Best of the Chinese Ribbons?

[cjogo]

Think we will go with the Karma or Sontronics --our pre just doesn't have the gain required for most the ribbons on the list.

[dkelley]

I've owned both the apex 210 and the apex 205, and I sold the 210 (the big one) after only a few days of experimentation. Really bad ringing from the grille and/or body resonances, terrible high end, and inferior build quality (to almost every mic I've ever used). The 205 on the other hand, while half the physical size and not as impressive looking, contains exactly the same ribbon element yet is built ten times better (same build concept, just way better put together and much fewer resonances etc), has more high end, is sturdier, and in my opinion is one of the best lead guitar mics on the planet irrelevant of price. Well ok, for $2000 I can do better, but seriously it's a great mic for certain uses, where the 210 needs such major physical rebuilding inside (mods etc) to muffle resonances and open up it's tone that it's just not worth it. And the 205 is half the price, it's as cheap as a used sm57!!

Haven't used any oktavas personally yet but heard great things about the trion 7000 and some others on your list, but for cheap and easy to find I do recommend the 205 for lead guitars and other situations (at least for a queen-esque lead guitar tone that's nice and bright out of the amp).

Cheers,
Don

Originally Posted by Harley-OIART

If you ever have the spare time, I am really hoping you can formulate an opinion for me as to which of the low priced ribbons on the market are actually hidden gems. So far a colleauge of mine told me the "large" Apex ribbon is a great find (I think Apex 210), but I am curious to find out which of the cheapies really is the hidden gem. Basically I am looking for the best cheap cheap cheap stop-over on my way to Royer 122V's

[cjogo]

Originally Posted by dkelley

I've owned both the apex 210 and the apex 205, and I sold the 210 (the big one) after only a few days of experimentation. Really bad ringing from the grille and/or body resonances, terrible high end, and inferior build quality (to almost every mic I've ever used). The 205 on the other hand, while half the physical size and not as impressive looking, contains exactly the same ribbon element yet is built ten times better (same build concept, just way better put together and much fewer resonances etc), has more high end, is sturdier, and in my opinion is one of the best lead guitar mics on the planet irrelevant of price. Well ok, for $2000 I can do better, but seriously it's a great mic for certain uses, where the 210 needs such major physical rebuilding inside (mods etc) to muffle resonances and open up it's tone that it's just not worth it. And the 205 is half the price, it's as cheap as a used sm57!!

Haven't used any oktavas personally yet but heard great things about the trion 7000 and some others on your list, but for cheap and easy to find I do recommend the 205 for lead guitars and other situations (at least for a queen-esque lead guitar tone that's nice and bright out of the amp).

Cheers,
Don

Will the 205 perform well ~~~ with the relatively small gain (45) of the Manely DVC ??

[drBill]

Probably not too good on quiet sources. Loud stuff like guitar amps or drum overheads would be OK.

[cjogo]

Originally Posted by drBill

Probably not too good on quiet sources. Loud stuff like guitar amps or drum overheads would be OK.

So ...look more for a Karma or SOntronics ( Phantom powered )?? Any other ribbons that require less umph ?? Really wanted to use them in vocal/acoustic guitar tracking...

[drBill]

If you've got a compressor after it where you can make up some gain, you might be fine. Why not just buy one and check it out to see if it works for you. $80 isn't much and maybe you'll love it.

[cjogo]

Originally Posted by drBill

If you've got a compressor after it where you can make up some gain, you might be fine. Why not just buy one and check it out to see if it works for you. $80 isn't much and maybe you'll love it.

just the limiter of the DVC ...but worth a try though............thanks

[David@MVS]

Originally Posted by cjogo

Will the 205 perform well ~~~ with the relatively small gain (45) of the Manely DVC ??

Unless yours has been modified, the stock DVC has 55 db of gain.

Either way, I had no trouble with an R121 back when I had a DVC. You should be fine.

Regards,
David

[lpkyer]

just got the apex 205....before the mods its great.....seriously its much better than I expected...and better than all samples I heard. Maybe I got lucky or something.
Now I am completing all the mods except the tranny one...heard it wasnt worth it...

[cjogo]

Originally Posted by David@MVS

Unless yours has been modified, the stock DVC has 55 db of gain.

Either way, I had no trouble with an R121 back when I had a DVC. You should be fine.

Regards,
David

\

thanks David ----will pick up the Aphex 205 >> can't go wrong ~ to test at that price.

