a low-cost 4-mic drum situation and your opinions on my choices

[mischultz]

So it's a little un-toward, but I have a Beta52 and a Beta57 (the original one that actually sounds like something on snare) that I could package for $220, leaving you a nice chunk to put into the overheads.

But I'm not seeing any bad choices here, so I think you'll be in good shape no matter which direction you end up going.

Best,

Michael

[svart]

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIX-D6-i5-2-MX...QQcmdZViewItem

someone has a setup for you already. I'd jump on that.

[themixtape]

ah dammit... I just bought a pair of Rode Nt5s on ebay this morning for $330, shipping included (brand new).

I shoulda waited...

Argh.

That beta package sounds interesting, though... with the guy above... How is the Beta 52 for kick.... is it equivalent to the D112? Or should I go for the D112.... or the D6???????

My head's gonna explode. haha.

Originally Posted by svart

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIX-D6-i5-2-MX...QQcmdZViewItem

someone has a setup for you already. I'd jump on that.

[themixtape]

Ok... this is the final round.

I got a pair of Rode NT5s this morning on ebay, as I mentioned above. I think I got a good deal. Hardly anyone says anything bad about the NT5s. The pros and hobbyists alike swear by them for overheads. So I went with 'em.

Ok.... this leaves KICK, and SNARE.

The D112 is my leader, I think.... everyone loves it. But... also, everyone loves the Audix D6! Haven't heard much about the Beta 52, so I'm skeptic about it.

I've read countless threads. COUNTLESS! I can't decide on the kick mic.

Regarding snare... I think either the SM57 or the Audix i5 will be the winner. Either that, or I could use my SM58 to mic it as one guy suggested, and save money.

So.... where am I at? Haha. A headache is my current location....

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

ah dammit... I just bought a pair of Rode Nt5s on ebay this morning for $330, shipping included (brand new).

I shoulda waited...

Argh.

That beta package sounds interesting, though... with the guy above... How is the Beta 52 for kick.... is it equivalent to the D112? Or should I go for the D112.... or the D6???????

My head's gonna explode. haha.

I think Beta 52 vs. D112 is kinda like "do you like Blondes or Brunettes?" They are pretty different but either will get the job done (no offense meant to brunettes.) The D112 seems to be hated and loved by more people where the Beta 52 does not polarize people as much.

I have both and really am glad that I do. If you have the patience, wait it out on ebay and try to get both used within your budget. You should be able to get the Beta 52 easily for $110. If you hold out, for less. The D112 should be able to be grabbed for $135 easily or as little as $100 if you hold out.

I might suggest you post in the second hand area here: WTB D112 or Beta 52. That is exactly how I found my AKG 414 for $450 and my SM7 for $200.

If I had to suggest one, I would probably pick the AKG112 just because when it comes to mix time, I typically choose that track. I also think that the 112 will give you just enough of that subtle click you are looking for. But having both is the way to go.

Good luck!

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Ok... this is the final round.

I got a pair of Rode NT5s this morning on ebay, as I mentioned above. I think I got a good deal. Hardly anyone says anything bad about the NT5s. The pros and hobbyists alike swear by them for overheads. So I went with 'em.

Ok.... this leaves KICK, and SNARE.

The D112 is my leader, I think.... everyone loves it. But... also, everyone loves the Audix D6! Haven't heard much about the Beta 52, so I'm skeptic about it.

I've read countless threads. COUNTLESS! I can't decide on the kick mic.

Regarding snare... I think either the SM57 or the Audix i5 will be the winner. Either that, or I could use my SM58 to mic it as one guy suggested, and save money.

So.... where am I at? Haha. A headache is my current location....

D112 on kick, SM58 on snare (for now)

Phase two: work with those mics until you know exactly what you like or do not like about them, then add either the Beta 52 for a fuller/rounder kick sound or the SM57 for snare.

You will be able to make kick ass recordings with the D112, 58 and Rodes! Good luck!

[themixtape]

Ah Jim, yes... THANK you.

Ok...

