Cheap Ribbons?

[Michael_Joly]

The Alctron-manufactured HRM-8B sold as the Apex 205 (et al) for $99 from a number of on-line retailers (not me) is a great deal. Works pretty well right out of the box and can be improved if you're experimental. This mic seems to have better HF response than its bigger and earlier brother.

Lately I've been putting Lundahl transformers in them in addition to the acoustical / mechanical mods I've written about. The Lundahl gets rid of the stock transformer-induced midrange peakiness, resolves harmonic chordal information better and improves HF transient response detail.

I did a full mod on one yesterday and compared it with my Coles 4038. The fully modifed 205 was every bit as good as the Coles and then some. The Coles has a very flat and extended HF response (unusual for a mic of its age), the modded 205 matched it nicely. Midrange was as smooth also. The deep bass on the modded 205 was better than the 4038 but that is to be expected when all the acoustic filtering is removed during mods.

This small body mic has other benefits - has less mechanical resonance than its big bodied brother and is easier to place.

[cody brown]

Originally Posted by celticrogues

Hey Dan,
I got a pair of the Cascade Fathead ribbons for Christmas - they are about $150 ea like the nadys.
I like them a lot so far - I've only tried them on voice and acoustic guitar so far but I am a fan. They are pretty rich and warm sounding. I am going to be doing elect guit and hopefully drums soon so Ill let you know how that goes. And I'll have them up at school if you want to hear them.
Cheers,
-Mike Fowler

I got the Fathead II in December and have used them up against a Coles 4038 and an RCA BK5. The Fathead is in the ballpark, but seems to have a bit more bite to me.
Pretty cool for a mic that you don't care about spilling beer on.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

The Alctron-manufactured HRM-8B sold as the Apex 205 (et al) for $99 from a number of on-line retailers (not me) is a great deal. Works pretty well right out of the box and can be improved if you're experimental. This mic seems to have better HF response than its bigger and earlier brother.

Hi Mike!

I'm assuming you are comparing to the Apex 210. Unless we're talking about an inconsistency among the same models I would tend to disagree about the 210 having less HF response than the 205. On a level of clarity right out of the box I would pick the 210 over the 205 for probably anything, having compared the two more than once. The 210 also has a somewhat less woofy bottom in my experience, better midrange detail, etc.

Again, it could be a consistency issue although I've compared more than once. I'm also not commenting on any modded versions, just out of the box.

My $0.02

War

[stump]

I would check out the Peluso R14

[sekim]

ehe...I am now convinced I want to try a PR40 on acoustic guitar!

[Crash]

Originally Posted by cody brown

I got the Fathead II in December and have used them up against a Coles 4038 and an RCA BK5. The Fathead is in the ballpark, but seems to have a bit more bite to me.
Pretty cool for a mic that you don't care about spilling beer on.

I really have been intrigued by these mics and came really close to getting a pair but then a deal I couldn't pass up presented itself (Peavey/AMR VMP-2 and an AKG 414 B/ULS for $750.00) so I had to pass on the Fatheads. I see now that there is a version of these with a Lundahl transformer, with an accompanying price hike to $300.00 per. I would love to hear some clips of these, other than what is on the Cascade website.

[bmsander]

does anyone here ever use the oktava ml-52? This is my first ribbon, and I'm amazed at the low end this thing produces. Definitely like it on drum room and guitar cabs.

How does the 52 compare to the 53 and some of these other mics?

[warhead]

Not having done a side by side with the ML52 / ML53 yet, I have used them at different times. The ML53 is tuned higher and therefore sounds more open up top by comparison, and also less woofy on the bottom end.

War

[SRR]

http://mysite.verizon.net/resq6asf/s...lme1219mp3.mp3

Those vocals are thru Shiny Box 23 unmodded then thru a AEA TRP and a ART PRO VLA. Backing music is a accompanying CD trax. Vocals may seem forward, more so in the beginning, but that is what we intended, its my wife singing.

Before the TRP, the mic was good, but not as smooth and just plain not as full sounding. The hi input impedance of the TRP is supposedly there to get rid of low resonants of ribbons, which either I am dreaming it up, or it did do just that.

I love the combination, might even love a modded mic better, till I buy one I am happy.