[Michael_Joly]

Audio files of Coles 4038 vs. OktavaMod Apex 205 on drum OH are now up:
http://www.oktavamod.com/news.html

This is my stock 4038 compared to an Apex 205 with full acoustical, mechanical and Lundahl transformer upgrades. Recorded by Juan Lardizabal at the Los Angeles Recording School.

[Audiopool]

It would have been nice to have an unmodified Apex as a reference. But it's true, the Apex/Oktavamod sounds less muddy.

[diamondjim]

Originally Posted by Fieldstone

Just got a shipment of Cascade FATHEADs in from Bayview Pro Audio. We ordered a stereo pair which came in nifty wooden boxes inside padded briefcases. One sounded really great, reserved top end, thick bottom end - great drum overhead mic. The other (same mic, different serial #) seems to be giving us a problem...overloading quickly with small amounts of gain applied.

Contacting Bayview to do an exchange for the bad one. We'll see how their customer service is...so far great, so I'm optimistic.

I have their Victor ribbon, and it sound perfects on acoustic bass paired with an ADL 600. I am liking it alot for under $200. Similar to the Fathead but longer ribbon.

As I understand it, Cascade takes Chinese hardware and replaces the ribbon and electronics with American parts.

diamond jim
www.barnjazz.com

[bigbone]

Originally Posted by lpkyer

just got the apex 205....before the mods its great.....seriously its much better than I expected...and better than all samples I heard. Maybe I got lucky or something.
Now I am completing all the mods except the tranny one...heard it wasnt worth it...

I did the mod on my 205 and it sound great on OH'S.......you will hear the difference

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Audio files of Coles 4038 vs. OktavaMod Apex 205

Thanks michael. If you've got any more clips in different applications, make sure to post them up.

Last week I used your modded 205 as a mono room, 4-5 feet off the ground (little above tom level), 6-8 feet in front of the drum kit. And I just about fell out of my chair when I brought the fader up. I'd always used LDC's (U87, M71S, UM70's, V6) as stereo room mics (mor off the kit towards the corners of the room pointed at the kit) and had been only mildly impressed. But the Apex BLEW ME COMPLETELY AWAY!!!!!! I have never heard so much low end extention and punch. And that was just thru my D&R Orion pre's. I was using the Biz, GAMA & API's on K/Sn/OH. It sounded very different than your clip - probably mostly because it was out in front of the kick area. I need to some more experimentation, but NONE of my other mics had that kind of killer low end extention. And just punchy too. Of course a great drummer and well tuned drums and a decent room help but...... Honestly, I was flabbergasted.

I used the 205 for what I bought it for yesterday - Trumpet. Had a whole day session. Shot out the mic with a U87, 421, 414B-ULS, V69. The Apex was the clear winner for this app, although the V69 was nice as well, but a little bright. I needed the tpt to "sit" well in the mix with other orchestral instuments generated via the sonic implants sample library. Used it with the Biz pre and it was great. I was 4 feet off and 2 feet above the tpt, and it was a little "roomy" but that is what actually helped me out in this app. I'd really like to try closer micing tpt with it in the future for more jazz/pop applications. I think it would excell with a little proximity on it.

Now all I have to do is get another.... :-)

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by drBill

Last week I used your modded 205 as a mono room, 4-5 feet off the ground (little above tom level), 6-8 feet in front of the drum kit. And I just about fell out of my chair when I brought the fader up. I'd always used LDC's (U87, M71S, UM70's, V6) as stereo room mics (mor off the kit towards the corners of the room pointed at the kit) and had been only mildly impressed. But the Apex BLEW ME COMPLETELY AWAY!!!!!! I have never heard so much low end extention and punch. And that was just thru my D&R Orion pre's. I was using the Biz, GAMA & API's on K/Sn/OH. It sounded very different than your clip - probably mostly because it was out in front of the kick area. I need to some more experimentation, but NONE of my other mics had that kind of killer low end extention. And just punchy too. Of course a great drummer and well tuned drums and a decent room help but...... Honestly, I was flabbergasted.

Haha, I guess that's an example of how a well suited ribbon mic can single handedly in mono record something as great as the drum part from "when the levee breaks" from led zep 4. Admittedly, different type of ribbon mic, amazing room, and arguably one of the world's best drummers and kits and rooms (er.... mansions). But when you posted this is started me thinking that maybe I should try that single ribbon trick in a great room like they did for that track... might be fun and this mic has that low end for it alright.

