Best of the Chinese Ribbons?

[Michael_Joly]

My "Round Head" mod is really intended for the Nady RSM-4 ($89 at Musician's Friend and musician.com as of this writing) and not the Cascade Fathead which has improvements along the lines of what I do - as GuitarRuss points out.

On another note, the Nady RSM-4 and the Apex 205 are the current price leaders in the low-cost ribbon mic contest. A couple of years ago I suggested the major rebranders might someday use very low pricing as a strategy to preempt group buy efforts and maintain brand visibility. Looks like this is happening now. Raises the question - would you rather buy a $45 Chinese "group buy" ribbon mic and wait 4 months for delivery or buy a Nady or Apex now for $90 and have it in your hands in three days?

[willsing]

Any comparisons between the Karma K6 and the Apex 205? I heard the K6 is a really good mic, but is a little dark. At this point, I am tempted by either the K6, the 205 or the fathead for fingerpicking guitar (mostly nylon). Can't afford a Royer yet.
Anyone?
Thanks,
Will

[TAVD]

The Apex is also pretty dark until you pull the junk out.

[WKG]

Sooo... out of curiosity I ordered an Apex 205 from Full Compass. Not a bad mic right out of the box. Slapped it up for some quick electric and acoustic takes to check it out and even tried it on female vocals. Liked it on all of them. Liked it so much I ordered another one as well as a couple of Lundahl transformers to do the upgrades. Build quality really isn't bad, the mic clip seems a little cheap but it works fine. Overall it seems pretty solid. I am excited to get the mods done and see the difference.

[dougb415]

Originally Posted by WKG

Sooo... out of curiosity I ordered an Apex 205 from Full Compass.

I was going to do this, but it says "usually ships in 1-2 months".

MONTHS?!?

[filthyrich]

I got one from Front End for around 110..I think. I am very happy with it and very happy with the Mod that M. Joly did. Good stuff.

[WKG]

Originally Posted by dougb415

I was going to do this, but it says "usually ships in 1-2 months".

MONTHS?!?

Sorry about that...I must have got the last one in stock...

I am sure there are some other dealers who have them in.

[Michael_Joly]

Yeah, Full Compass quotes the lowest price on the web for the Apex 205 but rarely has the mics in stock. Clever ploy to get people to their site huh?

This mic is still a great deal from Warren at Front End Audio.

[WKG]

Yup. Warren has them for $99.00. That's still a good deal.

[Chrisc_o]

Funny, I ordered the Apex from Full Compass last Monday, and I missed the delivery on Friday (got it on the second delivery attempt on Monday).

Oh, and I am in Canada. Less than a week to get it across the border is pretty darn good in my opinion.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by jaguarmusicboy

Have to jump in quickly to say I was SHOCKED at how good the NADY RSM-2 mics I have sound. I used them in an accoustic piano "shoot out" along side a pair of Neuman KM 184s, a pair of Lomo 19A-18s, a pair of Earthworks TC 30Ks, and a pair of new issue 19A-18s with the Oktava capsule. The inclusion of the ribbon mics was an afterthought, kind of a control on a test designed primarily to evaluate the condensers.

The RSM-2 pair did brilliantly. If you ever want a BIG WARM classical sound - like an Alfred Brendel recording from the 80s, these are very nice indeed. I then set one up to do a comparison on vocals and sax with my RCA 44BX. The Nady RSM-2 performed - (IMHO) better. Higher output, less proximity effect, really nice sound. I love my Wes Dooley restored 44BX, but for $189.00 I'd say go for a pair of the RSM-2s. If you google NADY Ribbon Mic Mods you will find a couple of folk out there who can make them sound even better for minimal $. Plus they look pretty cool! They several other models of ribbon mics I have not tried but the top price is $269.00 ... a far cry from what you would pay for a Royer or and AES.

Only caution: NADY does NOT guarantee the ribbons so they give you a grace period to test your mic to see if it's functioning. After that, handle them carefully because they are inherently delicate - like all classic ribbon mics - and if you damage the ribbon on one of these you might as well replace the mic.

PS. I've heard very good things about the SE electronics ribbon mic (don't know the model #) but they are not exactly cheap.

I Agree. The Nady's are damn good.

[WKG]

What are you guys using to stuff in the bottom of the mic? I don't think I have any "open cell foam" around the house...

There is the dense foam that came with the 205 packaging...I think I remember reading somewhere that stuffing cotton in it may do the trick?

