Login / Register
 
protection methods
Subscribe
rhythmtech
Thread Starter
#1
17th May 2009
Old 17th May 2009
  #1
Lives for gear
 
rhythmtech's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin , Ireland
Posts: 2,189

Thread Starter
rhythmtech is offline
protection methods

hey guys,

im sure you've all heard horror stories on lost dongles, strict re-sale policies etc etc.

with that in mind have you any thoughts on an industry standard copy protection device? and is there any moves towards this solution?
#2
18th May 2009
Old 18th May 2009
  #2
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 
7161's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,096

7161 is offline
what about make programmes dependant on downloading components (this only goes for actual daw programmes not plugins i concede)

the core programme is crackable (as it always is lets face it), so crack users either blunder on with most of the cool features missing or pony-up and get download updates to complete the programme features.

i dunno how else you can solve it otherwise, but think of it like printer manufacturers etc - the money is in the regularly purchased accessories (carts), not the actual core-product printer

i also think companies should look at monthly 'payment clubs' for users to bring illegal users into the fold which could tie in easily with the download programme components theme - it's probably about offering cool monthly things which makes it worthwhile joining - you pay a montly small fee which pays for the s/w over a year or so and you get cool free sample packs or whatever each month as well as access to download the full set of components to make the s/w 'full' - this would be not dis-similar to updating a free cut-down s/w version given away with a soundcard


so, subscription sales with bonus's basicaly.

I dont use cubase for example - it would be useful from time to time to have it, but my monthly expenditure specifies always more important purchases. However, if i could join a 'steinberg cubase club' for a monthly pitance via direct debit or other bank debit which i'd not notice, sure i'd join and always have up to date programme and extras if i chose to grab them.

after all lets face it, with companies like steinberg they are selling dongles and thats all right now.

also such a monthly-membership system could capture people early who may become loyal users for the long haul.

every other retailer of goods from kitchens to sofas to tv's etc employ such payment/club methods (or zero % finance) or stores employ store credit cards etc, so why not s/w makers?

to sell in todays climate you need such payment plans imo. everyone does it, thats the key. people want stuff now/today and we have to concede that people 'saving' for things is almost dead as a concept nowadays.

pro users get business loans so they have a route to finance (my company bought 8 grand's worth of music-tech gear for example a few months ago thru the ease of business banking & cashflow) but the problem is people outside of such systems.


i dunno, just thinking on my feet... there are so many porogrammes i'm sure users turn to now and again, but not enuff to encourage them to pay outright in a single lump sum



also is there any way a system could be used where plugins search for a licence key in the host DAW or they wont activate in the host? and that licence key part of the host sequencer is ONLY possible via a connected download which can be cross checked, NOT as a standalone install?


having said that NI's web activation is a nightmare if you find u have to re-install s/w after a h/d crash or whatever - so it doesnt want to be a really difficult update/activate system or that'll simply encourage users to go for the fake version.


and on the same tip, Sony Vegas is so easy to crack the legal demo download & it's probably widely used because of that - in that instance the casual user probaly uses just the absolute basics of the programme, so the download components' solution might work, in that users who try it and want to get more power join-up and download and see a small debit on their bank account monthly until it is paid off - in return they get all the extra components and a licence.


----


also i beleive it's time the s/w industry started valueing independant local pc makers/repairers who cannot get any decent discounts to legaly retail s/w to end users when they build and maintain custom machines - typicaly an indie would find purchasing such s/w to sell on to the user would cost them more per unit at TRADE PRICE than the user could buy it for at a big web store RETAIL price - which ='s no incentive

so the typical custom builder supplies bespoke DAW machines but cant offer any good price on adding legal s/w - so the end user tends to either buy it elsewhere online or go illegal (or the builder supplies the s/w at a loss).

if builders could be used as a network to supply point of build OEM music s/w installs this could help (and establish a bona-fide network of local maintainance technicians)

perhaps it's time the music s/w industry established a database of reliable local builder/techs anyways? - the reason i say that is i believe such local pc builders account for the source of a good 50% of all DAW's in use
viously mentioed 'monthly payment club' existed, such local builders could sign people up to it for a commision etc. anything to encourage a network of legal users and support for said users.

the troube is now, local stores have evaporated and most people buy online distant from the retailer often by an actual country border. if legal s/w was tied in with some local support network this could be advantageous?


