PA Mixer/Interface Hookup

[kbodrum]

bump.

is this a hard/silly question?

[nessup]

1) I'm certain that the answer to this question is yes, up until the point at which you ask "Would this work on a Powered Mixer?" By that point I'm not sure what you mean. What does an external "powered mixer" have to do with it if your sig chain is mic->PA mixer->PA mixer aux->Presonus?

2) Do you mean monitoring as in cuing? This question is confusing too because you're suggesting the use of stereo outs for monitoring. Stereo outs are not used for monitoring in the sense of cuing tracks to check monitor levels.

[kbodrum]

Hey ness, thanks for your reply

1)The reason I mention powered mixer is because while doing rehearsals, I would only be using the mixer and speakers (not the presonus), and I am also trying to decide whether to go with a powered mixer/passive speaker setup, or a active speaker setup (leaning towards active, so I can just use a small format mixer).
Then, when I want to record, I can use the same set-up, but just run an aux into the presonus

2) I mean for checking against different speakers. When I'm mixing down, I like to check the mix against car speakers, studio monitors and PA speakers, therefore it would have to be stereo. If I have the presonus return back to the PA mixer, then I can just do the switch via my DAW or Presonus Universal Control (as it allows 4x different stereo outputs) whenever I want to swap the output of my mix.

Hope this clarified it :/

[nessup]

Originally Posted by kbodrum

Hey ness, thanks for your reply

1)The reason I mention powered mixer is because while doing rehearsals, I would only be using the mixer and speakers (not the presonus), and I am also trying to decide whether to go with a powered mixer/passive speaker setup, or a active speaker setup (leaning towards active, so I can just use a small format mixer).
Then, when I want to record, I can use the same set-up, but just run an aux into the presonus

Firstly, you should understand that the term "active speaker" does not imply that a mixer is built in to the speaker. It only implies that the transformers and adapters used to power the cabinet are in the same box. Therefore it is possible to use an active speaker with a console as well.

To answer your question, yes, you can run an aux into the presonus. No reason that you couldn't -- assuming that your presonus can accept line-level inputs, which may be what your speaker is going to give you. You might need to pad it. You need to check the nature of the output on the actual speaker.

2) I mean for checking against different speakers. When I'm mixing down, I like to check the mix against car speakers, studio monitors and PA speakers, therefore it would have to be stereo. If I have the presonus return back to the PA mixer, then I can just do the switch via my DAW or Presonus Universal Control (as it allows 4x different stereo outputs) whenever I want to swap the output of my mix.

Hope this clarified it :/

If your presonus has four stereo outputs, it should be simple for you to reroute the output of your sequencing software to the necessary output pair without the use of physical patching. For example, in Ableton, I have the choice of outputting to a thing called "1/2", which represent a stereo pair of output ch 1 and 2. In theory you should be able to hook 3/4 and 5/6 to the devices you need to send audio to. Although I've never used Presonus before, I'd be surprised if you weren't given the option in the software. It's basic stuff really.

[kbodrum]

1) Awesome, that solves my first issue, thanks. Although, you mentioned that is what my speaker is giving me.. the aux would come from the mixer not the speaker? what do you mean by pad it? The presonus can take line inputs so it should still be all sweet

2) Ok, that's true, and that is what I am currently doing with my presonus, but for this to work, it would mean that the PA speakers would be plugged into those outputs on the Presonus. Fine so far, but when I am only rehearsing (therefore, not needing the presonus) it means my PC would have to be turned on to allow for the mixer to get to the speakers.
I am ideally looking for a way to have mics->mixer->speakers only during rehearsal and when recording it would be
mics->mixer->presonus->PC
then routed back PC->presonus->mixer->PA speakers OR PC->presonus->studio monitors

essentially looking to eliminate the computer and presonus while rehearsing, then when recording I can turn it all on.

[nessup]

Originally Posted by kbodrum

1) Awesome, that solves my first issue, thanks. Although, you mentioned that is what my speaker is giving me.. the aux would come from the mixer not the speaker? what do you mean by pad it? The presonus can take line inputs so it should still be all sweet

Sorry, I must've misunderstood. If the auxes are coming out of the mixer, then chances are very good your Presonus can handle it just fine.