[TheNatas]

is it worth it to buy the Lundahl transformer for the fathead and put it in myself? does anyone have experience doing this? is it a straight change or are there other parts to consider?

-Jordan

[Norman Lindsey]

I am now convinced I want to try a PR40 on acoustic guitar!

PR40 sounds great on acoustic guitar. you'll need plenty of clean gain to get it right up there.

[pmdundee]

War,

Any word on the Avant mics yet?



Everyone else,

I am also interested in information concerning transformer upgrades in Cascade mics. Anyone try a Cinemag? How does the mic sound after the upgrade? I think I read once that you need to buy the Fathead II to fit the xformer in there--true?

Thanks
Eric

[drumzealot]

Originally Posted by SRR

http://mysite.verizon.net/resq6asf/s...lme1219mp3.mp3

Those vocals are thru Shiny Box 23 unmodded then thru a AEA TRP and a ART PRO VLA. Backing music is a accompanying CD trax. Vocals may seem forward, more so in the beginning, but that is what we intended, its my wife singing.

Before the TRP, the mic was good, but not as smooth and just plain not as full sounding. The hi input impedance of the TRP is supposedly there to get rid of low resonants of ribbons, which either I am dreaming it up, or it did do just that.

I love the combination, might even love a modded mic better, till I buy one I am happy.

Damn, considering its cost, this mic sounds pretty good! There seems to be some "boxiness" in the MFs.

[SRR]

Originally Posted by drumzealot

Damn, considering its cost, this mic sounds pretty good! There seems to be some "boxiness" in the MFs.

I would have to go back and see what EQ I added, but I might have added some 3K with a Pultec UAD-1, that might be what you are hearing, maybe not...this might be one of the tracks I left the eq alone. I know for tracking her, I used the HPF on the AEA TRP, but that has nothing to do with what you are saying... . Oh, I did use a desser, Reapers Reacomp set up to de-S, 8K or so, my wife has a real problem in that reign.

I went thru a lot of mics to get to this one, where I actually really liked what I was getting, tried a EV N/D 767a, AT3035, AT4033, MXL V69ME, then finally picked up this Shiny Box 23 for $165. I think it sounds good, and I guess that is all that matters, oh and my wife loves singing into, so I guess that matters even more.

And if I need a brighter tone, I can rotate the mic 180 degrees, as the back side of the figure 8 is pretty bright for a ribbon.

[davey boy]

Wanted to chime in on the cheap ribbon thing. I bought a Nady rsm-2 last year and really wasn't impressed. Then I started using it "for real". Recorded clarinet and it was perfect. Got rid of all the air hiss, Beat out a modded 414. I've been using it on E guitar for a little while now and absolutely love it!! I did take out some of the filters. It's been great on marshall cab stuff. Full and chunky, not nasally or harsh. It also works great on combo amps, giving them some nice heft. I went from " I should just ditch this thing", to "this mic is a definite keeper." Anyway, I've been debating about blowing the wad on a royer or getting some cheap apex's and doing the self mod thing (and don't worry, still blowing the wad on the royer). Just found some Apex's for under $90 online somewhere so was debating about getting 2 for stereo use. Good stuff.

[JockeSkog]

How about this Royer clone? Sells in Sweden for about $250

[CZECH Music]

Originally Posted by worm

i heard a sontronics sigma through a chandler tg2 once and it sounded really nice. had a kinda rustic vibe to it.

im considering getting one.

Anyone know who sells the Sigma in the U.S ?

Anyone heard the Electro Harmoniz ribbon yet ?

http://www.ehx.com/ehx2/Default.asp?...-R1_Ribbon_Mic

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Arsene

this one looks pretty royerish too, don't you think?

That must be the body that John Peluso uses for his new R 14? ribon mic. Wonder how that Chinese one sounds? Any info?

[emkay]

Originally Posted by stump

I would check out the Peluso R14

That's a beautiful family portrait.

[metaldog]

OK, so I've read all the posts here that I can find regarding ribbon mics and I've been scouring the web for as much info as possible on the Sontronics Sigma.

There's not much on it apart from the same paragraph that is on the sontronics website repeated in every online store and magazine review that comes up in the search engines.

Does anyone here have any experience of this mic, which they would like to share? I'm in the market for a ribbon for my acoustic guitar primarily, but also as a possible choice for a vocal mic.

