Cellulose for Bass Trap

[bluesman714]

I have done several searches, but noone has addressed using cellulose insulation as a bass trap......so here goes.
I have been looking at Cellulose insulation at my local Home Depot. This is the stuff that you are supposed to blow in your attic or walls. When purchased, it comes in blocks, 24" x 15" x 12" weighing about 20+ lbs shrink wrapped in thin plastic, easily stackable. How well will these work stacked in corners for bass traps? The cellulose costs a little under $10 per block, so $50.00 would treat one corner with a 10 foot ceiling. I would probably cover the blocks with fabric.
I did read a thread which mentioned using Armstrong 420 celing tiles & removing the textured plastic from the tile....these are available, but pretty expensive....$75 + tax would yield two 4' x 2' x 4" traps.
OC 703/5 is not available in my area.
Im just trying to come up with the best solution using what is available.

thanks

[Musiclab]

sure it is your just looking in the wrong place, you need to go to an Insulation supply house. Also OC is not the only company that makes this stuff. Knauf does the call it insulation board and comes in different densitys and thickness. You're not going to find this at Home depot

[bluesman714]

Thanks for the response, but my question is about cellulose. I have checked at both of the insulation supply houses is my area, they do not stock 703 or 705. They will be happy to order it, if I commit to a 1/2 truck load order. They also do not wish to do business with the public, contractors only. Both companies say that they have had some calls from local recording studios but the requested quantities are too low for them to consider stocking the product. So, I am on a budget & looking at alternates. The cellulose seems like a reasonable alternative. It is loose, so it could never be removed from the block packaging, but thats ok, it will actually make it pretty easy to stack in corners.
Opinions?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by bluesman714

I have been looking at Cellulose insulation at my local Home Depot. This is the stuff that you are supposed to blow in your attic or walls ... How well will these work stacked in corners for bass traps?

The only two ways to know are:

1) Ask the manufacturer if they have absorption data.

2) Test it yourself and see how it compares to fiberglass.

My gut feel is that stuff is probably useful, but I doubt it's better than fluffy fiberglass. So you might as well just use fluffy fiberglass. If you squish it down to be thinner it will be more like rigid fiberglass. Note: squish is a technical acoustics term.

--Ethan

PS: I got your PM, though I would have seen this post and replied here anyway.

[shangoe]

i used cellulose slabs in my vocal booth and my controlroom acustic, watch this tread with photos...

my insprirations for DIY basstrap builders


all i can say is i am 200% satisfied with it, i used 10cm slabs in my booth there is absolutly no bass buildup or other issues....great absorbtion in the controllroom too.

i dont know if this company sell the stuff in the usa, but here you can take a look, its called FlexCL...

http://www.homatherm.org/index.php?id=139&L=4

[Scott R. Foster]

Originally Posted by bluesman714

Thanks for the response, but my question is about cellulose. I have checked at both of the insulation supply houses is my area, they do not stock 703 or 705. They will be happy to order it, if I commit to a 1/2 truck load order. They also do not wish to do business with the public, contractors only. Both companies say that they have had some calls from local recording studios but the requested quantities are too low for them to consider stocking the product. So, I am on a budget & looking at alternates. The cellulose seems like a reasonable alternative. It is loose, so it could never be removed from the block packaging, but thats ok, it will actually make it pretty easy to stack in corners.
Opinions?

That stuff Shangoe links looks pretty good, I bet it works just just as good as he says.

But I don't think the bales of paper chips at Ho' Dee Po are going to work. As I recall they pretty much suck all the air out of it in packaging so its pretty much a solid block.

Try and find 3lbs. fiberglass boards at one these outlets:

http://www.spi-co.com/servicecenterdirectory.cfm

or these guys:

http://www.lwsupply.com/centerloc/4_0_centerloc.asp

or whoever the heck sells commercial insulation in your area - or a contractor that buys from that supplier [pay him a few bucks to buy a few boxes for you at wholesale].

As a last gasp use two layers of high density unfaced R38 [two layers = 20.5" thick] fluffed out and mounted in a light timber frame - if you can spare the space it should work well for corner bass traps.

http://www.owenscorning.com/around/i...ighdensity.asp

or check out our web site and we'll sell you some [but shipping costs make this an expensive option for most folks - shopping local pays].

