Tube Amp cranking levels

[drumdrum]

Hi all,

Just a quick question...

To get the best out of a tube amp, I know that you need to push the power tubes by "cranking" the volume and (usually!) reducing the gain.
But what level volume is considered to be "cranking"?

I use a Marshall JCM 200 DSL 100 with a 1960 lead a 4x12 cab, and I was told that a cranked level is about 7+ on the volume knob on the ultra lead channel. Thing is, at this volume it nearly blows the house down and its too loud for neighbours. I often wonder if that cranking sound is actually around 4 or 5 as even at these lower levels its loud as hell!!

I was thinking of getting a load box to reduce the levels....but what IS "cranking" levels?

Thanks guys! Confused more than anything at this stage!

[django]

i reckon cranking is when you get it loud enough to get distortion. Why don't you get a 1X12? it'll be the same price as a load box and retain a more natural sound

[Jmoon79]

Yes, it's the point on the volume or gain knob where the sound stops being clean, and starts breaking up. It's really more "overdrive" than modern distortion (like a distortion pedal). It's warmer, not as shrill as a distortion pedal... think SRV or sort of bluesy guys' sound. Mostly "cranked" amps with an OD pedal in there somewhere for more drive.

You don't need a Marshall 100 watt head to get OD. Unless you're playing a stadium sometime soon, there's not much need for a 100 watt head at all.

A 5 watt epiphone head for like 100 bucks brand new will get you all the breakup and volume you'll need. 25-40 watts will suit pretty much anything.

[drumdrum]

Originally Posted by Jmoon79

You don't need a Marshall 100 watt head to get OD. Unless you're playing a stadium sometime soon, there's not much need for a 100 watt head at all.

A 5 watt epiphone head for like 100 bucks brand new will get you all the breakup and volume you'll need. 25-40 watts will suit pretty much anything.

Hahaha! Good point!
I got this amp at a steal though at the time, and it sounds great and I can get alot of great sounds from it, with the help of a few effects pedals. I use it more for lead tones and the occasional rock / heavier rock rhythm tones (ala Foo Fighters etc).

However there are a few tunes where I want to go for a Breaking Benjamin kind of tone, and I was looking at the amps that that sound uses. I'm getting a lend of a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier which is a 100W amp so again I will be facing the same problem!

Would a smaller cab make much of a difference?

Forgive the ignorance, but I was under the impression that a 4x12 cab just splits the signal strength across 4 cabs to get a different tone. Would a 1x12 have a SPL level of a quarter of a 4x12?

Any thoughts on load boxes, in general? Some seem specific to certain ohm-ages but I'd say I'd need one with a switchable ohm-age....if one exists.....

Cheers fellas!

[django]

a 1x12 will be quarter the volume of a 4x12. Will work alot better than using a load box as a 4X12 is still gonna be fairly sensitive.

[nedorama]

Load boxes will change your tone somewhat, but given that you can't crank up your amp otherwise and get the tasty power tube distortion, it's a fine tradeoff IMHO.

Dr. Z makes the Airbrake - works with amps up to 100 watts, all impedances
Koch makes one -the Loadbox II. Works in 4, 8 or 16 ohms.
Weber also has several.
Bad Cat Leash
Rivera Rock Crusher
Marshall Power Brake (discontinued)
THD Hotplates are also good, but are unique in their impedance - different impedance with each model.

I'm sure there are many more. I own the Dr. Z Brake Lite, a under 40-watt version that I use with my Bandmaster combo. Tone isn't really messed with that much, but it lets me get better power tube distortion at lower volume levels.

Good luck!

[drumdrum]

Hi again,

First thanks for all the comments. Much appreciated!

I have decided to try a 1x12 amp first, and I was thinking of getting an ENGL 1x12. It would be for recording mostly, and I would have a 30 day return period if I dont like it.

Heres the thing though, the impedance of the cab is 8 ohms, with a 60W setting. The back of my amp (JCM2000 DSL100) outputs are 16ohms mono, and a switchable 4 or 8 ohm parallel jacks. Its also a 100W amp.(Link to pic)
Could I just connect my amp to the ENGL cab via a speaker cable running from one of the parallel jacks set to 8 ohms?
Would the higher wattage of the amp mean that the speaker would blow at higher volumes? I would ideally be trying to get that cranked sound....
Would there be any negative consequences from doing this?

Thanks!

[Ngr]

you need a 1x12 16 ohm speaker cabinet, those parallel outputs are meant to be used with two 16 ohm cabinets or two 8 ohm cabinets (which in parallel are going to be seen as an 8 and 4 ohm load).
60 watt could be enough if you don't use the amp full blast. but since you are buying a new cabinet go for an appropriate wattage speaker. 100 watts at least. choices are many.

