Is sub overused in live mixing?

[AllAboutTone]

Even though it can sound cool, I hate subs being way to loud at live shows. That isn't the way we mix a CD is it? if so it would be pretty stupid.
For some reason on live shows they love to mix the kick all the way up....

[ChuncleMalone]

Yes! subs are abused in live situations. A lot of us think waaay too much about the kik drum...I was guilty of this for a while, but not long as I hated going to shows where I couldn't hear the guitars and vox...and I hated when i could;t get the gtrs and vocals to sit where i wanted.

It really IS about balance. Some guys lean on the subs to give there mixes energy. I have gotten to the point where I prefer with some acts to have the subs turned off altogether or just a smidge controlled on an aux. A little sub can go a Looong way if handled appropriately.

The ridiculous thing is in order to get a bass guitar to be heard in a mix usually means you need to take out a LOT of 100...everywhere...100 is usually affected by crossovers a s well...it really is a bucket of "what a nightmare" if you don;t have enough resolve to lay off the lows live.

This is big...folks should be trying to work on all the time.

Also...I despise looking over at the FOH engineer and they are dancing when they need to be working...the good ones are rarely dancing...the good ones are always working...working....every song working...mixing.

PS. Sometimes the room beats you.

[glenn Taylor]

I am in. I hate way loud subs. For my studio listening systems like in my office I just turn a hair of the sub on. It's easy for people to have subs too loud,but it is so mis used it's changed what the norm in live mixes. I can 't imagine what a live rap concert sounds like. GT.

[ChuncleMalone]

Well believe it or not, there are actually some that know how to mix. There are lots actually. Some of the best sounding shows I've seen have been Hip Hop shows. Depends on who's mixing and who's playing. Snoop, Ice Cube, Dre...unbelievably great sounding...not too much sub...just right

gotta hear them vocals!

[AlexK]

I like live music to be leaning towards the low-end, keeps things sounding fat and involving, but agreed otherwise, subs are horrendously overused/abused a lot of the time.

[doom64]

If the subs sound bad at the FOH position imagine the poor suckers in the pit!

[ChuncleMalone]

Originally Posted by doom64

If the subs sound bad at the FOH position imagine the poor suckers in the pit!

actually a big problem is that some don't take the time to walk the room. There could be a huge null at the FOH position. You gotta learn your room. Quickly.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by ChuncleMalone

Well believe it or not, there are actually some that know how to mix. There are lots actually. Some of the best sounding shows I've seen have been Hip Hop shows. Depends on who's mixing and who's playing. Snoop, Ice Cube, Dre...unbelievably great sounding...not too much sub...just right

Yeah, but "Just Right" for a Hip Hop show is probably the exact same amount of sub as "Too Much" at a rock show!

gotta hear them vocals!

In all honesty, there are not a lot of guitars in that music. Not being a wise guy, but what else is there to mix but the kick and the vocals?

My theory is that in general, FOH mixers go for "too much" sub because whether you like it or don't like it, that's how you 'know' you are at a big show with a big PA, it is the ONE sound that you simply CANNOT get at home!

They do it because they can!

[doom64]

Originally Posted by ChuncleMalone

actually a big problem is that some don't take the time to walk the room. There could be a huge null at the FOH position. You gotta learn your room. Quickly.

That goes without saying. I prefer to use Smaart and my ears. But Smaart helps to get you there faster.

I hate the clubs with FOH in the back against a wall. That is the absolute WORST!

[kennybro]

Cheap shortcut attempt at giving a mix power and depth. Kick drums are usually especially obnoxious. I go to very few shows these days, and it's a problem at almost every show I attend.

[Onan]

Originally Posted by ChuncleMalone

actually a big problem is that some don't take the time to walk the room. There could be a huge null at the FOH position. You gotta learn your room. Quickly.

There are certainly some underskilled foh engineers, but getting bass balanced throughout a big space can be really difficult. The engineer needs to walk the room and decide how to compromise: too much bass in some places, too little in others. When I did live work, I walked everywhere people might be. I did not try to make it perfect at the desk, but tried to make it darn good everywhere.

The difficulty is compounded by the limits on how you can array the PA. One thing I don't understand is why live rigs aren't designed to have all the subs together in one spot. That way, you don't have as many peaks and nulls where two separate stacks cause variations in the acoustic coupling. Especially where the PA is flown, fly those subs in a line or a block over center stage. There's nothing to be gained by having subs in "stereo." Putting all the subs together is both more even and more efficient.

When I go to shows with GA seating, I'll wander around to find the spot where it sounds good. Having walked around a hundred venues doing foh work, I can usually find the sweet spot pretty quick.

I'll add that I have heard some freaking amazing live sound. Big names and small. Peter Gabriel at an outdoor venue with an all-acoustic orchestra. Mae at a club in Lawrence, KS. Men at work at the House of Blues in Chicago. Pink Floyd at a football stadium. Some engineers are simply brilliant.
Lee

[bigdoghat]

Onan, could you please mix the next show I attend?!! It's interesting reading your reply because it brings up another question for me. Is it bad mixing or is it overall volume?

Certainly a bit of both in the shows I saw. I suppose the main problem I'm having is I don't want the sub drowning out anything. It's unpleasant and worse, it's random, it's not timed to the music, it pops in and out at random, at varying volumes depending on which note is hit and that's maybe the hardest thing for me to take. You can't get used to it or attempt to tune it out because it's constantly shifting and intruding to greater and lesser degrees.

