X9 chords, and 6th vs. 13th chords.

viaspiaggia · 27th January 2004, 06:59 PM

i read somewhere recently (can't remember where of course) that the latest theory on perfect pitch is that we are all theoretically born with the ability to recognize pitch, and its just a matter of cementing that knowledge in a child at a young age. the evidence to support this was mandarin speakers (i think it was mandarin). often the same phonetic sounds have different meanings if said at different relative pitches or with different inflections up and down. they did tests on several people where they recorded their speech over the course of several days, and indeed the people used the EXACT same pitches for their words. who knows if that's all true, but its interesting food for thought.

now if only i could remember where i read that....

-adam-

5down1up · 28th January 2004, 12:36 AM

sorry jdier , but i guess thats not right either

#9 doesnt mean minor triads in octaves , same goes for 6ths , 2nds or 4ths .

if theirs a 6ths ... theres probably no 5
if theirs a 13ths ... there can be a 5
kindalike suspended 4ths , sus2 etc.

C6 = I cmaj ~ replacement for Cmaj7 means something totally different then cmaj7/13

probably you can name it how u want too ? i read a 100 different names for the same thing .

keep on talking ...

lets call a gmin from now on ... abb#9

PlugHead · 28th January 2004, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdier
Plug,

I think you are crossing the lines. I know people with perfect pitch who cannot tell a 4th from a 5th. You play a note, they tell you what it is. You play two notes, they can tell you what each is, but cannot tell you the interval.

Your perfect pitch is impressive, but it is your MUSICAL TRAINING and KNOWLEDGE which enables you to effectively re-arrange voicings, guitar lines, and vocal harmonies... Your perfect pitch plays less of a role than your musical training in these cases

(in my opinion)

Jim

Jim,

Yeah, "impressive" things aside: musical training and ability is the key to greatness in music, recorded or performed - you cannot get perfection from editing the hell out of something, it has to come from the players, and the really "exceptional" ones don't need any hand holding, or advise on how to re-arrange/harmonize anything. Refer back to my other post:
"I agree: one is predisposed to being able to "identify" having perfect pitch, and is born with the tools to do so: it's a matter of circumstance whether or not you are musically inclined early on, and whether or not you pursue enough training to help you identify this trait."

that about says what I meant,

cheers,

smoothmoniker · 28th January 2004, 07:34 PM

whoah nelly

there's some bad music theory banging around here.

The only difference between extensions (second octave tones) and their primary (first octave equivalent) tones (13 vs 6) is that the extension allows for the use of every extensions beneath it, in sequence

a 6 does not allow for any other extension tones other than the 6

a 13 allows a 7, 9, 11 (usually raised a half step), and a 13.

C6 = C,E,G.A

C13 = C,E,G,Bb,D(F# - allowed, not needed),A

There's nothing in the chord name that denotes voicings.

C m #9 does not exist. It's a Cm7, that's all. If you want to denote voicing with the 3rd on top, you have to either use tab, or write out the (god forbid) notes.

-sm

Drey · 29th January 2004, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bjornson
Perfect pitch can be a curse. Temperment is a moving target. It's like a bad choir teacher using a piano to get parts in tune. Pythagoras figured this out by dividing plucked strings. The 12 notes just can't fit perfectly into every key. Next time you're at the piano play an A, and sing the E above so it rings with no beating. Now play the E. Interesting !!!! Read "Lies my music teacher told me" by Gerald Eskelin. Then get "Training the ear" by Armen Donelian, with the CDs. I work with talented classical players all the time and it's funny to watch people argue over where 440 is when the conn strobotuner sits right there spinning away in the room. I once tuned our 7'5 concert grand to 442 on purpose to just do a little test, (It wasn't being used on the session, only for tuning) and only the cellist suggested it sounded a little sharp. And he's the one who never bragged about his "gift". Now when a client comes in talking the perfect pitch talk, I ask them "just for fun" to walk the walk. I've rarely been impressed. Most of these folks can't sing the 1st phrase of their favorite songs in the right key from memory either. (great ear training tool!)To me a keen sense of relative pitch plus musical and ear training are the goal. I was once on a grammy sponsored panel where another panelist exclaimed he was "GLAD he had no musical training because it didn't interfere with his engineering."
As I slowly slid my chair away from his, I wanted to cry. It's like a photographer not having a basic understanding of light and optics. Berklee school of music has been a great source of reference material for me in this regard. You can order stuff online. FWIW I personally no longer employ engineers (or interns for that matter) who don't come from a musical background.
Anybody can place mics and push buttons.
(Now stepping off podium and into flame retardent suit.)

