Live Church Band -- NEED Help Organizing and learning!!

[ck23dw]

http://www.prosoundweb.com/church/

Lots of good articles there

[Option1]

Originally Posted by ck23dw

Church Sound - Pro Sound Web

Lots of good articles there

Thanks Bro, I basically read so far the importance of "Gain" and some what how to adjust it. Also the real qualities of a sound operator.

Just a quick glimpse of what im working with.
I have about 2,500 square feet in our church but with a little lobby area that its always opened.
I will post a picure of our location, and how the artists are setup up as well as speakers.

[Heartfelt]

First, honestly, with that small of a system and that small of a stage area, I would not go up to six singers. I would create a rotation. The biggest reason is monitoring, hearing each other and blending. I had multiple teams rotating for several years and many churches do this to allow opportunity to grow.

Second, strive to keep things simple. This is important in a learning curve and in a personnel shortage.

I am not a sales guy or installer, I am a worship leader with experience in many different scenarios. If you'd like to talk off line, send me a private message and I will give you my email. I have some ideas on how I can be of help, even long distance. There still will be a need to go through some growing and learning pains but maybe we can reduce that. I'd like to help. That's just what I do.

[shanabit]

1. I agree with Heartfelt on the singer rotation. 6 is too many blasting in the monitors in that space. You really only need 3 good ones at any one time UNLESS your doing super duper harmonies which we all know is not done in church. Its 3 part usually. No one will ever be happy with the monitor mix and they wont blend well as was mentioned.
2. Doing that allows the singers to NOT be locked in to having to be there every week and make the practices which in turn allows your to rotate even more through as singers become available.
3. Very much keep the setup as simple as possible.

[Option1]

Originally Posted by shanabit

1. I agree with Heartfelt on the singer rotation. 6 is too many blasting in the monitors in that space. You really only need 3 good ones at any one time UNLESS your doing super duper harmonies which we all know is not done in church. Its 3 part usually. No one will ever be happy with the monitor mix and they wont blend well as was mentioned.
2. Doing that allows the singers to NOT be locked in to having to be there every week and make the practices which in turn allows your to rotate even more through as singers become available.
3. Very much keep the setup as simple as possible.

Ok, I understand the singing part. How I had it before was the Pianist had a mic, and 1 lead and two back up singers. So a total of four mics. Now they added two more singers. Making it a total of 6 singers.

I don't really organize the singers aspect of the church. Mostly the mixing and sound managing. I will explain it to my pastors. So far I've have not been putting them so loud as my Main Vocalist and Pianist. Just as back up singers, Do you guys understand me? Sorry for the noob reposnses.

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by Option1

Ok, I understand the singing part. How I had it before was the Pianist had a mic, and 1 lead and two back up singers. So a total of four mics. Now they added two more singers. Making it a total of 6 singers.

I don't really organize the singers aspect of the church. Mostly the mixing and sound managing. I will explain it to my pastors. So far I've have not been putting them so loud as my Main Vocalist and Pianist. Just as back up singers, Do you guys understand me? Sorry for the noob reposnses.

No problem at all with your responses. I think you are right in preferring the leader in the monitor mixes. It is tough with limited monitoring.

One of my concerns for you is that you have some specialized, though not expensive pieces in the rack. They are pieces that if not understood and implemented well, can wreak havoc on one's ability to mix. I think it is possible to scale back to a very simple configuration, making it easy and eliminating negative possibilities. I can say more if you like.

[Option1]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

No problem at all with your responses. I think you are right in preferring the leader in the monitor mixes. It is tough with limited monitoring.

One of my concerns for you is that you have some specialized, though not expensive pieces in the rack. They are pieces that if not understood and implemented well, can wreak havoc on one's ability to mix. I think it is possible to scale back to a very simple configuration, making it easy and eliminating negative possibilities. I can say more if you like.

Go ahead, I am all ears.

[Heartfelt]

If in your shoes, I would take the compressors, the exciter and the equalizers out of he signal path. In other words, i would only use the CD players, and then the mixer, amp and speakers. Compressors typically require a hands on approach and I would approach an exciter the same way.

