NOS preamp tubes in a guitar amp?

[Vasevich]

Hey guys,

After a good year and a half of silently watching, I finally decided to join!

Anyway, I recently bought a nice 50-watt Reinhardt Storm amp and have gotten sucked into what seems like the never-ending pit of tube swapping (though I have to admit it is oddly satisfying for me.) I have heard mention of New Old Stock preamp tubes like Mullards, Telefunkens and Siemens going for something like $200 a pair. What is the appeal of these tubes in comparison to those made now? Does anyone have experience with them in guitar amps?

My regards,
Patrick

[cortisol]

From what I can gather the machines used in valve manufacture are only getting older. Tubes these days are very inconsistent and most don't reach book spec.

Valves in guitar amps, mainly power tubes, might need replacing every six months if you gig often. The preamp tubes aren't run at high current so they should last.

The mains thing to make sure of are that your valves are book spec and that you are using long plate versions for superior sonics and performance.

[allphourus]

Massive amount of info here on tube amps and tubes

index2

[kafka]

FWIW, make sure you get your tubes from a reputable dealer. You can spend a lot of time and money sorting through noisy or microphonic tubes from eBay. I feel that NOS prices on preamp tubes is a good investment because, as has been pointed out, you can expect years of use from them. Power tubes are more disposable, so it's worth finding those few newer tubes that are higher quality. That said, you'll typically get significantly more life out of good NOS JAN power tubes than most newer tubes, so in the long run, they're not necessarily as expensive as they seem.

[krusty]

The only thing about NOS tubes is that over the years, the best ones (sonically) have been claimed long ago. What you're stuck looking for right now is the best of what was rejected decades ago.

[nedorama]

Originally Posted by krusty

The only thing about NOS tubes is that over the years, the best ones (sonically) have been claimed long ago. What you're stuck looking for right now is the best of what was rejected decades ago.

which may be still leaps and bounds above what's available now.

[krusty]

Originally Posted by nedorama

which may be still leaps and bounds above what's available now.

Maybe, maybe not. It's a total crapshoot. An expensive one at that.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by krusty

Maybe, maybe not. It's a total crapshoot. An expensive one at that.

Which is why you should get your tubes from a reputable dealer.

[cortisol]

That's a lot of trust you're putting in a "reputable" dealers hands there Kafka. I don't think you appreciate how well old tubes where made and the slide of quality as unmaintained machinery sends everything out of spec.

Most new tubes from a reputable dealer are not even at book spec. Said same dealer has a vested self interest in selling you their stock....etc etc

[kafka]

Originally Posted by cortisol

That's a lot of trust you're putting in a "reputable" dealers hands there Kafka. I don't think you appreciate how well old tubes where made and the slide of quality as unmaintained machinery sends everything out of spec.

Most new tubes from a reputable dealer are not even at book spec. Said same dealer has a vested self interest in selling you their stock....etc etc

LOL. I guess there's an argument against everything, now, isn't there? The good dealers I know of take returns. So, no, that's not a lot of trust, but it is recourse. As far as their vested interest goes, if I don't agree with the recommendations, I can send them back. Kind of simple. But I guess if you want to argue that's not good enough, then maybe you should avoid using tubes altogether.

[FFTT]

Since you have been experimenting already, I'm sure you've heard
how even changing out 1 preamp tube in your primary gain socket
can make quite a difference in your tone.


There are numerous vendors, but the only one I trust is
Mike at KCANOStubes.com

Of course if you hit yard sales and thrift shops, you can score some
fine, perfectly good vintage preamp tubes for pennies if you know what
to look for.

[Ryan Coke]

I've got various NOS tubes--and some legitimately used and worn in older ones, pulled out of old amps--and with A/B tests, i've never really seen a massive change, compared to some newer ones that places like Electro Harmonix have put out. Tube manufacturing has got alot better in the last long while, and perhaps in the past, people would react to certain runs of certain tubes being inferior to other runs, or better runs of different brands of tubes, which would certainly help to explain some of the radical differences that people would experience in the past.

There's been a few circuits, like certain tube mics and certain guitar amp preamps that the sonic characteristics have changed in to my ears (some with reduced noise or gain), but I think that tube manufacturers and sellers start advertising or advising wrong when they advise about anything other than color and harmonics. In alot of cases, when mixed or recorded in with a full recording, i've never really seen enough of a change in a particular piece of gear's inherent sonic template, to really recommend one tube over another. Some people may, but alot of times, I think that it's wish fulfillment to satisfy the decision to spend money on really expensive tubes.