One final question. I'm REALLY new to drum miking. So you think I would have the best results with the D112 re: ease of use, fastest-getting-of-good-sound...? Or would you recommend different stuff for basically a beginner engineer (not beginner drummer).

I will definitely do the WTB thing here on gearslutz.

Originally Posted by jdier

If I had to suggest one, I would probably pick the AKG112 just because when it comes to mix time, I typically choose that track. I also think that the 112 will give you just enough of that subtle click you are looking for. But having both is the way to go.

Good luck!

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Ok... this is the final round.

I got a pair of Rode NT5s this morning on ebay, as I mentioned above. I think I got a good deal. Hardly anyone says anything bad about the NT5s. The pros and hobbyists alike swear by them for overheads. So I went with 'em.

Ok.... this leaves KICK, and SNARE.

The D112 is my leader, I think.... everyone loves it. But... also, everyone loves the Audix D6! Haven't heard much about the Beta 52, so I'm skeptic about it.

I've read countless threads. COUNTLESS! I can't decide on the kick mic.

Regarding snare... I think either the SM57 or the Audix i5 will be the winner. Either that, or I could use my SM58 to mic it as one guy suggested, and save money.

So.... where am I at? Haha. A headache is my current location....

Here is one more great link. This is a description and conversation about the 4 mic technique explained by Recorderman: http://recording.org/modules.php?nam...er=asc&start=0

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Ah Jim, yes... THANK you.

Ok...

One final question. I'm REALLY new to drum miking. So you think I would have the best results with the D112 re: ease of use, fastest-getting-of-good-sound...? Or would you recommend different stuff for basically a beginner engineer (not beginner drummer).

I will definitely do the WTB thing here on gearslutz.

I was a beginning engineer and got usable results with an SM57. 1 month later I bought the Beta 52 which was an improvement. Then few months later picked up the D112. Is was the easiest and quickest for me to get a good sound from, but remember, I had spent 4-6 months screwing with the 57 and 52.

They will all work. They will all take a little time getting used to.

Use your ears, take your time, try all the ideas you read here, then throw them out and try your own ideas. You will get a great sound!

[themixtape]

You're the man, Jim. Thanks.

I think I'm sold on the D112 just because of its reputation. I also am favoring the Audix i5 over the 57.... but I'll use the 58 for now, see what I can get out of it.

-Chris

Originally Posted by jdier

I was a beginning engineer and got usable results with an SM57. 1 month later I bought the Beta 52 which was an improvement. Then few months later picked up the D112. Is was the easiest and quickest for me to get a good sound from, but remember, I had spent 4-6 months screwing with the 57 and 52.

They will all work. They will all take a little time getting used to.

Use your ears, take your time, try all the ideas you read here, then throw them out and try your own ideas. You will get a great sound!

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

You're the man, Jim. Thanks.

I think I'm sold on the D112 just because of its reputation. I also am favoring the Audix i5 over the 57.... but I'll use the 58 for now, see what I can get out of it.

-Chris

Dude, I am excited for you. You will learn more from setting them up and making mistakes than any other way. Read the Recorderman thing and these two also:

http://mercenary.com/fltaabsmandh.html

http://mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html

Start recording! Good Luck.

[themixtape]

Would love to start, but I'm at work... not really working....... haha.

Ok... one final question.... compressor? Needed? (I'm thinking yes)...

Don't have a ton to drop, after buying a D112.... a good compressor/limiter/gate under $200, $150 even?

Originally Posted by jdier

Dude, I am excited for you. You will learn more from setting them up and making mistakes than any other way. Read the Recorderman thing and these two also:

http://mercenary.com/fltaabsmandh.html

http://mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html

Start recording! Good Luck.

[nathanvacha]

don't know if someone said it already, this thread seems to be awefully popular... but fuuck d112 and all those "kick" mics that don't usually work for anything else. on the cheap, 421 is hap'nin. if you're gonna have a limited mic collection, it's always been my theory to buy mics you can use for other applications, too, if you should happen to need to.

[Tommy Fobia]

Another vote for the i5 on the snare!

