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Shure KSM9 vs Neumann KMS 105
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Icarus
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23rd January 2010
Old 23rd January 2010
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Talking Shure KSM9 vs Neumann KMS 105

Hello all, regular lurker on the GS forums here. I was wondering if y'all would help me out with a bit of knowledge.

The time has come for me to start playing my music live, and I need a top of the line live vocal mic for a male/baritone voice. I have a fairly dynamic range both pitch and volume wise, and after much consideration, I have come to the conclusion that I would like either the KSM9 or KMS105 to be my vocal mic. On stage it'll just be little ol' me with my acoustic guitar, so clarity is imperative, as is capturing the energy and punch of the lyrics/singing.

I read some other threads here and there across the internet that have compared these two mics, but if you're willing, I'd like an updated perspective. As an aside, at the guitar center I went to, only the kms104 was available, and that was nice, but not quite right for my voice.

I will appreciate any knowledge shot this way, and will remember it. Thanks.
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23rd January 2010
Old 23rd January 2010
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You really need to try them out for yourself. You said you didn't like the 104. I've never AB'ed the 104/105 but I would think they would sound the same if you're on axis. The 104 is cardioid and the 105 is hypercard. So between the two the KSM9 is probably your best bet. But why limit it to those two? I once worked at a church and the music leader had a certain midrange to his voice. I tried every high end mic out there: KMS105, Audix VX10, Beta 87, Earthworks sr69, e835, sm58 (the KSM9 wasn't out yet), but found the best mic for his voice was an AT AE5400. I'd never been a big fan of AT mics in general but this was the answer for his voice.

Good luck. The only person that can answer your question is you, so start demo-ing mics now.
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23rd January 2010
Old 23rd January 2010
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Well, it ain't a studio sample... but here's our worship leader on a KMS105 in a board mix recorded at a Sunday service in November. Allen&Heath GL3800, onboard micamps; a bit of rolloff at 80Hz on the channel. The BGVs are all on SM86s, and the vocal submaster is run through a DBX 166A comp/limiter. The peaks are usually down -3dB across the DBX. Since this is not a serious record effort (mainly a backup CD for the video capture for webcast of the message) it's also run through an AutoCom on the way to the Tascam burner. Thin crew... no time or eyes to watch the record levels... so there's another -3dB or so on the entire mix at that point. But... you can hear how it sits in a live mix.

Real world it is. Chad Jarnigan, the worship leader/lead vox, likes the 105 better than any mic he sang through in a 10+ year career of band and worship gigs on the road and at a previous church staff job. During the first few months of his tenure, we put him through a variety of mics (including a filtered Shure 57, SM58, 86, Beta 87A, Audix OM2, and, for kicks, foam-socked AKG C3000 and Rode NT1 LDCs) during soundchecks. He was extremely pleased to move from the Beta 87A he started on to the KMS105 when we moved into new space, with a new PA. He monitors through a Shure PSM600 with custom bi-driver molds. I found the 105 used on eBay for $389, including shipping. Probably a few more 105s out there used than KSM9s.

From my perspective at FOH, it's definitely better than anything else in our complement of vocal workhorses (SM86, SM58, Beta 87A and Audix OM2) for his voice. The slightly off-axis and lean-backs are pretty much just reduced level... nothing too weird in the frequency responses... and it seems that, with a modicum of care, it would be pretty roadworthy.

Get 'em. Try 'em. Listen through your monitoring rig... at the same session or soundcheck, if possible. It's the only way to know.
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Icarus
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23rd January 2010
Old 23rd January 2010
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Thank you for the responses guys. Yeah, I should clarify: I tried the kms104 versus some other mics and it was hands down the best, but I didn't get a chance to A/B it vs the 105 or the ksm9.

Thank you for that clip of your worship leader, that really gave me some more perspective. And I do agree, I should check out a bunch of microphones, but I'm not really in a position to check those particular mics out.

Do you have much of a problem with feedback when using the 105?

Thanks!
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23rd January 2010
Old 23rd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Thank you for the responses guys. Yeah, I should clarify: I tried the kms104 versus some other mics and it was hands down the best, but I didn't get a chance to A/B it vs the 105 or the ksm9.

Thank you for that clip of your worship leader, that really gave me some more perspective. And I do agree, I should check out a bunch of microphones, but I'm not really in a position to check those particular mics out.

Do you have much of a problem with feedback when using the 105?