Thank god for people like you.

I think ear training is a wonderful tool. Engineering is about making the music sound as good as possible. How can you do that as well as someone who has a fire for music?

Jay Kahrs · 29th January 2004, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 5down1up

lets call a gmin from now on ... abb#9

Start reading or writing horn charts and you might see that...

5down1up · 29th January 2004, 11:20 AM

true jay , horns are the "B" sections

jdier · 29th January 2004, 03:18 PM

Smooth,

thank for reminding me that there is always more that I can learn... Your post cleared up some things, and confirmed others.

One question though, you CAN have a 5th in a 6th chord, correct? on the piano I always drop the 6th one step over the 5th...

This is correct, right?

Jay,

Horn parts drive me nuts... If I could write them all in C I would be cool, but I recently transcribed 10 James Brown tunes and had to transpose to Eb and Bb for the sax and trumpet.

Now that sucks!

bigbaby987 · 29th January 2004, 09:37 PM

i've been a musician all my life.....started playing piano at 5, went to trumpet at 12 and finally finished with the rest of the band in college. when i left college i could nail any brass note, but only relative when it came to the rest of the instruments. however after years and years of good relative pitch i decided to check out the perfect pitch series and it has done a pretty good job. again as previously posted you have to work at it......as in anything, the more you practice the better you get.

cebolao · 3rd February 2004, 12:15 AM

everybody's talking about strictly musical ear training.

i want to tell you about an interesting lessons we had on the Sound Engineering Faculty at the Warsaw Music High School - it was called "solfege of the timbre".

it was on the very beginning of education, on the first year. we had to play with white noise generator connected to huuuge b&k labolatory filter - or rather graphic equaliser (but a very "strong" one - you could almost completely filter off frequencies). we were told to boost and cut the frequencies and learn how they sound. the class was full of "tshshshshsh", "tshushushushushu", "bhgbhgbhgbhg" - you know, all that formanted and filtered (a little psychodelic...) white noise sounds.

then we had tests - like in every school. you get the question and you have to anwser it. the question is the sound of filtered, or boosted in certain frequency white noise. the anwsers were 1kZh boost, 8 kHz LPF, 250 Hz boost and so on.

of course there was a "normal" solfege also (singing, music dictations and all this), but the "solfege of timbre" was more fun. and it teached us how to use the eq.

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21st January 2004, 01:52 AM	#2
smoothmoniker Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 442	Absolutely If for no other reason, the ability to talk intelligently with the musicians and the producer about the relationships between their parts without having to constantly refer to a chart. "It sounds great, but that "A" at the start of the Chorus might sound better as an "A#", to give it a #11 tonality." "Everytime you voice that chord with the 5th on the bottom, the G is out of tune. Do you want try one of the backline guitars with a Buzz tuning?" "Cellos are a third below the electric bass in the bridge - should I EQ the low end out of the electric so that there's less conflict down there?" Instant respect, shows a dedication to music as a craft, not just sound as a commodity. -sm __________________ metricusers.com - the Metric Halo Users Forum

24th January 2004, 01:37 PM	#7
matucha Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 2,035	I have nothing like perfect pitch, but I'm very sensitive for harmonies and pitch... I suffer everytime harmony is wrong or singer or instrument is out of pitch. Other example of this is with "dance" remixes of old songs. Taking vocal only and adding "half" working harmonies, to the original. Need to skip that everytime, it's horrible ;-) __________________ Matous Godik