The biggest plus for me is the fact that it has a METAL grille cap on the end, as opposed to the cheap brittle plastic thing that the 57 has.
If a drummer with bad co-ordination whacks the end of your 57, it tends to shatter. The i5 is more likely to take a chunk out of his stick. It doesn't sound too far removed from the 57, its a little less boxy to my ears though.

[themixtape]

i do agree with that. absolutely. who makes the 421, and is it as easy to use as the D112?

i don't like buying mics that only work for a certain thing, either... which is why the SM57 got so popular in the first place.

i'll check the price on the 421... i'm guessing sennheiser makes it? sounds like a senn model number.

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

don't know if someone said it already, this thread seems to be awefully popular... but fuuck d112 and all those "kick" mics that don't usually work for anything else. on the cheap, 421 is hap'nin. if you're gonna have a limited mic collection, it's always been my theory to buy mics you can use for other applications, too, if you should happen to need to.

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Would love to start, but I'm at work... not really working....... haha.

Ok... one final question.... compressor? Needed? (I'm thinking yes)...

Don't have a ton to drop, after buying a D112.... a good compressor/limiter/gate under $200, $150 even?

Very personal opinion. I say not needed but nice to have. Good unit in your price range, only one choice: FMR RNC. A proven performer.

You can only use it on one source at a time though, so you will either need to use it on kick or snare or buy another one to use them on overheads.

I have a really crappy Nady 5000 stereo compressor that I used primarily as a limiter on overheads. If you are looking for something like that, I would gladly sell you mine for $65 bucks shipped. Again, it is not a compressor that you will reach for to give you "THAT SOUND" or any sound for that matter. It is a compressor that might be useful if you only have 2-3 takes to get a kit track and you want to make 100% sure you do not have an over. The last two times I used it I had it set so it only engaged once or twice over the course of tracking 12-13 songs. It did the trick for me but I have since purchased 3 RNC's which I prefer.

But back to your question... I think you do not NEED a compressor.

Regarding the Senns 421. Another great choice. I do not think you would regret buying it instead of the D112.

[themixtape]

Hey Tommy, I wouldn't consider the MD-421 by Sennheiser a mic that can be obtained "on the cheap." Haha. I see it goes for around $400 on ebay. Nice-looking mic, but I'm not rich, not even close.

The AKG D112 at $135 used seems to be ideal, definitely in my price range. But I will keep the 421 in mind, for future, if and when I can even afford to drop over $300 on one microphone.

Originally Posted by Tommy Fobia

Another vote for the i5 on the snare!

The biggest plus for me is the fact that it has a METAL grille cap on the end, as opposed to the cheap brittle plastic thing that the 57 has.
If a drummer with bad co-ordination whacks the end of your 57, it tends to shatter. The i5 is more likely to take a chunk out of his stick. It doesn't sound too far removed from the 57, its a little less boxy to my ears though.

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Hey Tommy, I wouldn't consider the MD-421 by Sennheiser a mic that can be obtained "on the cheap." Haha. I see it goes for around $400 on ebay. Nice-looking mic, but I'm not rich, not even close.

The AKG D112 at $135 used seems to be ideal, definitely in my price range. But I will keep the 421 in mind, for future, if and when I can even afford to drop over $300 on one microphone.

You can get them for less than that. Search like this on ebay:

(md421, 421) sennheiser

You should be able to get a decent one for about $200 - $225. Make sure you get the clip.

Here are links to some completed auctions. Be patient.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SENNHEISER-MD421...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sennheiser-MD421...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sennheiser-MD421...QQcmdZViewItem

[drumur1]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Ok... do you think these mics (I'm leaning toward the Audix D2).... would be good for indie rock/shoegazey stuff, with the occasional Jimmy Eat World-ish melodic rock sound?

The Beta 52 is 50/50... some people rave, some rant.... Audix seems high marks all around.... D112 I've read is a bit "muddy"......

I'm so torn! haha.

I am a drummer...I originally bought the audix kick mic(I think it was a D-6)but took it back and got the Beta-52. It's a killer Kick drum mic...It has a 400hz cut and a 4k boost...exactly what I would want to hear.
I love that kick mic.

