pre-cbs strats really worth it?

[Leonardo_007]

hi there,

vintage stratocasters can get really expensive nowadays, ranging from est. 12k to 70k dollars and above...

i have a 93'strat and wonder, how different it is to such a maybe strat from 63' or so....

anyone?

thanks.

[Iron Man]

Much difference, as you would read anywhere. There can be good ones and bad ones any year. The late 50's and early 60's Strats were all special. Most sound, feel, and smell great! Great tones to record with!

[sonicdom]

i've seen many, many pre cbs strats and have owned 6 of them. back when they cost roughly as much as a master-built strat costs now. in my experience all of them need a good refret and setup before they are usable and maybe one out of ten is really special. some are just dead planks of wood. if you take your time to find one, you might find that special one...

[tampa]

No guitar is worth what some of the vintage collectors are paying and asking for older guitars. I look at this way, if I have to worry about breaking it or having it stolen because of it's value, it's not much use to me. Like others have said every once in a while you come across a really nice one and they are nice to own if you don't have to remortgage your house to get one.

[drbob1]

The good news for players is that strats have taken a BIG hit in the recession. The stuff that was pure unobtanium for a few years (unmolested, "collectors" quality) is now out there for not completely ridiculous prices (like $10k will get you a nice guitar, which is not excessive compared to some luthier built new guitars). The better news is that the stuff that collectors don't want is down well under $10k. I've been told that replacing my 57 (refinned neck and body, refretted, fingerboard repair) would be in the $5k range.

Money aside, most of the older guitars I've owned (pre-1970) have been truly special. I took my beat up 65 Tele and my 57 to an amp/guitar get together in Minneapolis a few years back, and they compared favorably to any of the modern, luthier-built stuff that was there. I'm a believer in old wood, but I do feel that the sweet spot is in these essentially intact instruments with cosmetic or minor mechanical problems (like changed knobs/pickguards/tuners that bug collectors).

[ripgtr]

I built a guitar so I could leave my 60 at home. Warmoth neck with Brazilian rosewood (this was a while ago), WD alder body with nitro finish. Van Zant pups. All Fender hardware. Great, great guitar. Played it happily for many years. Had a gig come up recently, the bass player has a 60 Pbass so I took out my 60. Yea, it is better. Don't know if it the age of the wood or what, but even unplugged it sounds better. And the one I built is one of the best playing/sounding strats I have played, besides the old one.

I have no idea what it is. I would not take the 60 out to any old bar gig and the one I built is a great guitar, but there is a difference.

Oh, and I bought it back in the 70s when they were just cheap used guitars.

[davet]

A buddy of mine bought a brand new 65 Tele in 1965 that had some kind of mojo. That was great sounding/playing guitar. A local collector bought it a few years back for 15K. It was killer, but I would buy a new Anderson for 1/5 the money. Just my 2cents worth.

[WB1984]

I've never played a pre-cbs Strat. That said, there's some really good builders out there making them to spec with their own hands, and well.

It's not a Fender. It just sounds, feels, plays, and has the same specs as a Fender.

[Leonardo_007]

Originally Posted by ripgtr

I built a guitar so I could leave my 60 at home. Warmoth neck with Brazilian rosewood (this was a while ago), WD alder body with nitro finish. Van Zant pups. All Fender hardware. Great, great guitar. Played it happily for many years. Had a gig come up recently, the bass player has a 60 Pbass so I took out my 60. Yea, it is better. Don't know if it the age of the wood or what, but even unplugged it sounds better. And the one I built is one of the best playing/sounding strats I have played, besides the old one.

I have no idea what it is. I would not take the 60 out to any old bar gig and the one I built is a great guitar, but there is a difference.

Oh, and I bought it back in the 70s when they were just cheap used guitars.

wow....

how i wished i could turn back time...

very interesting comment, indeed

thank you!

[drbob1]

Originally Posted by WB1984

I've never played a pre-cbs Strat. That said, there's some really good builders out there making them to spec with their own hands, and well.