Cheers,
Don

[drBill]

Don, when you wrote "when the levee breaks" that just deja vu'd my whole mindset regardiing the 205. The ribbon definately came from that camp. Ambient, big, slamming. The rest of the kit had a Beta52 inside the kick, 414B-ULS outside the kick, i5 top of snare, M201 side of snare, C451 HH, 421's on the toms and I specifically chose the V69's for OH's because of how they make the toms sound huge. (Necessary for these tom heavy songs I was recording.) The mono room mic was like adding a fine vintage wine to a dinner that was already exquisite.

[manning1]

ive been reading this thread with great interest.
some excellent info.
weirdly enough ive been telling friends the apex range of mics is pretty good value for some time. but not had chance to chek out the 205.
but will at L/M in canada here. this week.

(also if anyone knows any drummers who can lay down great sounding drum traks for fun...please pm me...i have some songs i need a great drummer on....
song contributor credit of course will be given. ie........the drummer on this song was..."xyz".)

[Yetti]

What about maintenance on the Apex 205 ribbon?
Where do you send it if the ribbon breaks?
Or is it cheaper to just buy a new mic for $80?

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Yetti

What about maintenance on the Apex 205 ribbon?
Where do you send it if the ribbon breaks?
Or is it cheaper to just buy a new mic for $80?

Dunno about Apex although Yorkville's customer support is pretty good ime. Nady will re-ribbon their versions of these for $50, so the Nady rep told me at AES.

[dkelley]

Originally Posted by Yetti

What about maintenance on the Apex 205 ribbon?
Where do you send it if the ribbon breaks?
Or is it cheaper to just buy a new mic for $80?

from what I've always understood, you're screwed in that case. it becomes a toy for the kids. or, just to be wierd, throw in an old 57 capsule and see what you can make out of your new frankenstein mic.

nady reribbons (they claim), but why bother for the price, and I think apex doesn't do any repairs, L&M might do warranty replacement but they're pretty clear on the apex literature, you toast the ribbon, you've bought a paperweight. for for $80 to $100, I mean seriously, who cares? I've had reribboning done for more than that of other mics.

Don

[Yetti]

Originally Posted by dkelley

from what I've always understood, you're screwed in that case. it becomes a toy for the kids. or, just to be wierd, throw in an old 57 capsule and see what you can make out of your new frankenstein mic.

nady reribbons (they claim), but why bother for the price, and I think apex doesn't do any repairs, L&M might do warranty replacement but they're pretty clear on the apex literature, you toast the ribbon, you've bought a paperweight. for for $80 to $100, I mean seriously, who cares? I've had reribboning done for more than that of other mics.

Don

That's what I thought....if it breaks, buy a new one.
I remember reading some M. Wagner post, where he mentioned a Fostex model of ribbon mic that sounded great, but required re-ribbon every week or so in front of blasting guitar amps.
I would plan on using the 205 in front of blasting amps...but would like to get at least a few years out of the damn thing.
I own about 20 different condensor and dynamic mics, but I have never personally even tried working with a ribbon mic.
Just from reading these positive posts, and considering the low price, I plan on getting 1 or 2 of the apex 205's.....and hope they don't die quick.

[bigbone]

Originally Posted by manning1

ive been reading this thread with great interest.
some excellent info.
weirdly enough ive been telling friends the apex range of mics is pretty good value for some time. but not had chance to chek out the 205.
but will at L/M in canada here. this week.

(also if anyone knows any drummers who can lay down great sounding drum traks for fun...please pm me...i have some songs i need a great drummer on....
song contributor credit of course will be given. ie........the drummer on this song was..."xyz".)

PM me if you want, that's what i do, doing drums tracks in my studio ,
i even did a couple of album for peoples in here........

[Harley-OIART]

So just out of curiousity...

Do we have a bit of a consensous formed here?

What really are the best of the best ribbons on a budget?

I want a R-122V, but frankly thats not in the cards right now... so in the meantime I need something brilliant for cheap to tie me over for my electric guitar needs =)

Are you able to wiegh in now that you've had some time Warren?

Best Regards Everyone,
Scott

[MsM]

Would also be interesting to hear buyer's experience on how the product quality is, widely varying or consitently mediocre? How long did the ribbon last? (And what situation made it break?) Do they hold up when the sh.t hits the fan (or ribbon...)?