---------------

lastly why cant websites which service s/w q&a's sell club-membership and actualy get something back for all the work they do supporting manufacturers products (for no pay or even recognition alot of the time.)

like if someone spends alot of time building and supporting a website which is a basic support site for the s/w title, why cant they participate in some web setup where they can get a commission for getting users signed up for a monthly 'ownership' scheme?


-----


sorry for rambling - just ideas based on observing this debacle for over 15 years non stop - anyways, some sort of s/w manufacturers network is required i think, whatever form it takes. s/w nowadays doesnt need 'hard-copy' boxes and manuals etc and thus distribution costs are miniscule and a s/w users monthly payment club/system could work very well & be cost effective if all manufacturers/authors participated.
#3
18th May 2009
Old 18th May 2009
  #3
Special guest
 
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 11

MiiMCorp is offline
Industry Standard CP device

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmtech View Post
hey guys,

im sure you've all heard horror stories on lost dongles, strict re-sale policies etc etc.

with that in mind have you any thoughts on an industry standard copy protection device? and is there any moves towards this solution?
There is an upside and a downside to this
The Upside:
All your Auths are in one place. iLok is a good example

The Downside:
Hack it once and now everybody's product is compromised
#4
19th May 2009
Old 19th May 2009
  #4
Special guest
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 25

PACE Andrew Kirk is offline
rhythmtech -

You asked about an "industry standard".

The iLok is currently used by 85+ vendors (1500+ products) in this market alone. The original goal of the iLok was to have one dongle that could be used to hold over 100 licenses from many different vendors. The iLok can accept the remote delivery of licenses for trial, perpetual licenses, NFRs, Rentals and subscriptions.

After a few years of shipping iLoks (pre-programmed and license cards) we talked to many users of the iLoks about things they wanted to see. This is how iLok.com was designed. Based on direct feedback of customers.

Some vendors still want to build their own Challenge/Response system (mostly all cracked). The iLok has never itself been cracked or emulated. Yes (before you jump in) some software has been cracked, but not all of it and updates come with new levels of protection. We have an array of tools and those can be used in varying degrees.
The iLok license is the proof of purchase. It empowers the user and frees the software publisher to focus on better products and, hopefully, better pricing for paying customers.

We cannot force any publisher to use iLok. In many cases, end users have urged vendors to support iLok. We have seen many vendors who were considering leaving the industry completely, only to leverage iLok and release 20 new products since then. I think in such a case, users have benefited greatly by those new and exciting products.

I agree that we need to have a better solution for issues with Lost and Stolen iLoks. Today this is out of our hands as iLok.com cannot just give away full licenses based on a customer's word. This is is unfortunately a legal matter for the software publisher. I do know that they try to be fair. However, for every honest user, there are many people trying to game the system.

Just as we added features with iLok.com over the years - we will improve our offering in this area. There are both technical and business issues to overcome. Although I will note that it is possible to use our technology now to offer subscriptions (this was also posted by 7161 on another thread).

We do not want the iLok to be a trap for any user - not in perception or in reality. Thanks again for your comments.
#5
19th May 2009
Old 19th May 2009
  #5
Gear addict
 
matt82aust's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 408

matt82aust is offline
I like the iLok system, it definitely is the most convenient. having all your licenses from different manufactures together is the way to go.

I would like to see options to having a USB key, such as monthly logins so i didn't need to worry about potentially breaking an iLok and having to go through the hassle of sending it away and dealing with those consequences.

As a sometimes laptop user this is a factor in my personal purchases, however in a dedicated studio facility the USB Key is hard to beat.
__________________
Matt Perrott
Sound Designer
www.mattperrott.tv
rhythmtech
Thread Starter
#6
19th May 2009
Old 19th May 2009
  #6
Lives for gear
 
rhythmtech's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin , Ireland
Posts: 2,189

Thread Starter
rhythmtech is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by PACE Andrew Kirk View Post
rhythmtech -

You asked about an "industry standard".

The iLok is currently used by 85+ vendors (1500+ products) in this market alone. The original goal of the iLok was to have one dongle that could be used to hold over 100 licenses from many different vendors. The iLok can accept the remote delivery of licenses for trial, perpetual licenses, NFRs, Rentals and subscriptions.

After a few years of shipping iLoks (pre-programmed and license cards) we talked to many users of the iLoks about things they wanted to see. This is how iLok.com was designed. Based on direct feedback of customers.

Some vendors still want to build their own Challenge/Response system (mostly all cracked). The iLok has never itself been cracked or emulated. Yes (before you jump in) some software has been cracked, but not all of it and updates come with new levels of protection. We have an array of tools and those can be used in varying degrees.
The iLok license is the proof of purchase. It empowers the user and frees the software publisher to focus on better products and, hopefully, better pricing for paying customers.