[Bassmankr]

Saw just the other day on one of the Public television home how-to shows a form of cellose sprayed insulation that was called "Nu-Wool". Looked like it just had a binder added and they used some water sprayed with it so it would stick in vertical walls and overhead. After the cavity was sprayed then they had to take a scraper and get rid of the excess down to the level of the wood studs/joists. The interesting part of the show was the insulation guy did a litle demo on how good it was for sound deadning by placing a beeping fire alarm in a canister lined on all sides with standard 3 1/2" fiberglass (typical thickness found in a wall). The alarm could be heard very clearly. Then he moved the still beeping alarm into a canister lined on all sides with the 3 1/2' Nu-Wool, and there was no sound leakage. I know this demo had more to do with density of the material than anything else but I think it's worth looking into.

Something you could use from the Home Depot to try would be the 4' x 8' x 1/2" sheets of fiberboard sheathing to cut up or use under drywall. That is fairly dense and roughly the same thing as the solid ceiling tiles but alot cheaper, around $6 a sheet.

Maybe someone else know how good these materials are for a studio application as that Nu-Wool looked like a nice option for new construction or a home studio buildout. One thing to be aware of with cellose is that over time the chemicals they add to it to make it fire resistant (boric acid I think) lose their effect and the risk of fire goes up (its just chopped up paper). The loose stuff that is blown in attics settles quite a bit too, hopefully the binder they use keeps this stuff together for a long time.

[bluesman714]

I decided to take the plunge & try some Cellulose to see how it would work for myself. I went to Lowes & bought 10 packages of cellulose for about $100.00. I have a vaulted ceiling in my mix room. I put 9 packages about 12" from the peak of the ceiling, directly over my mixing area & put one package under my mixing desk. The difference was immediately noticible. Even my perception of my own voice was different, it sounded much closer & dryer. I listenned to a few of my old mixes & mixed a couple of new songs to compare. So far I have only listenned in the car, which has a subwoofer & will quickly reveal an out of control low end. The mix sounded just right!!! Firm & solid with just enough lows, very close to what I was hearing on my monitors. I was able to do a better EQ on the kick, bass guitar sounded effortless....no woofing, booming maddness at all. I can already say that this small step has made a hugh improvement in the overall quality of my recordings. I will be mixing a lot over the next couple of weeks & listenning on as many systems as possible. I will post any new developments, but for now, Im a happy man.
By the way, these blocks are firm, but somewhat squishy, not a completely solid block. I also knew that, if I didn't think there was any appreciable difference using the Cellulose, as long as the bags remained unbroken & I kept my receipt, I could return the lot to Lowes for a full refund. For a hundred dollars, I am delighted with the results.
I do realize that there are better products available & I will continue to do everything I can to improve my equipment & my listening environment. I'm not finished by a long shot, but this was a very afordable quick fix & it will certainly beat the Hell out of no treatment, until the real thing comes along. Many Thanks to all who responded.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by bluesman714

I decided to take the plunge & try some Cellulose to see how it would work for myself ... Im a happy man.

There you go - excellent!

--Ethan

[Scott R. Foster]

By the way, these blocks are firm, but somewhat squishy, not a completely solid block.

Schweet!



I didn't think it work... but I'm glad it did.

[Disjointed]

my plan has been to...

1. take a pre framed panel.. (1x6's maybe?) with fabric already on one side....

2. call a local insulation company and arrange for them to spray it on the floor at a job site they are already spraying it at..

3. they fill it ,you fabric the back .. or maybe some 1/4" ply (depending on what youre going for)

.. i imagine the charge would be minimal, since they already are using their equipment.. most of them charge by the amount of product.. so that would be small as well..

there ya go some nice enviro-friendly panels (i hate fiberglass it is the devil)..

or if you really need some 703 try these sites....
http://www.acoustimac.com/products.asp
http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--SA...f-6--1006.html

they are the cheapest ive seen ..
gl

[bluesman714]

Just a follow up post. Its been a couple of weeks & I have now mixed 12 songs since adding the Cellulose insulation as Bass Traps in my mixing room. The difference is astounding! My mixes are translating well everywhere. I have been playing them on small home systems, car systems, large home systems & small to very large commercial PA systems.
All sounded great! Good balance, tight hard hitting kick, smoothe easily definable bass with absolutely no booming muddiness!!!
This was definately THE answer for me & my budget. I can now play my mixes along side commercial CDs without fear. My mixes are sounding better than ever, no muffled booming low end!!!!!!! Guitars can now sparkle & vocals are much easier to place & understand. Im using less effects & liking it more. I have found that I now need compression only on the drum OH, Bass & Vocal. I guess bassically what I am saying is that I can hear what's going on in the mix for the first time & I'm liking what I am hearing!