[themixtape]

yeah, it seems like a nice compressor... good price, too.

My question is though... when you're using compressors in miking drums (again, not "necessary" like you said)... I'm guessing it's better to go like this in the chain?:

mic - compressor - mixer - computer (Thus, the need for four compressors to match my four mics)...

and not:

mic - mixer - (compressor in aux/send return) - computer

My good friend Joel suggested to not use aux sends and returns with a mixer especially when it comes to preamps and stuff... I take his word (he knows a LOT), but cost-wise... I wish I could!!!

Any way I could possibly buy a baby mixer and plug all 4 drum mics into that, then output from the mixer to the RNC then to the computer? Or would this sound like crap?

-Chris

Originally Posted by jdier

Very personal opinion. I say not needed but nice to have. Good unit in your price range, only one choice: FMR RNC. A proven performer.

You can only use it on one source at a time though, so you will either need to use it on kick or snare or buy another one to use them on overheads.

I have a really crappy Nady 5000 stereo compressor that I used primarily as a limiter on overheads. If you are looking for something like that, I would gladly sell you mine for $65 bucks shipped. Again, it is not a compressor that you will reach for to give you "THAT SOUND" or any sound for that matter. It is a compressor that might be useful if you only have 2-3 takes to get a kit track and you want to make 100% sure you do not have an over. The last two times I used it I had it set so it only engaged once or twice over the course of tracking 12-13 songs. It did the trick for me but I have since purchased 3 RNC's which I prefer.

But back to your question... I think you do not NEED a compressor.

Regarding the Senns 421. Another great choice. I do not think you would regret buying it instead of the D112.

[themixtape]

Since I know so little about the way frequencies affect the sound (especially without hearing it)... can you give me some audio examples of your Beta 52, and what kind of kick you have it inside of? What kind of music are you making that makes the Beta 52 such an ideal choice for you?

I do indie/alternative rock, mostly mellow... like Ida, American Analog Set, Red House Painters, and occasionally I like to rock out some Jimmy Eat World-ish stuff.

-Chris

Originally Posted by drumur1

I am a drummer...I originally bought the audix kick mic(I think it was a D-6)but took it back and got the Beta-52. It's a killer Kick drum mic...It has a 400hz cut and a 4k boost...exactly what I would want to hear.
I love that kick mic.

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

yeah, it seems like a nice compressor... good price, too.

My question is though... when you're using compressors in miking drums (again, not "necessary" like you said)... I'm guessing it's better to go like this in the chain?:

mic - compressor - mixer - computer (Thus, the need for four compressors to match my four mics)...

and not:

mic - mixer - (compressor in aux/send return) - computer

My good friend Joel suggested to not use aux sends and returns with a mixer especially when it comes to preamps and stuff... I take his word (he knows a LOT), but cost-wise... I wish I could!!!

Any way I could possibly buy a baby mixer and plug all 4 drum mics into that, then output from the mixer to the RNC then to the computer? Or would this sound like crap?

-Chris

You can do whatever you want. What you need to do is figure out why you want to use a compressor. I can only tell you why I use it which is as a limiter to save a track that would have an over if I did not have it. When I track drums I typically have to get a lot done in a little time. I have been lucky to work with primarily great drummers so I have had some success, but I like having the compressor there as a limiter on the overheads just in case he really wacks something good.

Again, I think you can go without.

Personally I would not mix all of the drums into one stereo mix and run through the RNC. It serves no purpose. You will be able to do the same with software compressors in the computer later if you need it. But who knows. Maybe you try it that way and you stumble upon a kick ass signature drum sound. Weirder thing have happened.

[jdier]

Originally Posted by themixtape

Since I know so little about the way frequencies affect the sound (especially without hearing it)... can you give me some audio examples of your Beta 52, and what kind of kick you have it inside of? What kind of music are you making that makes the Beta 52 such an ideal choice for you?

I do indie/alternative rock, mostly mellow... like Ida, American Analog Set, Red House Painters, and occasionally I like to rock out some Jimmy Eat World-ish stuff.