2) Ok, that's true, and that is what I am currently doing with my presonus, but for this to work, it would mean that the PA speakers would be plugged into those outputs on the Presonus. Fine so far, but when I am only rehearsing (therefore, not needing the presonus) it means my PC would have to be turned on to allow for the mixer to get to the speakers.
I am ideally looking for a way to have mics->mixer->speakers only during rehearsal and when recording it would be
mics->mixer->presonus->PC
then routed back PC->presonus->mixer->PA speakers OR PC->presonus->studio monitors

essentially looking to eliminate the computer and presonus while rehearsing, then when recording I can turn it all on.

It's hard for me to visualize your setup and understand every possible permutation of it. When you go from mixer to presonus in the recording setup, would you be giving the presonus a 2-buss or multiple channels? If you're only recording stereo pairs, it shouldn't be hard to send from the presonus to the console as a 2-bus (any modern mixer these days includes at least two stereo faders). Then, on your mixer, you can configure the following:

mixer stereo output -> speakers
mixer aux1/aux2 -> reference monitors
mixer aux3/aux4 -> reference monitors

For recording, you can get a copy of the stereo bus like so:

mixer stereo output->speakers->stereo output copy->personus (note: if you don't want the speakers to sound during recording, just turn the volume down. your PA should have no problem copying the signal despite the fact that sound should be coming out)

When rehearsing, you do mic->mixer->speaker no problem. When recording, you do mic->mixer->speaker->presonus->PC simply by outputting to your stereo LR and making sure the outputted signal makes it to the interface.

If you don't have enough outputs on your mixer, then I'm afraid there's no way to do this without rewiring your rig when rehearsing. Rewiring isn't that bad, btw -- any good audio engineer should get used to doing it quickly. On the other hand, you also have to bear in mind that you shouldn't complicate your life unnecessarily. It might just be easier to leave your computer on so that the routing can work out.

You can see this is really messy. Your signal is degrading as it passes through each component. By the time it makes it to the audio IF, it will have gone through various devices, any one of which may have grounding issues, bad soldering, hiss, and god knows what else. For something so simple, I can't imagine any good signal path looking like this. Not even pro signal paths are this messy. Just do your part and rewire is my ultimate advice. Justification: every component in your chain is fulfilling a slightly different purpose depending on whether you're rehearsing or recording.

[kbodrum]

Originally Posted by nessup

When you go from mixer to presonus in the recording setup, would you be giving the presonus a 2-buss or multiple channels? If you're only recording stereo pairs, it shouldn't be hard to send from the presonus to the console as a 2-bus (any modern mixer these days includes at least two stereo faders).

I would preferably be sending a stereo mix of the vocals from the console to the presonus, but I could get away with having a mono aux send, and just using 1 of the 8 inputs the presonus has, leaving the other 6 or 7 for drum mics and guitars. It's when I'm sending back to the console that I'd like stereo because it's my engineered mix then

Originally Posted by nessup

mixer stereo output->speakers->stereo output copy->personus (note: if you don't want the speakers to sound during recording, just turn the volume down. your PA should have no problem copying the signal despite the fact that sound should be coming out)

That would probably be overkill, extending or copying the line at the speaker then all the way back to the rig (in my studio that's probably 5 or 10m worth of unecessary cabling). I was just thinking of taking an auxillary send from the console while rehearsing, patch it to a presonus input then start recording - This sounds fine and dandy

Then looping it back into the mixing console is what I imagined to get my PA sound of the mix, is this what you mean by losing quality because it is essentially the same signal looping between the 2 mixers (or mixer->interface->mixer etc)??

If it works out too hard, like you say, I will just swap the speaker cables between mixers whenever I need the other sound. All the while, there's no need to remove the patch from mixer to presonus

keep in mind, I haven't purchased a pa mixer yet - as long is it's got 2 sets of outputs I'm all good - no need for an aux return in this case hey? just a main out(speakers) and control room out or whatever for the send to presonus. When I want a reference with those speakers, I can just remove 2 vocal mics and use those channels, as I wont be using mics whilst mixing back.


I think I've got it:
Rehearsing
(normal pa setup)

While Recording
Mics->PA mixer->speakers->band's ears

While Mixing
Presonus->Studio Monitors
Presonus->PA Mixer->Speakers

I think you've covered it man, and I've worked out more while writing this, time to go mixer shopping I think

[nessup]

Originally Posted by kbodrum

I would preferably be sending a stereo mix of the vocals from the console to the presonus, but I could get away with having a mono aux send, and just using 1 of the 8 inputs the presonus has, leaving the other 6 or 7 for drum mics and guitars. It's when I'm sending back to the console that I'd like stereo because it's my engineered mix then

Hm. I'm not aware of any small format live consoles that have 8 outputs. But who knows.