28th January 2004, 07:34 PM	#20
smoothmoniker Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 442	whoah nelly there's some bad music theory banging around here. The only difference between extensions (second octave tones) and their primary (first octave equivalent) tones (13 vs 6) is that the extension allows for the use of every extensions beneath it, in sequence a 6 does not allow for any other extension tones other than the 6 a 13 allows a 7, 9, 11 (usually raised a half step), and a 13. C6 = C,E,G.A C13 = C,E,G,Bb,D(F# - allowed, not needed),A There's nothing in the chord name that denotes voicings. C m #9 does not exist. It's a Cm7, that's all. If you want to denote voicing with the 3rd on top, you have to either use tab, or write out the (god forbid) notes. -sm __________________ metricusers.com - the Metric Halo Users Forum

3rd February 2004, 12:15 AM	#26
cebolao Gear addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 373	another approach to ear training everybody's talking about strictly musical ear training. i want to tell you about an interesting lessons we had on the Sound Engineering Faculty at the Warsaw Music High School - it was called "solfege of the timbre". it was on the very beginning of education, on the first year. we had to play with white noise generator connected to huuuge b&k labolatory filter - or rather graphic equaliser (but a very "strong" one - you could almost completely filter off frequencies). we were told to boost and cut the frequencies and learn how they sound. the class was full of "tshshshshsh", "tshushushushushu", "bhgbhgbhgbhg" - you know, all that formanted and filtered (a little psychodelic...) white noise sounds. then we had tests - like in every school. you get the question and you have to anwser it. the question is the sound of filtered, or boosted in certain frequency white noise. the anwsers were 1kZh boost, 8 kHz LPF, 250 Hz boost and so on. of course there was a "normal" solfege also (singing, music dictations and all this), but the "solfege of timbre" was more fun. and it teached us how to use the eq.

20th January 2004, 10:07 PM	#1
makoto Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 206	Have you, Are you, Should you...Ear Training In an effort to expand the horizons of the post topics here......Lets try.....Ear training. Are you, have you, should you follow a program of both critical listening and/or musicial interval and note/pitch recognition? Makoto

24th January 2004, 04:02 AM	#5
sounddevisor Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 127	As a musician first, AE engineer second, I will vouch for the fact that nothing will gain you more respect from musicians in the studio than being able to talk intelligently about the music - pitches, intervals, theory, etc. Jay Kahrs wrote: I think perfect pitch is something that can be learned over time, I can get a guitar really close to A 440 without going to a tuner. It's not dead on but I'm usually very close. There are two kinds of perfect pitch. Some people are born with perfect pitch - they can just recognize pitches, no training or practice necessary. If you ain't born with it, you won't ever have it. There is also a "learned" perfect pitch - that's what you've got (or are getting), Jay. It is possible to learn to recognize pitches through practice and familiarity, and you can develop it to the point where you essentially have perfect pitch, but it's not really the same as being born with it. Anyhow - ear training for engineers? Highly recommended! sounddevisor

24th January 2004, 12:40 PM	#6
DrDeltaM Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,623	Dunno if you get born with perfect pitch or not... I think you rather get born with the ability to develope perfect pitch or not. I got perfect pitch as long as i can remember, but i would think i couldn't have had it before having any note-related contact. I mean, every note i hear sounds like the instrument/sound in question 'saying' the (dutch) notename it's playing atm. That relation with notenames can only have started from the moment i got the first music education. Anyway, it's very handy!

24th January 2004, 04:13 PM	#8
5down1up Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,373	pitch makes you go nuts i had hell with pitch & instruments , pitch & gear , etc. having perfect pitch is awesome ... well i dont have it . sometimes i feel that the notes are saying their names by themselfes . realizing short intervals in a piano chord is kinda hard for me . after many years of music , my ears are still tending to tune everything more " major " . i hope its getting better . as more as i hear something i am not used to and figure it out , the better it gets . would like to know how it works for the " perfect pitch " folks . you hear something and can tell what it is in a complex structure or is it more like ... c , a- , g if i could play all the stuff thats in my head , WOW , would be awesome , takes the most time to figure that out . peace

24th January 2004, 07:56 PM	#10
5down1up Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,373	hi dr.D well your surprising me every time

25th January 2004, 03:32 PM	#13
5down1up Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,373	sorry jay , but i guess an Aminor#9 doesnt exist the #9 would be the minor third . i know #9 just in relation to X7#9 ( or a major chord with a minor third ) ... and everybody knows ... thats the HENDRIX chord am i wrong ?