Thanks!
No worries there... either for the posting or the feedback. We're running a D&B T-10 line array rig designed for use in our squarish 1200-seat room. We also have the entire band on IEMs. The kit is shielded (Clearsonics 360... 180 half-plex, 180 fabric covered Fiberglas) and the bass usually runs direct, so stage volume is really low for the usual 5- to 6-piece, 3-vox band... just guitar amps and snare bleed. I can't remember the last time we had feedback during the worship set...

The 105 is run basically flat through the channel, high pass in, and -3 at 80Hz. Everything but kick, bass and keys are high pass... the B2 subs on the floor make that a very important detail. After the initial couple of weeks of tuning the amps (D&B system processors live in the dedicated amps) we run the house graph flat... except a -3dB cut at 160. First time for everything, I guess. In fact, the guy who designed and installed the rig and the initial acoustic treatment for our converted warehouse space (who mixes at a church about 5 miles up the road) left muttering something about how he wished our system lived at his church after his visit on Grand Opening Sunday. Nice to know, that.

I've heard from several FOH pals that the KSM9 and KMS104/105 are sonically very much in the same ballpark. FR curves are similar (KSM9 has less proximity effect; KMS105 a bit smoother HF bump) and both seem to allow a good singer to sound, well, good. Not much help for the marginal types, though. I just happened upon the 105 on that eBay deal (I got it about six minutes after it was posted, according to the seller) the week before we went "live" in the new space, and before I had a chance to test the KSM9. Worship leader was tickled. Peoples in the seats are complimentary (especially after "church-in-the-box" at a local theater complex for nearly four years). All is well.
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23rd January 2010
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Cool! I'm glad to hear that it is working well for you. Honestly, that makes me want one, but I really need to have a shoot-out between the two of them. As for what you say about them being revealing of vocal ability, I'm not worried about that. If I mess up, shame on me.

It has also come to my attention to try the Sennheiser E965. I'd like to throw that in the mix too. I guess I wanted a little more evidence that the ksm9 and the 105 will get the job done from people with experience. Thanks thumbsup
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23rd January 2010
Old 23rd January 2010
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I have an ae5400, I would try the Audix also, It's the other top contender in this category. These mics are all similar in quality, the small differences make each the right mic for a particular singer. The 5400 has a 1" capsule, rolloff and a pad.
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23rd January 2010
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The audix vx10? If you mean that one, yeah, I'd like to try that as well.
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23rd January 2010
Old 23rd January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
It has also come to my attention to try the Sennheiser E965. I'd like to throw that in the mix too. I guess I wanted a little more evidence that the ksm9 and the 105 will get the job done from people with experience. Thanks thumbsup
The e965 has a switchable polar-pattern - cardioid and super-cardioid.

What was your reservation on the KSM 104? - Don't forget there is also the new KSM 194 PLUS which has an extended bottom end that could cover your reservations.
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24th January 2010
Old 24th January 2010
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In my experience, the 105 is a great mic. Very natural and lush-sounding, even when the singer backs off by a foot. Excellent with acoustic artists.

(see this example - I mixed this show, was surprised how far Bo was off-mic when I saw the footage!)

YouTube - Bo Bruce - Black Ice (Acoustic)

The downside of that is it's ability to pick up instruments ten feet away (on axis) with great clarity... so if you have a drummer right behind you it can be a slight problem. But at least the spill sounds nice.

It can also be slightly more susceptible to pops and plosives than for instance a 58, but it's not an issue unless you're constantly eating the mic.

You also need to take care not to cover the back part of the grille if you hand-hold it, as that changes the sound fairly dramatically, and not in a good way. Not an issue when stand-mounted, but when handheld, some singers can't resist getting their hands all over the grille...

I guess these handling caveats are the price you pay for that sort of vocal quality.

Many live engineers I've worked with are surprised how much better than your average dynamic the 105 sounds in the mix... it's obvious even over fairly average PA systems.

Have never had feedback issues with the 105.

Sorry, no direct experience of the KSM9. I'm sure it's good too.
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24th January 2010
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Hi there,
A different view from my side. I find the 105 and 104 very plastic sounding, aspecially in the highs. I don't dislike it, but it's not my favorite at all! I put it on hi-hats and use a sm58 for vocals, if I have to choose...

I worked with KSM9's, wich I find nicer, but that really depends on the character of your voice (as with every mic, this one is a bit less flexible imo)


Check out the (AKG) C535!
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25th January 2010
Old 25th January 2010
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I agree the 105 isn't very rock and roll. Wouldn't be my first choice in those situations. But for acoustic and some R&B-type acts, it works very well (for me).