We cannot force any publisher to use iLok. In many cases, end users have urged vendors to support iLok. We have seen many vendors who were considering leaving the industry completely, only to leverage iLok and release 20 new products since then. I think in such a case, users have benefited greatly by those new and exciting products.

I agree that we need to have a better solution for issues with Lost and Stolen iLoks. Today this is out of our hands as iLok.com cannot just give away full licenses based on a customer's word. This is is unfortunately a legal matter for the software publisher. I do know that they try to be fair. However, for every honest user, there are many people trying to game the system.

Just as we added features with iLok.com over the years - we will improve our offering in this area. There are both technical and business issues to overcome. Although I will note that it is possible to use our technology now to offer subscriptions (this was also posted by 7161 on another thread).

We do not want the iLok to be a trap for any user - not in perception or in reality. Thanks again for your comments.
hey,

thanks for the reply guys.

although i have to disagree with this statement

Quote:
The iLok has never itself been cracked or emulated. Yes (before you jump in) some software has been cracked, but not all of it and updates come with new levels of protection. We have an array of tools and those can be used in varying degrees
whether or not the actual ilok itself has been cracked is imaterial to the discussion. the fact is that a huge amount of ilok protected software is available free of charge all over the net.
although it did seem for a while that your protection methods were winning the war, recently its turned the other way again. if you're not aware of what software im talking about then let me know and ill PM you (as i dont want to be seen to be naming names here)
#7
19th May 2009
Old 19th May 2009
  #7
Lives for gear
 
noah330's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,174

noah330 is offline
If you could get two iLoks instead of one I would like it more. Whenever I have to take mine out of the studio I get nervous.

If I could have one as a backup in my safe deposit box it would be great.

The option to back it up one time would be awesome. Sure, someone may sell a loaded iLok but then if they needed a backup they would be out of luck.
#8
20th May 2009
Old 20th May 2009
  #8
Gearslutz.com admin
 
Jules's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2002
Location: A Yank in London, UK

Jules is offline
I think there IS a iLok back up service available already... but I could be wrong.
#9
21st May 2009
Old 21st May 2009
  #9
Special guest
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 25

PACE Andrew Kirk is offline
iLok.com offers ZDT (Zero Downtime) that provides temps if something happens to your iLok. However, we do not have the authority to give away a second set of licenses for free. The publishers have the option to do that. ZDT was designed after talking with studios those that make a living using the software.

5 years ago several companies gave away 2 licenses but then found it was better to nearly double their sales and also discount their pricing model. They now only sell 1 iLok license per. iLok is just a service. The software publishers decide the rules.

Last edited by PACE Andrew Kirk; 21st May 2009 at 01:03 AM.. Reason: Fix
#10
26th May 2009
Old 26th May 2009
  #10
Gear interested
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Berlin
Posts: 2

Daniel Haver (NI) is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmtech View Post
hey guys,

im sure you've all heard horror stories on lost dongles, strict re-sale policies etc etc.

with that in mind have you any thoughts on an industry standard copy protection device? and is there any moves towards this solution?
I don't think that an industry-wide approach to copy protection is realistic, unless it could be based on some kind of universal security feature that is deeply embedded in Windows and Mac operating systems, or even in the computer hardware itself.

When it comes to copy protection, different companies just have different priorities, specifically regarding the aspect of security vs. user convenience. In general, higher security usually means less convenience and vice versa - a principle which obviously translates to many things even beyond computer software

So the "best" CP approach for a given manufacturer might be totally different based on the product portfolio, the demographics of the user base, to which extent the company is already established on the market etc. etc.

Daniel
#11
2nd June 2009
Old 2nd June 2009
  #11
Special guest
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 25

PACE Andrew Kirk is offline
PACE will continue to develop products and services that software publishers can use to offer license management for their customers. Supporting many publishers in this space has given us a keen understanding of what publishers can use. We have also been talking with end users about what they want and what their main concerns are. We then use this feedback to improve our products. There will always be choices for software publishers. Like any service or tool set, we will look to provide easy to use and affordable tools for publishers so that they can continue to focus on their development of their great products rather than copy protection and license management platforms.

Thank you for your feedback. Good or bad - it is all feedback and we appreciated it.
Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Dickens / Music Computers
10
Macaroni / So much gear, so little time!
4
TuT / Geekslutz forum
3
Prickstein / The Moan Zone
25
snedley / So much gear, so little time!
6

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.