I've spent lots of money on microphones, compressors & pre's, upgrading my recording rig in the past year, but nothing I have done has made such a dramatic audible difference in my finished product as installing these Cellulose blocks @ a total cost of about $100.00.

If blocks of Cellulose insulation can make this kind of difference, I can't imagine what improvement proper Bass Traps might offer.......but I intend to find out as soon as my finances allow for the upgrade.

Thank you very much to Ethan, Glenn & all who responded!

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by bluesman714

All sounded great! Good balance, tight hard hitting kick, smoothe easily definable bass with absolutely no booming muddiness!!! This was definately THE answer for me & my budget. I can now play my mixes along side commercial CDs without fear. My mixes are sounding better than ever, no muffled booming low end!!!!!!! Guitars can now sparkle & vocals are much easier to place & understand. Im using less effects & liking it more.

Oh goody, another convert. Testify, brother!

--Ethan

[Todd24]

I used fluffy glass compressed into wire "cages" I made out of welded wire fencing. I covered these with moving blankets, using spray glue.

I never could get mixes to translate myself. $70 later......

You must trap the bass!

[EquabileStudios]

A few questions.

1. i can't seem to find what the density of oc703 is.

2. Looking at other posts in this thread, would R38 be a good product to use for bass traps? Would it need to be compressed?

3. Is it practical to have the backs of bass traps covered?
like with acoustic ceiling tiles.

4. bass trap placement? Mid wall, same height as monitors, or towards either tri-corner?

Thanks guys.

[Ethan Winer]

^^^ The answers to all of those questions and more are here:

Acoustics FAQ

--Ethan

[EquabileStudios]

Thanks ethan,

so it looks like the higher density 703 is compressed 4x that of standard R38.
But i'm having trouble finding a direct answer from your link.
Is ridgid fiberglass used just because it doesn't take up as much space, and is easier to work with that standard fiberglass? and honestly, i have already read it 12 or more times. It has alot of great info, and i would recommend it to anybody.

and the only reference to bass traps being covered is the panel trap. but thats not what im doing. im just using what i have. basically just saving fabric. there is an air gap between the wall and the back of the trap.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by EquabileStudios

i'm having trouble finding a direct answer from your link. Is ridgid fiberglass used just because it doesn't take up as much space, and is easier to work with that standard fiberglass?

Yes and Yes. Once you get to a foot thick or more, fluffy fiberglass works well. But with less thickness the rigid type absorbs much more. This might help:

Density Report

--Ethan

[EquabileStudios]

Awesome Ethan, thank you. I will post my before and after results when I'm done.

[jaydottcomm]

Good to know..i made a thread on this and didnt get much feedback a day ago..."Cellulose" was the word i was looking for. No wonder i could find much under Blow Insulation. How compact can you make the Cellulose? I was wanting to make a bass trap out of it. I was thinking making a wooden frame with two mesh-like enclosures to keep it from spilling out.(if needed) I got ten or more bags of this stuff just laying around.

[SUBLIMINAL-]

hi everyone, i bought 4 rolls of fluffy 100 mm thick fiberglass, left them in the original plastic package and place them in my room corners, do you think they are gonna work fine as bass-traps?

[EmmitSycamore]

I just posted a description of my modest recording space,
in another thread. This might be handy as alternative:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5981215-post18.html

HTH,
EmmitSycamore

[guitarf1]

I just want to say that I did a DIY installation of blown-in cellulose in my attic last year. We used about 120 bags of this stuff (Yes about 120 bags) and filled in all of the roof rafters with fabric netting.

After it was all done, the room was DEAD. Standing 30 feet apart, I could scream and my girlfriend could barely hear me at the other side. It was a challenge because to communication you really had to scream while the drywall was being put up.

So cellulose that was blown with a machine COULD be blown into tight netting or burlap fabric, but you will have a lot of dust if disturbed. Not sure if the same effect would work with air-tight bags. That is my personal experience and I myself am in search of cheap DIY sound absorbing materials.