Any suggestions?

[WKG]

Ok, I found some foam...duh...

One mic is done. I did the tranny first, before the acoustic/mechanical mods because I have read other posts ho-humming the difference with the tranny swap after the other mods were already done. I noticed an immediate difference with the Lundahl. The mic cleared up and sounded smoother overall. Slightly less output maybe but sonically definitely improved. Next I pulled the two waffle plates with the silk covers, the inner grill, stuffed the bottom cavity and added a bit of dense foam between the ribbon motor and the mount. Put it up on a little acoustic. Very nice. Excellent low end, very smooth. Highs were great, has a nice silkiness to it now, very open sounding. I could tell the bit of spikey resonance was gone. The stock mic sounded good no doubt but I think there was some masking going with some exageration in the high end that hid the lack of clarity, IMO. Overall much improved afterwards.

Bottom line, I think all the mods are worth it for these. Next time though I'll probably send them to OktavaMod, It just takes me too long to do them right. The end result is excellent though, I feel like I just got a steal on a couple of really great mics I probably would otherwise have had to put off buying for another few years. Thank you to Michael and the others who have posted in these threads.

BTW the ribbon was fine in this one, no sag and no visible defects. I expect the other will be too as they sounded very close stock.

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by WKG

...I did the tranny first, before the acoustic/mechanical mods because I have read other posts ho-humming the difference with the tranny swap after the other mods were already done. I noticed an immediate difference with the Lundahl. The mic cleared up and sounded smoother overall. Slightly less output maybe but sonically definitely improved.

Thanks for taking the time to do the tranny swap first - independently of the other mods - and confirm the improvments I hear: less ringing distortion and smoother overall (I believe the frequency response at both ends is extended as well.)

I think the small level drop may be due to the reduction in midrange peakiness and ringing.

Its really labor intensive, but for anyone who really wants to study the effects of the individual components of these mics it is possible to swap one component at a time (especially if you have two mics) and make A/B tests of just a single variable as you've done with the tranny. For example, the effect of the waffle plate / silk components, the single vs dual grille headbasket mesh and ribbon tension.

I did this early on with the TOMB mic and eventually concluded I liked the sound best with the full suite of mods done. But it was a valuable excercise to learn how to recognize the signature contributions of each component in the system.

[WKG]

One thing I noticed about the transformer swap. I remember Kevin at K&K telling me that they usually need to have signal passed through them for a little while to break them in (I can't remember if that's the exact term he used...something to do with magnetization of the transformer...). I left the first mic up in front of a speaker for a day or so with music playing and noticed it sounds like it improved a little. I'll do the same with the other.

I set them both up on acoustic and flipped phase on one, almost complete cancellation, not total but close enough to use as a pair anyways, can't wait to try them out on drums.

I am happy

[WKG]

Originally Posted by dougb415

I was going to do this, but it says "usually ships in 1-2 months".

MONTHS?!?

Looks like Full Compass has them back in stock, shows 1-2 business days shipping now.

[Michael_Joly]

NOTE: This post was updated by the author on December 5, 2007 to reflect new findings.

Recently I had a chance to do a quick voice test on a number of different ribbon mics. On hand were the Nady RSM2, RSM3, RSM4, RSM5, Apex 205 and Coles 4038.

With the exception of the 4038 which remained stock, all mics were modified with a Lundahl transformer, 1.8 micron ribbon, acoustical damping and a single layer grille. In the case of the RSM3, achieving a single layer grille required cutting away the horizontal bands and installing a new stainless steel grille.

The quick take away - each of these modified ribbon mics is in the same quality league as the 4038, a mic known for its smooth and extended frequency response.

Here's some similarities and differences between them.

RSM3 (Royer-look) and RSM5 (oblong "lollipop") - 12/5/07 UPDATE: The RSM-5 was recently changed from the offset-ribbon design I discuss below to a symmetrical ribbon design to avoid running afoul of the Royer patent. To the best of my knowledge, RSM5 mics shipped in wooden boxes with shock mounts have the offset ribbon design while newer RSM5 mics shipped in cardboard boxes without shock mounts have a symmetrical ribbon design.