I would consider this for either of two reasons, 1. if you don't have a handle on useful compression and exciters and 2. when down a man, simplicity is everything.

[Option1]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

If in your shoes, I would take the compressors, the exciter and the equalizers out of he signal path. In other words, i would only use the CD players, and then the mixer, amp and speakers. Compressors typically require a hands on approach and I would approach an exciter the same way.

I would consider this for either of two reasons, 1. if you don't have a handle on useful compression and exciters and 2. when down a man, simplicity is everything.

Whew, if I was to disconnect that my Pastor would kill me. Though I know it would help me in the process of learning. Im actually reading up on things so I would take the challenge. I know its absurd since Im looking for help, but it's been like this for years and they have never taken it off.

Right now I'm actually looking at the fact that everything is connected from main signal from the mixers to the aural exciter,then to compressor, then to the crossover, then to equalizer, and then to the Main PA Speakers, somewhere along the line it jumps to the Subs Power Amp. The whole system is sort a like a series circuit , Correct me if I am wrong. Though on the Mackie Mixer Manual it describes as having a Main Insert for a compressor and equalizer. Then you would add the aural exciter in the system too if I am correct. The Mixer also has a sub out, in which they(previous engineer) did not connect straight to the sub power amp.
The reason I bring this up is that in the book and in video's I've watched, it explains as not using the main out to compressors or equlizers because you are adding volume as you bringing up the main mix fader. Thus defeating the purpose of the other systems. I hope you understand what I am trying to explain.
I was thinking of connecting the compressor and equalizer in the main insert, and leaving the aural exciter and crossover for the main out after the main Fader. What do you think?

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by Option1

Whew, if I was to disconnect that my Pastor would kill me. Though I know it would help me in the process of learning. Im actually reading up on things so I would take the challenge. I know its absurd since Im looking for help, but it's been like this for years and they have never taken it off.

Right now I'm actually looking at the fact that everything is connected from main signal from the mixers to the aural exciter,then to compressor, then to the crossover, then to equalizer, and then to the Main PA Speakers, somewhere along the line it jumps to the Subs Power Amp. The whole system is sort a like a series circuit , Correct me if I am wrong. Though on the Mackie Mixer Manual it describes as having a Main Insert for a compressor and equalizer. Then you would add the aural exciter in the system too if I am correct. The Mixer also has a sub out, in which they(previous engineer) did not connect straight to the sub power amp.
The reason I bring this up is that in the book and in video's I've watched, it explains as not using the main out to compressors or equlizers because you are adding volume as you bringing up the main mix fader. Thus defeating the purpose of the other systems. I hope you understand what I am trying to explain.
I was thinking of connecting the compressor and equalizer in the main insert, and leaving the aural exciter and crossover for the main out after the main Fader. What do you think?

Looks like I miss spoke a little. The Ashley unit is a crossover and if using subs, you will need that in place.

By your description and what I see in the pic of your mackie, I believe you are correct that everything is in series and you are right... that is not best practice. Best practice is using main inserts on the exciter and compression and even the EQ as possible. The crossover and amps are good in series. i suspect the sub amp gets its feed from the ashley crossover. That is typical.

My greatest concern in your rack gear is that you have a cheap compressor (alesis 3630) in the rack and if set improperly on the master mix, it could be digging in with no supervision and destroying the dynamics of your mix. It would be good to evaluate that by having the band play and having someone watch the gain reduction LEDs to see if any reduction is happening.

[Option1]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

Looks like I miss spoke a little. The Ashley unit is a crossover and if using subs, you will need that in place.

By your description and what I see in the pic of your mackie, I believe you are correct that everything is in series and you are right... that is not best practice. Best practice is using main inserts on the exciter and compression and even the EQ as possible. The crossover and amps are good in series. i suspect the sub amp gets its feed from the ashley crossover. That is typical.

My greatest concern in your rack gear is that you have a cheap compressor (alesis 3630) in the rack and if set improperly on the master mix, it could be digging in with no supervision and destroying the dynamics of your mix. It would be good to evaluate that by having the band play and having someone watch the gain reduction LEDs to see if any reduction is happening.