I also think that there's perhaps a big difference between tubes (or the same brand of tubes) in the varying stages of their lifespan....if you have tubes that are severely worn out, sometimes that rogue factor can be great. I had a set of tubes that were nearly dead, but they reacted with the amp in that it had a really cool overdriven sound, as the amp's circuitry reacted differently than that of the same tubes when they were new. When I first got into tubes, I had read the frustratingly vague "use your ears, because tube testing machines are only so accurate" thing, but it's really true. It's only when you A/B those tubes in your particular piece of gear, that you really can differentiate the differences between them.

Long story short, with the $200 extra that you're thinking of spending on tubes, you're probably more likely to see more of a difference in the blatantly tweakable features found in different guitar pedals of the same variant (ie: Tube Screamers and their clones), where some may have a bass knob or different midrange sweep....something that you can legitimately alter to your taste and hear the range of possibilities. Even just a really good boost pedal can start to drive and color the tubes' breakup in a way that spending a comparative $1000-$2000 in different tube brands/ vintage/ types would yield.

[Vasevich]

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it! Ah well, it looks like we have contrary opinions. Still, if the tubes these days are so inconsistent, it seems like it might just be worth it to take a look at some NOS tubes if anything because of their longevity.

[Vasevich]

If I can find them without breaking the bank of course.

[drbob1]

There are lots of comparison tests out there, and well worth searching them out because different tubes will work well for different things. A long plate Telefunken at $200 may be THE tube for a stereo or mic preamp, but is probably going to be microphonic in a guitar amp. I like later Teles for their brightness and detail, but I don't think I'd drop one in a Mesa-for that I'd like something a little thicker and more noise resistant. If you have a few extra bucks, buying something like the Emery Superbaby is cool for giving you the chance to isolate the changes from JUST a different preamp or power amp or rectifier tube.

And modern amps tend to be built with the vagaries of modern tubes. I had a hand built Morin preamp, ex-George Lynch that was a killer high gain pre into any kind of stout power amp. It sounded best with 5th Gen Chinese tubes, no joke!

[Vasevich]

5th generation Chinese tubes? ha. The Emery Superbaby looks like an useful tool, I might get one in the future.

For my Reinhardt amp, I am looking at some Mullards- I hear that they are great for the Marshall types. If I am putting them in a loud amp should I avoid those with the long-plates? Will they be microphonic? I don't know very much about the differences between the plate designs.

[FFTT]

If you're going for dramatic improvements or alterations of tone,
upgrading speakers may yield more noticeable results.

Pre amp tubes can be chosen for earlier or later breakup, glassy
cleans vs hairier cleans, smoother break-up and a sweeter top end.

[BrianVengeance]

Matching tubes to amps is like matching mics to voices, you just have to give them a try. Some are going to sizzle and some are going to fizzle.

Failing the time, patience and money, you can give Doug at Doug's Tubes a call (Vacuum Tubes For Guitar Amps and Hifi Audio | Dougstubes.com). The guy knows his glass... just describe what you have and what sort of tone you're looking for and he'll make a suggestion.

He's helped me with retubing my Ampeg SVT4 Pro and Mesa Rectifier Recording Preamp, and I couldn't be happier with the results. The Ampeg took a Ruby and is a lot fatter up front and takes the overdrive from my RBI a lot better. The Mesa took one of his 6x tone kits (TungSol, JJ, 3xPenta, Sovtek) and is actually usable for recording now.

Don't be afraid of the chinese toobs!

[slambango]

NOS tubes are not worth it. Most of the good ones are gone. You're probably buying stuff that was set aside as "B-stock" 20 something years ago for a reason, high microphonics, or whatever. I've never heard any difference in NOS vs brand new tubes, and I've tried a bunch. It amounted to one big waste of $$

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by slambango

NOS tubes are not worth it. Most of the good ones are gone. You're probably buying stuff that was set aside as "B-stock" 20 something years ago for a reason, high microphonics, or whatever. I've never heard any difference in NOS vs brand new tubes, and I've tried a bunch. It amounted to one big waste of $$

The same thing goes for guitar pedals and amps these days--the tolerance of caps and resistors and manufacturing these days is so close that you're rarely likely to get something that's bad enough that it deviates from the best batch of that run. In the past, when components were less reliable in tolerance, that "holy grail" of a run within a certain year or batch was more likely to happen, since the bad to great versions were much more wide in their variance.

[nedorama]

Originally Posted by FFTT

Since you have been experimenting already, I'm sure you've heard
how even changing out 1 preamp tube in your primary gain socket
can make quite a difference in your tone.


There are numerous vendors, but the only one I trust is
Mike at KCANOStubes.com

Of course if you hit yard sales and thrift shops, you can score some
fine, perfectly good vintage preamp tubes for pennies if you know what
to look for.

+1. have been dealing with Mike for 10 years. He tests what he has before selling.

[Ron Vogel]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

The same thing goes for guitar pedals and amps these days--the tolerance of caps and resistors and manufacturing these days is so close that you're rarely likely to get something that's bad enough that it deviates from the best batch of that run. In the past, when components were less reliable in tolerance, that "holy grail" of a run within a certain year or batch was more likely to happen, since the bad to great versions were much more wide in their variance.