Both of these mics use a nearly identical motor with a 35mm x 5mm ribbon offset toward the back of the magnet structure as the mic is faced from the front. This asymmetrical placement of the ribbon creates non-matched lobes and a brighter frequency response on the front side (recessed ribbon side). Note that the ribbon asymmetry is the opposite of that used in a Royer mic (probably done to avoid an obvious patent infringement). Once modified with greater open-area grilles the RSM3 and RSM5 are essentially identical. While not optimum for M-S or Blumlein work, the offset ribbon design does offer a chance to experiment with two slightly different high frequency response curves. As a side note, the stock RSM3 grille bands create such complex high frequency interference patterns it is hard to describe their effect - definitely a HF coloration that tends to render "S" and "F" sounds a bit smeary.

RSM4 (round "lollipop") - While this mic also uses a 35mm x 5mm ribbon, it is placed nearly symmetrically in the gap. Yeah, I know - the RSM4 is spec'd as 45mm, but the magnet lengths are 35mm and this measurement is how the RSM3 and RSM5 are specified as 35mm ribbon lengths. The overall sound of the RSM4 is quite similar to the slightly darker "ribbon forward" (back) side of the RSM3 and RSM5. The near-symmetrical placement of the ribbon in this mic makes it a better choice for M-S or Blumlein recording.

RSM2 (large yoked body) and Apex 205 (small blue body) - These 50mm x 5mm ribbon mics tends to have a bit lower resonant tuning than the mics listed above. In addition, the vertical off-axis response falls off quicker in these longer ribbon mics when compared to the 35mm ribbon length mics. Both mics feature symmetrical placement of the ribbon in the gap making them the best performers for M-S or Blumlein recording. Of these two, the Apex 205 has clearly lower headbasket-induced mechanical resonance.

12/5/07 UPDATE: High Frequency Response - In my earlier post I neglected to mention the difference in high frequency response between the "long ribbon" motor used in the RSM2, Apex 205 etc. and the "short ribbon" motor used in the RSM3, RSM4, RSM5. Due to difference in ribbon motor design, the long ribbon mic motors have very extended high frequency response, their 3dB down point occurs slightly above 16kHz while the short ribbon mic motors have a 3dB down point that occurs at 8kHz. There are some minor differences in the shape and slope of the roll-off beyond the 3dB down point due to physical construction of the housing that surrounds the motors as well.

Some thoughts on a comparison with the Coles 4038.

The 4038 is about 3.5 dB more sensitive than the mics above and has outstanding AC hum field rejection. The RSM2, RSM4 and Apex 205 have wiring that can be physically tweaked to improve hum cancellation but still don't equal the 4038 in this regard.

All of the modified Chinese ribbon mics have a very smooth midrange and very adequate top end. In no case was the energy of high frequency "S" and "F" sounds attenuated relative to the Coles. In fact, I would argue that all of the modified Chinese ribbon mics had more accurate HF transient response and a "tighter" presentation of "S" and "F" sounds than the Coles. I believe this may be due to the difference between the minimalist approach I take regarding ribbon damping and motor housing when compared to the Coles which includes ribbon damping screens, low frequency baffles, perforated high frequency reflectors and a perforated metal case. All of these design features of the 4038 were arrived at to solve certain problems, but they do impart subtle, audible artifacts.

These Chinese ribbon mics have striking visual differences. But once the acoustical artifacts of the different grilles and bodies are minimized, state-of-the-art transformers are swapped in and lower mass ribbons (the Coles is a 0.6 micron, 1" ribbon) are installed and tuned similarly, all of these mics sound quite similar - and very good indeed, like real recording instruments in the class of the 4038.

[jwl]

Wow, thanks for that, Michael.

As always, Michael Joly = Da Man.

[drBill]

Ribbon lovers.....

check this out. There will be at least one surprise happening....

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-...mparisons.html

[miqer]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Yesterday I had a chance to do a quick voice test on a number of different ribbon mics. On hand were the Nady RSM2, RSM3, RSM4, RSM5, Apex 205 and Coles 4038.

thomann:
Nady RSM2 (T.Bone RB-500) , Nady RSM3 (T. Bone RB-100), Nady RSM4 (T.Bone RM700),

[Shadow_7]

Does anyone know what exactly the Lundahl/Cinemag transformer upgrade does for a mic? I was looking at some of the cascades and one in particular I seemed to have noticed a $150 price difference with only a transformer upgrade. I'm really wanting a ribbon mic as I'm a brass player and ribbon mics seem to capture more of the soul of the horn/sound.

My only mic at the moment is an AT 4033a, and it does well as a room mic. But seems to add too much color to the sound. While some of that might be the preamp and DI, I still feel that a ribbon mic would be better suited for my audio tastes.