No bro it's cool. lol So basically my crossover is for subs? So I have a subout on my mixer and it displays 75hz. Then I would plug this into my crossover, then to my power amps, then to subs.

On the PA Speakers, I would place it in this order. First I insert my stereo to 2mono plugs (input/output) to my mixer (Main Inserts) then to the Aural Exciter, then to Compression, and then to equalizer (this would be in a jumper way). My mains outs would then go to my PA speakers. This is how I would connect it judging from what you are telling me.

Do these setups sound correct?
Because they are all plugged wrong right now as we speak, I know that for sure. I always see the compression LED's peaking. Never looked good to me.....IDK if it meant something.

[Heartfelt]

It appears that "everything" in the board goes out of the main outs (two black/blue cables on right). From there, they must hit the exciter, compressor, eqs and crossover (in some order not known to me). I suspect that the Ashley crossover sends both to the mains and the subs.

The 4 sub outs are not for the subwoofers, they are for a method of mixing employing the use of sub groups.

The sub out you mentioned, is likely the board's way of providing crossover, which means that whoever specced the purchase either didn't know the board or didn't like its ability to crossover and wanted adjustability with the Ashley. It is a redundancy and if no cable is attached to that output, it is a mute point.

Here is Mackie's connection chart
http://www.mackie.com/pdf/cfxseries_hu.pdf

You can see that your thought is correct with the compressor and eq being hit by the main inserts in stereo format. The exciter would be in that cluster, just as you suspect.

The difference from your setup possibility and Mackie's chart is that the main outs should go to your ashley and then split to your amps and speakers/subs.

[Option1]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

It appears that "everything" in the board goes out of the main outs (two black/blue cables on right). From there, they must hit the exciter, compressor, eqs and crossover (in some order not known to me). I suspect that the Ashley crossover sends both to the mains and the subs.

The 4 sub outs are not for the subwoofers, they are for a method of mixing employing the use of sub groups.

The sub out you mentioned, is likely the board's way of providing crossover, which means that whoever specced the purchase either didn't know the board or didn't like its ability to crossover and wanted adjustability with the Ashley. It is a redundancy and if no cable is attached to that output, it is a mute point.

Here is Mackie's connection chart
http://www.mackie.com/pdf/cfxseries_hu.pdf

You can see that your thought is correct with the compressor and eq being hit by the main inserts in stereo format. The exciter would be in that cluster, just as you suspect.

The difference from your setup possibility and Mackie's chart is that the main outs should go to your ashley and then split to your amps and speakers/subs.

Ok got it, so I just fixed everything.
Old Setup was
Mackie Main Out to Alexis Compressor to Ashly Crossover, Hi's to equalizer, equalizer to PA Speakers. Then Ashly crossover low's to Sub Amp then to speakers.

New Setup
Mackie Inserts to compressor to equalizer then back to main inserts
Mackie main out to crossover then split hi's to speakers and lows to sub amp and then speaker.

That's should be good right?
Forgot to mention that the exciter has no power cable so I'm not going to use it

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by Option1

Ok got it, so I just fixed everything.
Old Setup was
Mackie Main Out to Alexis Compressor to Ashly Crossover, Hi's to equalizer, equalizer to PA Speakers. Then Ashly crossover low's to Sub Amp then to speakers.

New Setup
Mackie Inserts to compressor to equalizer then back to main inserts
Mackie main out to crossover then split hi's to speakers and lows to sub amp and then speaker.

That's should be good right?
Forgot to mention that the exciter has no power cable so I'm not going to use it

So you had the "y" cables standing by for the insert situation? If so, awesome.

That is a standard approach, yes, you got it. Keeping the equalizers and compressor neutral means you don't have to worry about them right now. Of course, you can do anything you like. The above pic makes it look like the EQ's are neutral, everything is centered.

The compressor is the only rogue element. You say you see lights. It may only be the input and output lights. That would be the way to go as it means no gain reduction is happening. The only care to take would be to use the output gain knobs to balance the L/R sides and especially to make sure you are not overloading anything. Stay out of the red. 3630 overload distortion is nasty.

Lastly, look and make sure the gates in the compressor are always open. With all of that, you have neutralized all but the gain of the compressor and equalizers and the quality therein. That is the best you can do without disconnecting unless you find bypass buttons. (just occurred to me) From there, it is just your board, the crossover, the amps and your speakers.