It's not a Fender. It just sounds, feels, plays, and has the same specs as a Fender.

I think if you'd played a good pre-CBS strat you might not feel this way. There are lots of builders who can make you a new strat that looks and plays like an old strat did when it was new. But there's no one who can build you a strat with wood that's been played in for 45 years. There just IS a difference.

[tomdarude]

I love my old `65 pre-cbs sunburst strat, but I think once the vintage prices climb up again and I could get "silly" money for it, as I could have some years ago already, I probably will swap this ONE nice guitar for a couple of new handbuild guitars and two Divided by 13 heads (EDT13/29 and JRT9/15) .... this will be MUCH more inspirational and versatile for writing and tracking than the vintage fender!

I never thought I´d think this way, but this man changed my mind 180°:

Nick Page Guitars

Lucid
Surfmaster
Strich II
Interceptor

...and more of his crazy custom stuff....a recording engineers wet dream...

[McDingus]

Originally Posted by Iron Man

The late 50's and early 60's Strats were all special...

Boy is that 100% not true.

Not even a little tiny bit.

But the internet and vintage market (aka people chasing childhood dreams) have made it appear so.

If you have actually played many 50s and 60s Fenders, you would know better.

The prices are 100% based off people with deep pockets trying to buy their youth back... Oh and the occasional great instrument.

And FYI, most people who own $20K+ guitars, dont play them regularly- too risky to the investment. So there are boatloads of vintage guitars sitting in cases and closets, only pulled out to show off to their friends.

It is what it is.

Christ, even 70s guitars are pulling big prices and those were bad years for BOTH Gibson and Fender... 10+ lb Les Pauls and green wood Strats...

Of course you'll now get the posts from all the people who overpaid for 70s guitars telling you how thiers is amazing...

[robertshaw]

there is no real difference between any of the old ones and new ones there are good and bad in any batch of gtrs. I've played some mexican strats that sound as good as the vintage ones

old Fenders are not like old 50s gibson where they used really good woods
so old or new strat will give you the same basic tone In fact the pickups they put in the new fenders are much better than the old ones. The only cool thing about old fenders is the nitro finishes and they used 1 piece necks sometimes. But the old necks are terrible the warp and bow and back-bow that's why they put the stripe in them. Some of the old fenders a 2pice bodies just like the new ones

50 60s strats are false mystique they all have intonation problems, neck problems and fret issues now and they don't stay in tune very well. they are definitely not worth the money they go for. another problem with them is the bodies are all chipped and they have loads of worming and scratchy pots. If you start modding them to get them to actually play like a real guitar should they lose value. You are in a no win situation.
If you own a hardrock cafe they are cool to put in a glass case. But to play them would be an injustice to a recording atleast ones an average person can afford. Near Mint ones go for outrageous money and if it's nmint you are not going to want to play it. So what's the point?

buy a mexican and slap some low noise duncans in it chaneg the bridge and tuners and youll have a great gtr for $300 usd

[_Ludovico]

If I was a collector, I'd look at vintage guitars. I'm a player, so I look at new guitars (or a little used).

Most of these old planks are museum pieces more than actually playable and recordable instruments, just like very old cars and very old anything for that matter. As others have said, if you modify them , they lose value...so it's can be a tough decision. I remember when I was young, my buddies' fathers proudly displayed their 60's instruments in glass displays, which impressed me alot at the time, but growing up I came to realize that these instruments were probably peices of crap.

As in anything though, there are exceptions. You might encounter a superb vintage instrument which plays wonderfully and sounds gorgeous, but this can happen with a brand new guitar as well. You can try many more new instruments than vintage ones too. Finally, the money you save when buying a new instrument compared to a vintage instrument can be spent on gorgeous amps and effects, which can help your tone alot more...

So, are you a collector, or a player?