I guess as always, you kind of get what you pay for.... my impression in general is that the quality of a lot of Chinese products is very variable, and you need to factor in a higher than normal possibility of getting a lemon, translating to 'throw it away - it's cheap', or using time to try getting it handled by the shop (good luck) Anyway I see it you waste your time and/or cash.

One thing is sound, another is usability and value for money.

(Leaving the soapbox; Yeah, I know I sound grumpy, but, I'm getting tired of bad quality. Maybe I have a too negative view, though. That's why hearing other's experience would be great.)

[Michael_Joly]

In response to MsM's thoughts and questions these are my answers inspired from working on about 70-80 Chinese ribbon mics starting with the Tape Op group buy mic from several years ago, continuing through the Nady RSM series, some Thomann mics, a few Cascades mics and a lot of Apex mics. Taking MsM's comments in order:

1.) Q: Product Quality? - A: Ribbon tension and ribbon motor assembly quality control vary widely. While these mic have the potential to be pretty fine performers, in my experience 30% to 50% of the mics I've seen have ribbons that are so slack they are sagging out of the magnetic gap and are unusable. An equal number have very loose ribbon motor nuts & bolts that not tightened and secured with a locking compound to prevent loosening during travel. A slack ribbon causes low output, distortion and severe "clanging" mechanical noise when the mic is moved or driven hard.

2.) Ribbon durability? A: This has not been a problem. Stock Chinese ribbon mics using a 6 micron or 2 micron aluminum ribbon are no more sensitive to breath pops or bass cabinet tuning port "chuffs" than any other ribbon mic. Ribbon mics can withstand and reproduce incredibly loud source material - but they do not tolerate direct puffs of air. This is true whether the mic cost $100 or several thousand Euros. My advise to anyone who really wants to understand how a ribbon reacts to loud sounds and gentle puffs of air is to invest $100 and buy any ribbon mic you find at that price. Take the headbasket off and start placing it in front of kick drums, bass cabinets and singers. Watch (and listen in headphones) how the ribbon reacts. Push the thing until it breaks so you know what not to do in a real session. This is inexpensive training that teaches lessons you'll never forget - lessons you won't have to learn in public during an important session

3.) You get what you pay for. Well...you may get a great sounding mic with proper ribbon tension right out of the box - a mic that does quite well in A/B tests against the established name brand mics for really short money. Or...you may get a mic with a ribbon so slack you say to yourself upon auditioning it "what is all this ribbon mic fuss about? this thing sound like crap". But no matter what you hear, these mics offer a great learning opportunity whether they're perfect or not.

[chetatkinsdiet]

Damn...I was all set to send in my 012's to Michael to mod....now, I might have to send in my fathead's first.....Or, should I send my MP20 to Jensen for the tranny swap first, then get the Oktavas done, then I can......I'm going to bed.

m

[MsM]

Thanks, Michael

Excellent point on using a cheapo as a training tool. Get one, if it's ok, probably spare it, and get another which might be expendable

[GuitarRuss]

Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet

Damn...I was all set to send in my 012's to Michael to mod....now, I might have to send in my fathead's first.....Or, should I send my MP20 to Jensen for the tranny swap first, then get the Oktavas done, then I can......I'm going to bed.

m

I think most of the quality control issues are not with cascade's ribbons. They are an American company that re-ribbons Chinese ribbon mics and makes a few other adjustments like changing the head basket and offering transformer upgrades. Maybe a lemon gets sent out very occasionally, but I would have a hard time believing it's anything like the Chinese ones - I mean, why go to the trouble of re-ribboning and then leaving it slack like a rubber band? That said, I'm curious what mods Michael Joly offers on Fatheads, I know his ribbon of choice is even thinner than the Cascade one (which is waaaay thinner than the stock one), but Cascade already offers the Lundahl/Cinemag transformer upgrade. I'm curious, because I just bought a pair of Fathead 1's myself.

[Michael_Joly]

My "Round Head" mod is really intended for the Nady RSM-4 ($89 at Musician's Friend and musician.com as of this writing) and not the Cascade Fathead which has improvements along the lines of what I do - as GuitarRuss points out.

On another note, the Nady RSM-4 and the Apex 205 are the current price leaders in the low-cost ribbon mic contest. A couple of years ago I suggested the major rebranders might someday use very low pricing as a strategy to preempt group buy efforts and maintain brand visibility. Looks like this is happening now. Raises the question - would you rather buy a $45 Chinese "group buy" ribbon mic and wait 4 months for delivery or buy a Nady or Apex now for $90 and have it in your hands in three days?