[Option1]

Originally Posted by Heartfelt

So you had the "y" cables standing by for the insert situation? If so, awesome.

That is a standard approach, yes, you got it. Keeping the equalizers and compressor neutral means you don't have to worry about them right now. Of course, you can do anything you like. The above pic makes it look like the EQ's are neutral, everything is centered.

The compressor is the only rogue element. You say you see lights. It may only be the input and output lights. That would be the way to go as it means no gain reduction is happening. The only care to take would be to use the output gain knobs to balance the L/R sides and especially to make sure you are not overloading anything. Stay out of the red. 3630 overload distortion is nasty.

Lastly, look and make sure the gates in the compressor are always open. With all of that, you have neutralized all but the gain of the compressor and equalizers and the quality therein. That is the best you can do without disconnecting unless you find bypass buttons. (just occurred to me) From there, it is just your board, the crossover, the amps and your speakers.

I actually learned the setup and went to bestbuy and bought the cables.
They were cheap cables but they will get the job done hopefully.
I will be stting up tonight so I will leave the Equalizer at the middle until I fix the compressor. I will take the info you just told me to and make sure the compressor is setup correctly. I will let you know tonight of how it sounds and the final outcome. Thanks

[Option1]

So I set everything up and the compressor does have a button to bypass the compression. I just watched a video about compression, it gave me a quick insight on it, but I played with it a lil to see if it worked yesterday. It does.
I only had two mics setup. I bought 2 new mics, Shure PG58's.

I am looking on how to setup my crossover. I really dont understand how to. I am trying to find video's but I can't find any.
As far as equalizer I have a small one on my mixer but it carries too much frequencies if I move one. The Main Equalizer on the bottom, hmmmm I need to learn.

[Heartfelt]

Originally Posted by Option1

So I set everything up and the compressor does have a button to bypass the compression. I just watched a video about compression, it gave me a quick insight on it, but I played with it a lil to see if it worked yesterday. It does.
I only had two mics setup. I bought 2 new mics, Shure PG58's.

I am looking on how to setup my crossover. I really dont understand how to. I am trying to find video's but I can't find any.
As far as equalizer I have a small one on my mixer but it carries too much frequencies if I move one. The Main Equalizer on the bottom, hmmmm I need to learn.

The best way to use a main equalizer like the rack units you have is with room analysis. That is a bit involved and something I couldn't properly explain here. A secondary way is by recognizing deficiencies or problem frequencies by critical listening. An example would be every mic feeding back at a particular frequency... this would clue you to a problem in the room and you could pull that frequency down a bit.

I would suggest caution and to make subtle changes if any.

I was thinking about the crossover and I think the best recommendation for both the crossover and equalizers is to suggest having a professional come out and tune the system. That shouldn't be costly but could be quite useful in making sure things are setup appropriately.

There's no way for anyone here to suggest how to tune your crossover and equalizers from a distance. My main goal in helping has been to remove variables, making your job easy. I think we did that with the compressor and exciter. The board eq and rack eq's don't seem to have been used as they are all zeroed out. From here, you have a choice of three options:

1. try and adjust yourself
2. trust the previous adjustments
3. have someone tune the system

That latter is good for any church system. You just need to firm up front as to your goals and don't buy an snake oil. (wink)

[johnnyv]

Some excellent advice so far. I too would just not use the EQ or compressor without a proper set up. The mixer is totally capable of supplying good sound. I would use the compressor on the inserts for the Kick drum and the bass. Crossovers can be a pain and I'm glad to have never had to use one again for a long time. I would use the SUB out, the one that is marked 75hz, These days most Sub speaker boxes have a built in Hi Pass.
I actually prefer to run my subs ( speaker system) from an Aux or sub mix buss, Vocals do not belong there. Acoustic guitars can also sound woofy. So I only run Bass, Kick and CD player, sometimes keyboard and synths.

The picture brings up a few questions about the integrity of the wiring.
Most of those connections should be XLR other than the CD player and the inserts.
So one would hope they are at least TRS cables. Have you checked that?