That would probably be overkill, extending or copying the line at the speaker then all the way back to the rig (in my studio that's probably 5 or 10m worth of unecessary cabling). I was just thinking of taking an auxillary send from the console while rehearsing, patch it to a presonus input then start recording - This sounds fine and dandy

Then looping it back into the mixing console is what I imagined to get my PA sound of the mix, is this what you mean by losing quality because it is essentially the same signal looping between the 2 mixers (or mixer->interface->mixer etc)??

The signal degradation I was referring to was sending your stereo out to your speaker, only to have it return to the presonus rig. I wrote that bit of advice assuming you were only recording a 2-buss into the Presonus, so obviously it's not relevant anymore.

If it works out too hard, like you say, I will just swap the speaker cables between mixers whenever I need the other sound. All the while, there's no need to remove the patch from mixer to presonus

To be honest with you, the way you've got your system set up is antithetical to the way studios that produce "hi fi" material. A live sound console -- especially the small format ones -- are not built with the idea in mind that the user will use it to track. Just know that you're limiting the quality of your recordings severely here. If you are okay with that and can be real about what your studio is capable of doing, then there's no problem.

keep in mind, I haven't purchased a pa mixer yet - as long is it's got 2 sets of outputs I'm all good - no need for an aux return in this case hey? just a main out(speakers) and control room out or whatever for the send to presonus. When I want a reference with those speakers, I can just remove 2 vocal mics and use those channels, as I wont be using mics whilst mixing back.

How can you send 8 channels worth of info to your Presonus if your mixer has 4 ch worth of output?

I think you've covered it man, and I've worked out more while writing this, time to go mixer shopping I think

My pleasure my friend. The sooner you can manipulate signal chains in a way to increase your productivity, the better

[kbodrum]

Originally Posted by nessup

Hm. I'm not aware of any small format live consoles that have 8 outputs. But who knows.

I will only need two sets of outputs, one for the PA speakers and one for most likely, a mono send to only one input on the Presonus.
I think I've decided on a powered mixer, by the way - something like this-> http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/PMP960M.aspx

Originally Posted by nessup

To be honest with you, the way you've got your system set up is antithetical to the way studios that produce "hi fi" material. A live sound console -- especially the small format ones -- are not built with the idea in mind that the user will use it to track. Just know that you're limiting the quality of your recordings severely here. If you are okay with that and can be real about what your studio is capable of doing, then there's no problem.

Yeah, I know it's not ideal but the recordings that would be going through this chain will only be rough recordings of jam sessions. Any hi-quality recording I do will be tracked through the Presonus only.
The PA mixer will only be used for recording these sessions so that I can use the other inputs on the interface for drum mics/guitar sends etc. (3 or 4 vocal mics tracked is nice, but I'd rather put more mics on the drums, seeing as I only have 8 channels available. It's also so I can have a basic mixdown of all vocals the way we hear it in the room normally when rehearsing.

Originally Posted by nessup

How can you send 8 channels worth of info to your Presonus if your mixer has 4 ch worth of output?

I wouldn't be sending 8, I would most likely be only sending 1. The vox all go through the mixer then that mix would go to one dedicated vocal channel only


It's a confusing setup, I know. I just want to be able to jam away, then when we come up with an idea, hit record and we've got a rough copy of it, without playing around too much on the daw.
I couldn't rehearse well with just the Presonus, because all EQing and Levels would have to be done on the computer, so I'm trying to make it plug and play. And I would lose half my channels to vocals

I'll draw a hook-up diagram to simplify it

[kbodrum]

This should sum it up pretty well.

As far as I can see, I have solved my first issue of whether or not I can send from the mixer to the interface (red line)
And the monitoring between speakers can be done by swapping the blue and green, then using onboard software

I'm happy, but I feel something's missing :\

My original idea was to have the green cable bridge back into the mixer, which, now looking at the diagram would have to go to a line-in on the mixer anyway, as they are passive speakers.. cant be bothered changing the image now, but you get the idea