[litepipe]

I have both modern and vintage. In the end a nice guitar is a nice guitar. Sometimes the aged wood sounds better. Not always tho. I have played many a vintage guitar that I haven't loved. I have a vintage Guild Starfire from '64. It's beat up a lot but structurally sound. All orig cept I changed tuners.it's an awesome guitar. It's worn in which I like and the wood aged well. With that said I've played lots of early 60's strays I thought I would do anything for and needed up not liking then. Some are really stiff. Same for les Paul's. Played a '52 you could have bought a house with and didn't like it anymore then my '91.

You have to play a guitar first no matter what. Year doesn't matter. Collectors don't care about sound or playability. They also inflate the prices so real players except famous ones cant afford them.

Nobody has ever complained about the sound of my 90's strats. Nobody can tell.

I did just play a mid 60's ES 330 that I would have dropped 6k on. That was a special guitar. I've also played a lot of 355's, 335's vintage that didn't excite me.

If anything I prefer the simplicity of the vintage instruments. Nothing fancy with the tone like on my 90's strat with the stupid tbx tone. I just make sure my new instruments are to those specs.

[_Ludovico]

Originally Posted by litepipe

I have both modern and vintage. In the end a nice guitar is a nice guitar. Sometimes the aged wood sounds better. Not always tho. I have played many a vintage guitar that I haven't loved. I have a vintage Guild Starfire from '64. It's beat up a lot but structurally sound. All orig cept I changed tuners.it's an awesome guitar. It's worn in which I like and the wood aged well. With that said I've played lots of early 60's strays I thought I would do anything for and needed up not liking then. Some are really stiff. Same for les Paul's. Played a '52 you could have bought a house with and didn't like it anymore then my '91.

You have to play a guitar first no matter what. Year doesn't matter. Collectors don't care about sound or playability. They also inflate the prices so real players except famous ones cant afford them.

Nobody has ever complained about the sound of my 90's strats. Nobody can tell.

I did just play a mid 60's ES 330 that I would have dropped 6k on. That was a special guitar. I've also played a lot of 355's, 335's vintage that didn't excite me.

If anything I prefer the simplicity of the vintage instruments. Nothing fancy with the tone like on my 90's strat with the stupid tbx tone. I just make sure my new instruments are to those specs.

You've got many good points there

Comparing old vs new instruments can reveal great improvement or bad improvement, and total vintage specs guitars are often not really better, because vintage specs are often not optimal from an objective point of view.

Also, it took me a long time to finally understand that trying before buying is almost mandatory when purchasing quality instruments...Multi thousand dollar instruments should never be blindly ordered on the net!

Finally, you're right that nobody can tell. You could fool just about anybody in the world in a blind test.

[ripgtr]

I will say they are not all the old strats are the same. I had a friend want to swap me his super clean '61 for my beat up '60. After playing his for a minute, yea, it was a No.

"50 60s strats are false mystique they all have intonation problems, neck problems and fret issues now and they don't stay in tune very well"

That is not true. Mine does not have any more intonation problems than any guitar and less than most I have played. The neck is fine. No stripe in the neck (no need for one, it has a rosewood fingerboard. The stripe was to plug the routing for the truss rod). I also float the tremelo and it stays in tune even when I wack it (for the most part, like any Fender trem).

"there is no real difference between any of the old ones and new ones "
Again, not true. When I retired my '60 in the late 80s, I went thru a LOT of strats - Mexican, Japanese, American. Parts guitars I built. Etc, etc. Cheap through high end. I wasn't happy with any of them until I built this latest one back in the late 90s. It is better than any other strat I have owned except the 60. Both have a LOT of hours and miles on them, so I know them both really well.

I will say my vintage strat is better for blues, country, vintage rock and roll stuff, if you are using it for something else there may be a better fit with a different one.

[kafka]

Well, the finest Strats I've played happened to be late 50's or early 60's. Nothing else compared, even remotely. But we're talking about 4 or 5 out of dozens of pre-CBS Strats that I've played over the years. When you look at those percentages, it's not great. However, I've played many Strats from all eras that compared favorably with the rest of them. I've never played one of these Mexi gems that are talked about so frequently, but I don't doubt they exist. I just haven't played enough to find one.