BTW if you have four speakers you will be moving 4 times the air you move when using one speaker. since sound is generated by pressure variations through a medium, that in this case is air, it is obvious that a 4x12 cabinet (indipendently from its wattage) is 4 times louder than a 1x12

[drumdrum]

Originally Posted by Ngr

you need a 1x12 16 ohm speaker cabinet, those parallel outputs are meant to be used with two 16 ohm cabinets or two 8 ohm cabinets (which in parallel are going to be seen as an 8 and 4 ohm load).
60 watt could be enough if you don't use the amp full blast. but since you are buying a new cabinet go for an appropriate wattage speaker. 100 watts at least. choices are many.

Yeah I figured that I better use a 100W amp. Makes sense when you think about it. A blown amp is no use to me.

On another point on this, it appears that you CAN run one of the parallel jacks out from the amp to a 4 ohm or 8 ohm single cab. I had a read of the online manual for the amp and it says:
"7. & 8. 4 & 8 Ohm Outputs
For use when the total impedance of speaker
cabinets used is either 4 or 8 Ohms. That is, when
using either a single 4 Ohm cab, a single 8 Ohm, two
8 Ohm cabs or two 16 Ohm cabs."
So seems like you can run it into a lesser ohm-aged amp which is good. You dont have to use two cabs with the parallel jacks.

Originally Posted by Ngr

BTW if you have four speakers you will be moving 4 times the air you move when using one speaker. since sound is generated by pressure variations through a medium, that in this case is air, it is obvious that a 4x12 cabinet (indipendently from its wattage) is 4 times louder than a 1x12

I realise this. I had thought that maybe perhaps the signal got split between the 4 speakers evenly, so in essence main signal divided by 4 at each speaker, but this is not true. Same strength signal to 4 speakers instead of one equals four times as loud!
Learn something new everyday!

[popmann]

I challenge the fundamental idea. The answer is every amp has a sweet spot. Some amps (like a Plexi) that means 9 or 10...Fenders I tend to think get sweet about 6 (as a braod generalization)...

Modern amp builders are really building tonal monsters that dont' have to tear the walls off.

AND...more fundamentally, you can make really nice sounding tracks with a lower volume and pedals, which have improved 30 fold in my lifetime of playing. Barber...OCD...even the DLS, if you want that middy nasty Marshall thing...anyway, you will need to use more compression come mix time because "cranking" an amp is just compressing the ever loving crap out of your signal and breaking things up. The pedals can do most breaking up...you'll need an opto compressor or model of come mix time.

At really lower volumes, you likely want to use more LDCs and ribbons instead of dynamics...but, that's not a "rule"...

Anyway...cranked depends...and while you DO need to push some air to get an amp to sound good, you don't need to dime out a WELL DESIGNED amp, IMO.

[Diezel Support]

When I want to seriously crank an amp with a 4x12 at home, I put the rig in my walk-in closet of my bedroom. I then crank the amp to the sweet spot (100W head which is LOUD) and control the volume with the closet door. Seriously it works very well, I feel the balls of the amps and my neighbors don't hear a thing (well, maybe just a small thing).
I even record like this at home sometimes.

[drbob1]

Um, unfortunately a 112 cab is NOT 1/4 the volume of a 412. The math is kinda complex and I don't understand it, but you won't hear the difference between a 112 and a 412. The 112 will be more directional but it'll still be DAMN loud.

Depending on speakers, you might be able to drop volume by using less efficient speakers. For example, if the 412 has G12H30s, changing to G12H75s would drop the volume by maybe 1/3. Cranking that amp into a 100w speaker will blow it up, the amp puts out 150w cranked.

An attenuator, set to 6 dB will protect the speaker and do very little to change your tone. Set to 12 there'll be minimum tone change, but distortion will onset a bit earlier and it'll sound better at lower volumes.

[django]

Originally Posted by drbob1

Um, unfortunately a 112 cab is NOT 1/4 the volume of a 412. The math is kinda complex and I don't understand it, but you won't hear the difference between a 112 and a 412. The 112 will be more directional but it'll still be DAMN loud.

Depending on speakers, you might be able to drop volume by using less efficient speakers. For example, if the 412 has G12H30s, changing to G12H75s would drop the volume by maybe 1/3. Cranking that amp into a 100w speaker will blow it up, the amp puts out 150w cranked.