It depends on the gear it's going in. Most new amps don't benefit from the older tubes because they were designed for whats available now to work in them.

There is a difference in older tubes, but they don't all sound good. For preamp tubes NOS isn't a must; they last quite a long time. Tested, used tubes will last for a very long time.

If you really want to get tubes cheap, just buy up a bunch of old tube radios, organs, etc and scavenge...those old wurli's have some great RCA's in them...just sayin'...not like I've ever done that...

[drbob1]

So, I checked out your amp, and it could make a difference what tubes you're using. It's not a super high gain amp and strangely all 3 positions are important (some folks talk about only the first tube mattering but I have a 66 Marshall, and even the EQ recovery tube matters to how it sounds). First off, I'd talk to Reinhardt about the amp, he knows his stuff, and if he says that you're not going to get any advantage off a 60s Mullard vs the modern Mullard or Tung-Sol it shipped with, I'd listen. That said, if it were mind, I'd drop in Mullard or Telefunken in the first spot, maybe RFT for the next two (a little less expensive and still good) and Siemens 6CA7s for power tubes. That's a decent combination of pricey and good sound.

[pinkheadedbug]

In my opinion you won't hear much difference between one 12AX7 and another. I certainly can't. But the difference between a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 can be huge, regardless of brand.

[Vasevich]

Maybe I am just imagining things but I hear a noticeable difference between preamp tubes- particularly in the way that the overdrive blooms. It affects the feel for me more than anything.

I play in dirty clean to moderate overdrive territory most of the time and I like to have some good dynamic range between. Some tubes like the Tungsols have a certain nice crisp overdrive when I hit them hard but leave me some room to play lightly and get the amp to clean up. I tried a modern Genalex Gold Lion on the other hand and it just seemed to compress the sound and roll off the treble, making it all mushy and undefined whenever I played a bit harder.

There is a tube dealer pretty close by with a nice return policy. I don't see the harm in buying some vintage tubes to try them out and returning them if I don't hear any appreciable change.

[nedorama]

Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug

In my opinion you won't hear much difference between one 12AX7 and another. I certainly can't. But the difference between a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 can be huge, regardless of brand.

Agree that there's a marked difference in gain from a 12AX7 to a 12AT7 or a 12AY7. However, I'm not sure what tubes you're comparing or through what amp, but I can definitely tell the difference between preamp tubes and power tubes as well.

Mullard's CV4024 vs. a JJ tube on the phase inverter? Not even a contest. And that's a new tube.
Same with JAN Philips 12AX7WA vs. a JJ on tremolo input - makes a big difference.

[Vasevich]

So I scored a pair of nice NOS yellow-label 12AX7 Mullards for the first two positions and dropped in another Mullard from a beaten up Hammond into the third spot

They are fantastic! The amp sounds quite a bit better than before. These tubes really tame the harshness and give an overall sweetness to the timbre. I didn't get fatigued listening to the amp anywhere near as fast as before. They are quite dynamically responsive too. The overdrive is warm and big while being quite controllable. I am definitely happier with these than with any of the modern JJ, Tungsol or Genalex tubes that I tried out.

[Ron Vogel]

Originally Posted by Vasevich

So I scored a pair of nice NOS yellow-label 12AX7 Mullards for the first two positions and dropped in another Mullard from a beaten up Hammond into the third spot

They are fantastic! The amp sounds quite a bit better than before. These tubes really tame the harshness and give an overall sweetness to the timbre. I didn't get fatigued listening to the amp anywhere near as fast as before. They are quite dynamically responsive too. The overdrive is warm and big while being quite controllable. I am definitely happier with these than with any of the modern JJ, Tungsol or Genalex tubes that I tried out.

Of the new tubes you mentioned, only the Tung-sol were useable for me in a Pinceton Reverb I had. Still a little brighter and brittle than any of the older tubes I swapped in and out of that amp. Rca's are my favorites...

[FFTT]

I found a pair of near new IEC Mullard 12AX7's in an old discarded Univox 100.
They now have a new home in the primary gain sockets of my Hot Cat 100R.

The printing on Mullards is EXTREMELY delicate and will rub off with
the slightest touch.

Just one thing to keep in mind when handling old tubes.

[Naindurth]

I changed the V1 Preamp tube of my Vox AC30cc2x six months ago, because I felt it was a tad too bright when driven and pushed.
It had a ruby 12ax7 and exchanged it for a Sylvania 12ax7wa from 1969.
Definitely something I'd do again. We tried different tubes while I was standing in the same spot playing with my guitar. The changes were subtle at first, then it starts to shine. It's not night and day, but it helped me a lot in the search for the right tone.