It's between the Sigma (as long as I can get more info on it) or a Beyer M160 although I like the idea of an active ribbon, which the sigma is.

I would love to hear any sound samples of this mic on a dreadnaught too if anyone has something they can post.

Cheers.

[Crash]

Email Freddy, He was supposed to have ordered one a while back.

http://www.vocomotion.com/staff.phtml

He is also on here as Vocomation. I am interested to hear someones opinion who has used one.

[Michael_Joly]

Since this is the Cheap Ribbon mic thread and I've been a proponent of the Apex 205 as a great value mic, I wanted to toss out this caveat - about 25% of the Alctron ribbon mics I've seen have ribbons that are way to slack in the gap.

When vertical, the ribbon does a sort of double bow in the gap because it is too long. The ribbon can be heard to be scraping against one of the magnets when the mic is moved back and forth in the air. When held horizontally, the ribbon bows almost completely out of the gap in the center. This would cause non-linear response and low output.

Fixing this problem is straightforward but delicate. One or both of the ribbon clamps must be loosened and removed. Then the ribbon pried gently away from the lower clamp surface. Occasionally the ribbon is fused to the clamp surface and cannot be moved without tearing. In this case the last resort is to hope the other end of the ribbon can be freed from the clamp and pulled taught.

This problem is not visible with the stock headbasket mesh and inner waffle plate installed. But it is worth disassembling the mic to inspect the ribbon placement and tension to make sure you're getting all the response the mic is capable of.

[yhomas]

Originally Posted by CrankyRayHanky

I have that royer clone, the RM3
...
I sent the mic to my mod guy, who said he was unable to upgrade due to size descrepencies; however, he did note that the mic was an exact design of the royer 121 and was astounded as to how they could get away with it.

Considering that the basic design of the Royer 121 was done in the early 1960's in the form of the B&O BM3 ( http://www.beoworld.co.uk/microphones1.htm ), I don't think we really have much room to criticize the Chinese on this one.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Since this is the Cheap Ribbon mic thread and I've been a proponent of the Apex 205 as a great value mic, I wanted to toss out this caveat - about 25% of the Alctron ribbon mics I've seen have ribbons that are way to slack in the gap.

When vertical, the ribbon does a sort of double bow in the gap because it is too long. The ribbon can be heard to be scraping against one of the magnets when the mic is moved back and forth in the air. When held horizontally, the ribbon bows almost completely out of the gap in the center. This would cause non-linear response and low output.

Fixing this problem is straightforward but delicate. One or both of the ribbon clamps must be loosened and removed. Then the ribbon pried gently away from the lower clamp surface. Occasionally the ribbon is fused to the clamp surface and cannot be moved without tearing. In this case the last resort is to hope the other end of the ribbon can be freed from the clamp and pulled taught.

This problem is not visible with the stock headbasket mesh and inner waffle plate installed. But it is worth disassembling the mic to inspect the ribbon placement and tension to make sure you're getting all the response the mic is capable of.

Good point, Michael. I found this problem in my HRM10, and I was able to fix it myself, but I'm not sure I'd recommend anyone else try it unless they were quite willing to treat the mic as an experiment - the ribbon is quite fragile.

If you are going to try it yourself, be sure to completely remove the plate that holds the ribbon in place. Don't just loosen it - you WILL tear the ribbon. Once it's removed, you can use the tip of a jewelers screwdriver to gently lift the end of the ribbon from its place.

Now one end of the ribbon is loose, and you need to refasten it - with appropriate tension. There is no way to simply put it back and retighten the plate. So instead, take a QTip soaked with alcohol (pure isopropyl, not "rubbing alcohol") and wet the place where the ribbon needs to attach. Then, using the same QTip, place the end of the ribbon back in place. The wetness (surface tension) of the alcohol will be enough to hold the ribbon in place while you refasten the plate that will hold it permanantly.

Be careful to make sure that it is adjusted properly. The ribbon should be parallel to the magnet assembly all the way up and down, and it should sit nicely in the gap without touching either side. It should be tensioned loosely, but not loosely enough to let it fall out of the gap when the mic is horizontal. There should still be plenty of corrugation visible in the ribbon.

When you've got it right, be sure to store the mic vertically so you don't run into this problem again.