We have a live DVD by a big-name folk artist coming out in the next week or two, where we used a 105, and the vocal sounds great with almost no eq.
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25th January 2010
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I agree the 105 isn't very rock and roll. Wouldn't be my first choice in those situations...
Yeah... and at $600 retail you don't EVER want to see some drunk guy swinging it over his head like bolas...
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25th January 2010
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Try out the audix om7 too, its a great live mic for male voices. Slightly more rock n roll..superb feedback rejection too.
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25th January 2010
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I have found the kms 105 to be a fantastic mic for any live usage. (well, not for drunk....)
Very good sound. Even though it may pick up some instruments, the leakage is much more good sounding than with many other "live" mic.
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25th January 2010
Old 25th January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
I have found the kms 105 to be a fantastic mic for any live usage. (well, not for drunk....)
Very good sound. Even though it may pick up some instruments, the leakage is much more good sounding than with many other "live" mic.
I will have to disagree. I worked with a band once whose singer had his own 105. They were a punk band, extremely loud stage volume, playing on a stage about the size of a sofa. There was no convincing him that it was the wrong mic to use, he loved the "sound" of it. The sound I heard was symbols and guitar, there might have been some vocals in there somewhere. I wanted to give him my OM7 but he was convinced (probably just name recognition and pure expense).
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26th January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bishopthomas View Post
I will have to disagree. I worked with a band once whose singer had his own 105. They were a punk band, extremely loud stage volume, playing on a stage about the size of a sofa. There was no convincing him that it was the wrong mic to use, he loved the "sound" of it. The sound I heard was symbols and guitar, there might have been some vocals in there somewhere. I wanted to give him my OM7 but he was convinced (probably just name recognition and pure expense).
But bad singer and/or bad mic technique is not the fault of the mic itself. If the stage is small, overly loud, no mic would help. Even worse if the singer is not top notch.
I have worked with a singer who was so "talented", that even an sm58 heard more drums than his voice. It was NOT the sm58's fault.
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26th January 2010
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Of course, but in your situation do you think grabbing a 105 would have been the answer? I'm not excusing bad mic technique; I'm saying that there are different tools for different jobs. A loud and small stage is not the right application for this tool.
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26th January 2010
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I have to agree with Thomas here - small loud stages are best handled with less sensitive dynamics, I think. I like the KMS105, but its good sensitivity can be a problem in this situation. But I agree with you that, for the most part, the sound quality of the leakage is pretty decent for a handheld mic.

Beta 58 might be a choice if you desire the hypercard - I know there are others, but the 58's (beta and SM) are often a default choice for me since they are so ubiquitous and predictable.
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26th January 2010
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Quote:
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I have to agree with Thomas here - small loud stages are best handled with less sensitive dynamics, I think. I like the KMS105, but its good sensitivity can be a problem in this situation. But I agree with you that, for the most part, the sound quality of the leakage is pretty decent for a handheld mic.

Beta 58 might be a choice if you desire the hypercard - I know there are others, but the 58's (beta and SM) are often a default choice for me since they are so ubiquitous and predictable.
So... back to the OP... male, trained bass/baritone voice onstage with an acoustic guitar. Sounds to me that, with a nice racked stereo preamp (DAV BG1 or similar) and a 105/KSM9 and a DPA 4099 properly fitted on the guitar, the house sound guy might have to work a wee bit to screw up his sound.

Imagine... "leave the channel EQs flat and pad the input... tasty nice signal coming your way..."
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26th January 2010
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The house sound guy won't necessarily be in a position to take balanced line-level from stage. So the preamp on-stage might be over-complicating things. I'd keep it simple and just take your vocal condenser and your DPA..

You've also got to watch that the DPA doesn't feed back into monitors (or FOH for that matter). All depends...
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26th January 2010
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I agree: keep the preamps at the console end. Sure, a nice preamp would be cool to have, but I don't think it's going to be a huge improvement of the sound. I'm assuming here, but I think the OP is playing small places with less than perfect PA systems. Carrying mics is a good thing because you never know what you're going to get, but plugging in a Grace preamp to a pair of SX100's seems a little overkill to me (again, just assuming here).
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27th January 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LX3 View Post
The house sound guy won't necessarily be in a position to take balanced line-level from stage. So the preamp on-stage might be over-complicating things. I'd keep it simple and just take your vocal condenser and your DPA..