25th January 2004, 09:06 PM	#14
bjornson Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 533	Perfect pitch can be a curse. Temperment is a moving target. It's like a bad choir teacher using a piano to get parts in tune. Pythagoras figured this out by dividing plucked strings. The 12 notes just can't fit perfectly into every key. Next time you're at the piano play an A, and sing the E above so it rings with no beating. Now play the E. Interesting !!!! Read "Lies my music teacher told me" by Gerald Eskelin. Then get "Training the ear" by Armen Donelian, with the CDs. I work with talented classical players all the time and it's funny to watch people argue over where 440 is when the conn strobotuner sits right there spinning away in the room. I once tuned our 7'5 concert grand to 442 on purpose to just do a little test, (It wasn't being used on the session, only for tuning) and only the cellist suggested it sounded a little sharp. And he's the one who never bragged about his "gift". Now when a client comes in talking the perfect pitch talk, I ask them "just for fun" to walk the walk. I've rarely been impressed. Most of these folks can't sing the 1st phrase of their favorite songs in the right key from memory either. (great ear training tool!)To me a keen sense of relative pitch plus musical and ear training are the goal. I was once on a grammy sponsored panel where another panelist exclaimed he was "GLAD he had no musical training because it didn't interfere with his engineering." As I slowly slid my chair away from his, I wanted to cry. It's like a photographer not having a basic understanding of light and optics. Berklee school of music has been a great source of reference material for me in this regard. You can order stuff online. FWIW I personally no longer employ engineers (or interns for that matter) who don't come from a musical background. Anybody can place mics and push buttons. (Now stepping off podium and into flame retardent suit.)

27th January 2004, 06:59 PM	#17
viaspiaggia Gear nut Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: chicago Posts: 92	i read somewhere recently (can't remember where of course) that the latest theory on perfect pitch is that we are all theoretically born with the ability to recognize pitch, and its just a matter of cementing that knowledge in a child at a young age. the evidence to support this was mandarin speakers (i think it was mandarin). often the same phonetic sounds have different meanings if said at different relative pitches or with different inflections up and down. they did tests on several people where they recorded their speech over the course of several days, and indeed the people used the EXACT same pitches for their words. who knows if that's all true, but its interesting food for thought. now if only i could remember where i read that.... -adam-

28th January 2004, 12:36 AM	#18
5down1up Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,373	sorry jdier , but i guess thats not right either #9 doesnt mean minor triads in octaves , same goes for 6ths , 2nds or 4ths . if theirs a 6ths ... theres probably no 5 if theirs a 13ths ... there can be a 5 kindalike suspended 4ths , sus2 etc. C6 = I cmaj ~ replacement for Cmaj7 means something totally different then cmaj7/13 probably you can name it how u want too ? i read a 100 different names for the same thing . keep on talking ... lets call a gmin from now on ... abb#9

29th January 2004, 11:20 AM	#23
5down1up Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,373	true jay , horns are the "B" sections

29th January 2004, 03:18 PM	#24
jdier Gear addict Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wisconsin, US Posts: 354	Smooth, thank for reminding me that there is always more that I can learn... Your post cleared up some things, and confirmed others. One question though, you CAN have a 5th in a 6th chord, correct? on the piano I always drop the 6th one step over the 5th... This is correct, right? Jay, Horn parts drive me nuts... If I could write them all in C I would be cool, but I recently transcribed 10 James Brown tunes and had to transpose to Eb and Bb for the sax and trumpet. Now that sucks!

29th January 2004, 09:37 PM	#25
bigbaby987 Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 529	i've been a musician all my life.....started playing piano at 5, went to trumpet at 12 and finally finished with the rest of the band in college. when i left college i could nail any brass note, but only relative when it came to the rest of the instruments. however after years and years of good relative pitch i decided to check out the perfect pitch series and it has done a pretty good job. again as previously posted you have to work at it......as in anything, the more you practice the better you get.