Utlimately I'd like a blumlein pair of FH II's. But I'd like to start with a single and hopefully cheaper ribbon mic. Possibly a cascade to get a feel for their quality, but not a FH II since I'll eventually get a matched stereo pair of them. Any suggestions in the $300 (+/- $150) range.? For use on Trombone and Brass Ensemble(s)?

[chetatkinsdiet]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

Utlimately I'd like a blumlein pair of FH II's. But I'd like to start with a single and hopefully cheaper ribbon mic. Possibly a cascade to get a feel for their quality, but not a FH II since I'll eventually get a matched stereo pair of them. Any suggestions in the $300 (+/- $150) range.? For use on Trombone and Brass Ensemble(s)?

If you've got $300 to spend now, go ahead and get a pair of the FH's from Cascade. If you like them, great. If you think you'd like them more with the Tranny upgrade, then you can send them to Joly later. That way, you're getting your pair of mics in your budget.

m

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

If you've got $300 to spend now, go ahead and get a pair of the FH's from Cascade.

While I don't know what the upgrade does, I'm pretty sure I'll want it. So the stereo pair I'm looking at is $700-ish, with the upgrade and stereo bar, plus aluminum case.

[chetatkinsdiet]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

While I don't know what the upgrade does, I'm pretty sure I'll want it. So the stereo pair I'm looking at is $700-ish, with the upgrade and stereo bar, plus aluminum case.

Yeah, if you're looking at them doing the mods, with the upgraded tranny and the bar. As mentioned above, you could do go the route of getting the standard FH mics as they're pretty darn nice as is. You might just like it. I know I dig my pair. Maybe down the road I'd look at a tranny upgrade.

A stereo bar is about $20 at any online store. Don't let that sway you.

m

[drBill]

What kind of brass? I'd try the stock fathead first. In the same pricerange is the Apex 205 - $80. I had mine modded right out of the box so I can't compare them stock. They have worked excellent for me on Tpts, Piano and WW. The lundhal trannys open them up on the top and bottom making them quite nice.

Check my post a few posts above for a link to some sound tests on piano. If you go to near the end of the thread I posted a tpt section clip.

Michael Joly at Oktavamod is the guy for the mods. The Apex comes out to a little over 300 IIRC. Good luc k.

[Bleek]

Hey Shadow,

I too am a trombone player and have been toying with similar options as you. I have the Apex 205 and have done the mechanical mods too it (no transformer upgrade) and it sounds good. But I have had to ditch a few of the files as once I track up a few in a mix they don't sit as I had hoped..... I don't quite know what that means.

I would recommend checking out the CAD Trion 7000. I picked up mine for $170 off ebay.
Here's 4 bones that I recorded for a track with the Trion 7000.
Trion 7000-FMR RNP No effects, dry....

[Bleek]

Bit of a topic tangent here. I might repost them under trombone or something!

For my interest and possibly yours here is the same section of track recorded with a Sennheiser 441 and a Rode NT-2A.
There is no scientific process here these were all recorded at different times to send to someone. Same room. The big difference is that the Sennheiser and Rode were done through my Presonus Firepod pre's and the CAD Trion 7000 was through an FMR RNP.
All are bone dry though.

My big surprise was the 441. That 'was' my go to mic for trombone. When tracked up was muddy and disappeared into the mix.
The NT-2A, i don't like that much on it's own but worked when mixed in.
The Trion 7000 sounds great (I think) at capturing the bone sound and mixes nicely.

Sorry if this is topic sabotage!

[Marty J]

Originally Posted by Shadow_7

While I don't know what the upgrade does, I'm pretty sure I'll want it.

LOL!

There ladies and gentlemen, is gearslutz in a sentence.

The upgrade might make a bit of a difference but it's certainly not worth $150. Buy a transformer and do it yourself.

[Shadow_7]

Originally Posted by Marty J

The upgrade might make a bit of a difference but it's certainly not worth $150. Buy a transformer and do it yourself.

Well, on the FH II's, it appears to only be a $50 difference. On one of the other ribbons it appeared to be a $150 upgrade. Although that might include extras, like an aluminum case, pink breast cancer ornamentation, or something special. At least it better have for $150.

[morebutter]

Excuse me if I missed this, but what is the part # of the transformer people are using to upgrade the Apex 205's, where is the best place to buy the xfrmr?