You've also got to watch that the DPA doesn't feed back into monitors (or FOH for that matter). All depends...
Seems like every board I own... Mackie Onyx 1220, 1640, SR32-4, Tascam 1610 (oldie), Soundcraft SR200 (really oldie) and Series Two, and the Allen&Heaths I use on a weekly basis... all have trim pots and/or pads on the input stage. And I know the Gordons I get to use once a year (remote controlled on the stage from FOH) into my 1640 are likewise no problemo and suh-weeet. Any sound tech that doesn't set gains during soundcheck needs a stern talking-to. And, if he's that much an idiot (or they're using a little Fender 6-banger, or it's an "open mic" thingie where it's plug-and-go), just leave the good micamp in the case and settle.

The 4099 is a cardioid and, unless the wedges are screamingly loud (and can't be properly repositioned) ought to provide the best mic'd sound I can imagine in a small club. Or... just plug up to the supplied Behringer DI and settle.

I was just dreaming of a better way for a guy with a good voice and good guitar to enable (with a modicum of hassle) really stellar singer/songwriter sound...
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7th February 2010
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Wow, came back to this thread and I'm surprised at the large amount of constructive feedback. Thank you all!

I will indeed be playing smaller venues for the most part, and I am in search of killer sound. My guitar is a Collings dreadnaught CW Indian A, and it sounds damn good. I haven't performed any surgery on it yet, but I'm intending to bore out the endpin and add this baby into it Anthem | Acoustic Pickups and Electronics | LR Baggs .

I'm not sure whether or not the DPA would be necessary on top of that . . . do you think it would make a noticeable difference in the sound? Probably, huh.

I'm also still on the fence between ksm9 and kms105. I like the ksm's versatility, but I know the kms is very, very expressive. Decisions, decisions.
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8th February 2010
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I'm not sure whether or not the DPA would be necessary on top of that . . . do you think it would make a noticeable difference in the sound? Probably, huh.
The DPA will certainly make a difference (in a negative way) to the amount of spill and potential for feedback. It might work great... or it might not, depending on the venue and the gig. If you're playing seated, you can always try a decent SDC on a stand. If that won't work, I expect the DPA wouldn't work either.

Good live sound is about more than just choosing the theoretically "best"-sounding mics. Spill, GBF, and practicality are all big factors.

Since you seem keen on the Anthem, I would get it, install it, play some gigs and have some fun. If you hate it (seems unlikely), try something else later.

As for the Shure vs Neumann, I expect you'd like them both. You could always rent and test them - both in a studio to see how they sound on your voice, and live to see how they cope with that situation.

Or just buy the cheapest one, or the brand that you're most excited about. Then play gigs and be happy. They're both cool stage mics. And let's face it, a good song is a good song whether sung thru an SM58 or a U47.
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8th February 2010
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I believe you may win the award for the most condensed amount of sense ever packed into one post.
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8th February 2010
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I just picked up a kms 105 and am very impressed with it. I play small rooms with a Martin acoustic plugged in and it is way better than the beta 58a I was using. It really is a studio mic for a live setting. I also have been using it to track vocals and it is real nice for that too. It is also very nice for recording the acoustic guitar. I even used it to pick up the ambient sound of an electric bass to mix with the direct signal with great results. The worst thing about it is that it makes me want another Neumann for the studio.
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8th February 2010
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Quote:
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I just picked up a kms 105 and am very impressed with it. I play small rooms with a Martin acoustic plugged in and it is way better than the beta 58a I was using. It really is a studio mic for a live setting. I also have been using it to track vocals and it is real nice for that too. It is also very nice for recording the acoustic guitar. I even used it to pick up the ambient sound of an electric bass to mix with the direct signal with great results. The worst thing about it is that it makes me want another Neumann for the studio.
I agree. The KMS105 is an outstanding microphone. The pattern makes it excellent as a vocal spot in acoustic ensembles about 3 to 5 feet back from the singer. I've also used it on dobro, mandolin, harp and guitar. It is everything I wanted from KM184s, which I happily sold. The 105s are also cheaper.

My KSM9 gets used mostly on jazz vocals. The switchable pattern is helpful when I want a little more or less ambiance. I think the Neumann sounds better at a distance and they compete evenly closeup vocals, depending on the singer. I don't use the KSM9 for instruments because the KMS105 is so good at it, but it may also be worthy for those uses.
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8th February 2010
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I believe you may win the award for the most condensed amount of sense ever packed into one post.
That's a first for me!
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19th February 2010
Old 19th February 2010
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I'm testing a KSM9 obtained from ebay- sounds dark and needs tons of gain... maybe 20db more than an akg 535eb - is this what others have experienced? I'm wondering if something is wrong with the mic...
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