[surfonica]

There's an ebay auction for $9.95 DIY plans on how to build your own ribbon mike:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIY-Ribbon-Micro...QQcmdZViewItem

[ribbongibbon]

There's an ebay auction for $9.95 DIY plans on how to build your own ribbon mike:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIY-Ribbon-Micro...QQcmdZViewItem

This tutorial was available as free download for a moment... The author just switched to paid download because no one sent him any money for support (I'm guilty...)

This is a great tutorial, with very detailed step-by-step instructions on how to build a ribbon microphone with links to shops on the net where you can find the parts.
Really worth the price IMO. I would have given him money if I wasn't just so broke...

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

Good point, Michael. I found this problem in my HRM10, and I was able to fix it myself, but I'm not sure I'd recommend anyone else try it unless they were quite willing to treat the mic as an experiment - the ribbon is quite fragile.

If you are going to try it yourself, be sure to completely remove the plate that holds the ribbon in place. Don't just loosen it - you WILL tear the ribbon. Once it's removed, you can use the tip of a jewelers screwdriver to gently lift the end of the ribbon from its place.

Now one end of the ribbon is loose, and you need to refasten it - with appropriate tension. There is no way to simply put it back and retighten the plate. So instead, take a QTip soaked with alcohol (pure isopropyl, not "rubbing alcohol") and wet the place where the ribbon needs to attach. Then, using the same QTip, place the end of the ribbon back in place. The wetness (surface tension) of the alcohol will be enough to hold the ribbon in place while you refasten the plate that will hold it permanantly.

Be careful to make sure that it is adjusted properly. The ribbon should be parallel to the magnet assembly all the way up and down, and it should sit nicely in the gap without touching either side. It should be tensioned loosely, but not loosely enough to let it fall out of the gap when the mic is horizontal. There should still be plenty of corrugation visible in the ribbon.

When you've got it right, be sure to store the mic vertically so you don't run into this problem again.

Here's a picture of the ribbon sag problem below:

You can see the ribbon sagging out of the magnetic gap like a little footbridge. I'm stumped why I've seen a number of these mics - new, never out of the box, with this sagging ribbon problem. It is just as easy to get the ribbon tension right at the factory as it is to install a ribbon with sag. So I don't think this is a factory assembly problem.

This ribbon motor is from a mic that was returned to me for repair. The ribbon was perfect when it left my shop after modification but developed a sag sometime between leaving my shop and being put to use by the client ( who rightly complained of low output).

My latest theory is that the shipping parcel may have been dropped - even though the mass of the ribbon is small, the inertia aquired from the fall may have caused the center portion of the ribbon to continue to travel once it hit the floor. Any other ideas?

By the way, this problem can not be seen with the stock, three-layer headbasket in place. The headbasket has to be removed to inspect the ribbon tension.

[dkelley]

hey, just wanted to mention, kind of off topic but directly to do with this thread's responses.... I believe that the original poster said he had access to an rca bk-5a... but then many people replied about the inexpensive chinese ribbons to buy so he could learn about ribbon mics. I think if you're able to use a bk-5a then you're already using one of the best mics ever made, one of the best ribbon mics ever created, so the chinese mics are going to be quite different, and not really so much a learning experience aside from the figure 8 pattern they have (bk-5a is actually unidirectional, fairly rare for a ribbon). Of course, I could be misinterpreting what the original poster was meaning about having access to a bk5...

I know this is a fairly long running thread, but I thought I'd mention here that people should make sure they read the original post clearly before starting another ribbon thread about apex 205s (and their mods) versus fatheads versus 121s versus classic rca ribbons.

That being said, I think the great info from the ribbon repairman himself here about apex 205s and ribbon sags is very interesting, I learned a lot from that. It's just funny to watch how the very first 3 or 4 posts ignored his comment about having access to a great mic like a bk-5.

I guess I'm in a funny mood, sorry to bring it up! No harm meant!

Cheers,
Don

[diamondjim]

Ribbon Microphones - Cascade Microphones

Check them out, I have the Victor ribbon and love it for bass. Good preamp of course helps. I use the ADL 600. Plan on getting an AEA TRP and another ribbon.

diamondjim
Barn Jazz Home

[redddog]

I just got the Fathead IIs and they are extremely well built. I'll hear them tonight.