-Chris

Chris, These examples are not perfect and some are not done but check this stuff out:

Everything on here is Beta 52:
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/...Final+Ride.htm

The main guy wanted an old fashioned country sound so these are not the best for hearing drums, but I think you can hear the drums best on these songs:
10. Close Up The Honky Tonks
11. So It Seems
12. Tonight Will Be Fine

I believe for this stuff I had the Beta 52 sitting right in the middle of the kick pointed a little off the spot where the beater hits.

My personal stuff is at www.soundclick.com/drspark and the songs that I would point you to are:

Stuck in Moline (This is a D112 on Kick)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=1089375&q=hi

Virginia (This is a Beta 52 on kick)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=1089427&q=hi

Miss Holly Wood (This is a blend of both on kick)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=1088971&q=hi

If I am remembering correctly I have the D112 inside the kick pointing off axis at the back of the head where the beater hits and the Beat 52 is flush with the port hold cut in the resonant head.

Remember that I could get drastically different sounds by moving either mic around so these are NOT fair comparisons.

Also note that these are two different drummers with two different kits. The Dan Whitaker country stuff was a small swingerland kit and the Dr. Spark stuff was a DW kit of some type.

All these files are mp3's that have been converted and sound kinda crappy. The country stuff has been mastered then converted. My stuff is not even done with mixing yet.

Hope this helps.

D112, Beta 52, Senn 421. You will be happy with any of these once you have them in your hands and can start learning how to apply them.

Later.

[themixtape]

Again, Jim... thank you so much for your incredible input.

I'm stickin' with my instinct-- the 112.



I'll check out all this audio when I get home today. Thanks again bro. I'll keep you posted on my progress once I get all the mics.

-Chris

Originally Posted by jdier

Chris, These examples are not perfect and some are not done but check this stuff out:

Everything on here is Beta 52:
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/...Final+Ride.htm

The main guy wanted an old fashioned country sound so these are not the best for hearing drums, but I think you can hear the drums best on these songs:
10. Close Up The Honky Tonks
11. So It Seems
12. Tonight Will Be Fine

I believe for this stuff I had the Beta 52 sitting right in the middle of the kick pointed a little off the spot where the beater hits.

My personal stuff is at www.soundclick.com/drspark and the songs that I would point you to are:

Stuck in Moline (This is a D112 on Kick)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=1089375&q=hi

Virginia (This is a Beta 52 on kick)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=1089427&q=hi

Miss Holly Wood (This is a blend of both on kick)
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=1088971&q=hi

If I am remembering correctly I have the D112 inside the kick pointing off axis at the back of the head where the beater hits and the Beat 52 is flush with the port hold cut in the resonant head.

Remember that I could get drastically different sounds by moving either mic around so these are NOT fair comparisons.

Also note that these are two different drummers with two different kits. The Dan Whitaker country stuff was a small swingerland kit and the Dr. Spark stuff was a DW kit of some type.

All these files are mp3's that have been converted and sound kinda crappy. The country stuff has been mastered then converted. My stuff is not even done with mixing yet.

Hope this helps.

D112, Beta 52, Senn 421. You will be happy with any of these once you have them in your hands and can start learning how to apply them.

Later.

[themixtape]

ALL of you have been a huge, huge help.

I would buy ALL the drum mics if I had the money. But right now, I think I'm going with:

AKG D112 (Beta 52 a close second, Audix D6 in third place, Senn and EV... hell, who knows).

Audix i5 for a snare (but using my SM58 for now)

and of course, I already picked up the Rode NT5 pair for overheads.

THANKS AGAIN, EVERYONE!

[Sara_tonin]

Think you made a good choice, even though for some reason I'm a fan of the CAD
After reading this post I think I'd like to try the i5 on the snare as well now...
Good luck!

[treymonfauntre]

Originally Posted by Sara_tonin

Think you made a good choice, even though for some reason I'm a fan of the CAD
After reading this post I think I'd like to try the i5 on the snare as well now...
Good luck!

i use that cad mic too.. can't complain, although i usually record a few multi-mic kick samples before each session and blend them in under it..