The problem is that Strats are really finnicky about setup, and there are any number of wear and setup issues that can occur that will make a great Strat feel mediocre. Until the guitar has been set up properly, you just don't know what you're dealing with. It's kind of like an old Steinway (or any piano, for that matter). It takes proper tuning and voicing before you know whether you have something truly special or a dog. In my experience, pre-CBS Telecasters are much more likely to be gems and set up in a way that shows it.

If I were making my living playing guitar night after night, and had to depend on my guitar to put on a show, even when I was experiencing back pain, personal stress, the flu, etc., I would have no problem paying the $15-18k that a great pre-CBS Strat might cost today. But in this case, I'm talking about responsiveness and feel in addition to sound. And even then, something else might come up that I'd want to play. Eric Clapton plays modern Strats on stage, as do countless other great guitar players who have their choice.

As far as sound goes, I can set up one of the better, modern Strats to sound close enough to vintage guitar that nobody else will be able to tell the difference. At the moment, my only Strat is a modern pre-redesign EJ Strat. It's a fine instrument, and I doubt anyone could tell the feel or sound from one that cost twice as much.

[Musiclab]

Let me start by saying no vintage guitar is worth what they ask for them. As far as strats go I've played 57's one of which was very nice the other a not so great guitar. I've been playing for over 47 years now, I remember when you could get a 62 strat for 150 bucks. I had a 63 Jazzmaster and a 63 Super Amp, a reverberocket, a Sears Silvertone Twin Twelve. I had a 67 Firebird and a 67 ES 330. I still have a 69 Les Paul Custom I bought for 425 dollars in 1973.
Hardware seems to be better or at least can be better on modern guitars, by that I mean tuners and bridges, and these day Lindy Fralin makes wonderful pickups. The one era that wasn't so great for Gibson and Fender was the 70's but since then I think you can find a good guitar. One thing I hate is the whole relic and the quasi recreations of older guitars, the bottom line is if you find a guitar that sounds good unplugged and feels good to play and it's within your budget get it.

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Let me start by saying no vintage guitar is worth what they ask for them...

Agree. I mean, I thought the vintage synth market was over the top, but there you at least get a kind of technology that is different, really different than a modern VA or whatever, and really sounds different (better). But a guitar? Find the right piece of wood and you're set to build! Ok, some may prefer really aged wood, but that wood was new at some point, ya know? The rest is all about sentimentality and childhood dreams, as one poster explained it. Not that that is wrong.

Originally Posted by ripgtr

I will say they are not all the old strats are the same. I had a friend want to swap me his super clean '61 for my beat up '60. After playing his for a minute, yea, it was a No.
....

"there is no real difference between any of the old ones and new ones "
Again, not true. When I retired my '60 in the late 80s, I went thru a LOT of strats - Mexican, Japanese, American. ..

But did you go thru a lot of vintage guitars also? If not, perhaps it would be just as hard to find a vintage one that suited you? That would make a lot of sense considering you already assessed that its more about the individual guitar than its age.

[drbob1]

SOME vintage guitars might not be worth what you're paying for them. You can go out right now and buy a new electric from PRS or Gibson or J Frog or Turner and easily spend $7-10k on them. You can buy a mid-60s strat or tele with some wear for that same money or a Guild or Gretsch for considerably less, even a Gibson is easily landed for under those dollars. Are there dogs from the 60s? Absolutely. But a great sounding strat or tele or LP from those days is absolutely as good an investment as a new guitar.

Another example, I've been looking for a dreadnaught. I want thunderous bass, sparkling treble and a warm midrange. I've played every acoustic that's available in Madison Wisconsin, most of them in Minneapolis, everything in Dave's, played thru Gruhn's inventory a few times. Of all those guitars, 2 1958 D18s and a 62 D28 were the absolute best (and that includes a pre-war D28 that didn't measure up). I could easily spend $10k on an acoustic from Fleishman or $8k from Santa Cruz, but the old Martins still kick butt for $3-6k!