And on both gigs the kick was totally fine believe it or not. The one that actually burned me the most was the cello, at both gigs. Do we really need to hear the subs blasting when the cello hits a low note. It seemed ridiculous and counter productive to the sound of the instrument. And it was muddy and muddled.

I kept wondering where was the sense of this being a balanced mix, at both gigs. Everything was balanced except for the sub, it was up and down, popping in and out, drowning, kind of drowning, not there at all then back with overwhelming force, depending on what notes were played by which player and it really didn't need to be on most of the instruments it affected.

[doom64]

Originally Posted by Onan

The difficulty is compounded by the limits on how you can array the PA. One thing I don't understand is why live rigs aren't designed to have all the subs together in one spot. That way, you don't have as many peaks and nulls where two separate stacks cause variations in the acoustic coupling. Especially where the PA is flown, fly those subs in a line or a block over center stage. There's nothing to be gained by having subs in "stereo." Putting all the subs together is both more even and more efficient.

When I go to shows with GA seating, I'll wander around to find the spot where it sounds good. Having walked around a hundred venues doing foh work, I can usually find the sweet spot pretty quick.

Thanks for these great tips! I never really thought about putting all the subwoofers on one array but that makes a lot of sense.

Interesting article: Meyer Sound News : Meyer Sound TM Array Gives Metallica Even Bass Coverage on In-the-Round Arena Tour

[bigdoghat]

Thumbs down Jim Williams!! Did you have to fight the urge to yank him off the board?! I was considering going to see Hugh Laurie at the El Rey, I'll give that a miss so!!

[ssaudio]

Making the assumption that the guy behind the board is wrong and, by implication, you are right, is a tad naive.
We often have to do as we are told when engineering.

[legato]

Is sub overused in live mixing?

YES!

In the bulk of cases, anyway.
More later.




Henk

[bigdoghat]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

Making the assumption that the guy behind the board is wrong and, by implication, you are right, is a tad naive.
We often have to do as we are told when engineering.

Nothing to do with right or wrong or if someone followed instructions or not. It's about the lack of awareness of a balanced mix.

I would imagine no band or artist would tell their engineer to create a wildly out of balance mix that intermittently and unexpectedly drowns out a variety of instruments.

So this is about why there appears to be a lack of awareness regarding how to mix acoustic instruments and also the general over use of sub to the point where it's not enhancing a mix but impeding it.

I think we can all agree when a mix sounds crap yeah? Or no, any mix at all is a good mix?

[ssaudio]

Like I suggested, you are very naive. It happens.
Example; whilst doing FOH for (at the time) one of the biggest selling female artists in the world I was told to mute the 3 solos a certain (very well known) guitarist played during the show - caused absolute mayhem every night for months, but there you go - I could go on, and on...like the multi-platinum rock band who insisted on their own (absolutely awful) vocal FX, stupidly high SPL and overuse of sub...etc...etc...

And no, 'we' cannot all agree on a mix, good or bad - that's about the only certainty you'll find.

[legato]

he has a "thing" for powerful subs... we call him "Little Dick".

All joking aside, I actually do believe there is a connection with testosterone or a (feared) lack thereof.

Uh oh.............




Henk

[bigdoghat]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

And no, 'we' cannot all agree on a mix, good or bad - that's about the only certainty you'll find.

You're right I'm naive. You win. I guess my experience also working with 'multi platinum' (let's not forget to include how big they are) artists doesn't count right?

Care to answer the actual question that I posted? I'm not really interested in trading insults which so often happens in this forum, I'd like to have an intelligent discussion.

[doom64]

"My platinum selling clients are better than yours! Nanenane poo-poo!"

Seriously though I hear you guys. Even on the local club scene level bands can be very demanding and if they want the bass up, they'll get the bass up. Despite not being able to hear the vocals and piano now. :-)

[ssaudio]

Originally Posted by bigdoghat

Care to answer the actual question that I posted?

I did:

Originally Posted by bigdoghat

It's about the lack of awareness of a balanced mix

I told you why it could quite possibly be something other than your assumption that the FOH guy was incompetent.

Originally Posted by bigdoghat

I would imagine no band or artist would tell their engineer to create a wildly out of balance mix that intermittently and unexpectedly drowns out a variety of instruments.

I gave you examples that showed your assumption was wrong. doom64 has provided you example that it happens at the bottom of the tree, I have provided proof that it happens at the top. It happens - I'm surprised, given your experience, you weren't aware.

Originally Posted by bigdoghat

So this is about why there appears to be a lack of awareness regarding how to mix acoustic instruments and also the general over use of sub to the point where it's not enhancing a mix but impeding it.

Except, as shown to you, it may well not be - try mixing jazz for a few years, you'll soon begin to wonder if you actually know anything.

Originally Posted by bigdoghat

I guess my experience also working with 'multi platinum' (let's not forget to include how big they are) artists doesn't count right?

I have no idea of the relevance. It certainly doesn't appear that way, I agree, but until you say something in context regards said experience, I can only assume.

Originally Posted by bigdoghat

I'm not really interested in trading insults which so often happens in this forum, I'd like to have an intelligent discussion.

You are certainly not here for the hunting, that's for sure.
I'm sorry things didn't turn out the way you'd hoped.