An attenuator, set to 6 dB will protect the speaker and do very little to change your tone. Set to 12 there'll be minimum tone change, but distortion will onset a bit earlier and it'll sound better at lower volumes.

saying you wont hear the difference in volume between a 112 and a 412 is a bit of a bold statement. you talk about using less sensitive speakers, but 1 speaker is going to have 1/4 the sensitivity of 4.

[slambango]

I'm happy with what an attenuator (THD hotplate) does with my tone. I look at it this way:

Does cranking the amp through an attenuator sound better than just dialing down the master volume? If the answer is YES then go for it... of course it's harder on the amp, and not all amps are going to respond well to being cranked. Many newer PCB amps don't take kindly to such treatment. I'm not sure about a DSL specifically, but I'd certainly try it.

I usually avoid going lower than -8 db unless I'm just messing around - and use the master volume for the rest... and when I plug my 8 ohm attenuator into just 1/2 of my 4x12 cab I get SIGNIFICANTLY less volume than running at 16 ohms into all 4 speakers. I dunno about the math & theory of it all, I'm just relaying what my ears tell me.

[tacos]

I have a 5w custom tube amp. It has gain and level knobs. (Eq, reverb etc) When I turn gain and volume knobs to max, Volume is very very loud for home and neighbours. So I tried an other way.

I have a Ds-1. And my settings
Tone : 9 clock
Volume : 12 oclock
Gain : 3 clock

When I use ds-1 with above settings, I turn "amp gain" level down to min (between 1 and 2 level) and I turn "amp volume" level up to max. In this case amp volume is acceptable for home and my neighbours. And sound is incredible. But I wonder,in this case, is the power tubes crank at this setting? Because gain knob is at too low and I provide distortion from Ds-1? (but volume is at full)

[litepipe]

I haven't used a pedal yet that truly recreates the sound of power tube saturation. I've tried many. I use lower wattage amps instead. Pedals compress too much. trying to get a 100 watt amp to saturate is brutal. I would invest in a smaller amp.

[Suspects]

Note to OP - If you are still considering a Dual Recto for the "Breaking Benjamin" tone, you might want to check out the new Mesa Mini Recto. At 25-watts, it's considerably more manageable than it's 100-watt big brother...



Dave/Suspect Studios








.: Suspect Studios :.

[TenaciousJ]

I find the magic spot on Marshalls is usually around 6.5 to 7.5 volume, but as others have said it's unique to each amp. You can go higher but I hear a loss of clarity when it's too far up.

You can attenuate the volume but it's not just the power tubes distorting that sounds great; a big part of it is what the speakers and the cabinet are doing as well.

[stetyrrell]

Have a look at the db rating of the speakers also. I have a couple of 1x12 cabs, with a few different speakers. When I compare the g12h100 with say a g12t75 the difference is huge, there's something like 5 db in the difference of the speakers. So a cab loaded with a less efficient speaker could also be a great option

[drbob1]

OK, let's do the mental picture here of a 412 vs a 112. With the 412, you have 4 speakers each getting 25w. If they're 75w speakers, like most modern Marshall cabs, each is going to experience excursion of about 1/3 of what they're capable of. So they're moving air (say if maximum extension is 3/4" peak to peak) 1/4" X 4 X 432=432 cubic inches of air per cycle. A single 100w speaker will likely have a longer excursion, say 1", all of which you'll be using with a 100w amp, 1" X 1 X 432sq inch = 432 cubic inches of air per excursion. You're moving the same amount of air, and even if you go with the 75w speakers, you're moving 3/4 as much air, which would amount to maybe 1-2 dB, you CAN'T hear that difference.

The sensitivity of the speaker and the design of the box make a much bigger difference than how many speakers you're using.

And yes, there can be as much as 10 dB difference, twice as loud, between an inefficient speaker like my original alnico EV 12 (real old, pre SRO) and a JBL D120F.

[Capt Hair]

Originally Posted by TenaciousJ

I find the magic spot on Marshalls is usually around 6.5 to 7.5 volume, but as others have said it's unique to each amp. You can go higher but I hear a loss of clarity when it's too far up.

You can attenuate the volume but it's not just the power tubes distorting that sounds great; a big part of it is what the speakers and the cabinet are doing as well.

+1 to that^

I have the same head OP and I can get a good saturated sound starting around 4-5, rarely do I push it past that. Also play through a 1960 cab, have greenbacks in mine.

[rumbletone]

Originally Posted by drumdrum

Hi all,

Just a quick question...

To get the best out of a tube amp, I know that you need to push the power tubes by "cranking" the volume and (usually!) reducing the gain.
But what level volume is considered to be "cranking"?

I use a Marshall JCM 200 DSL 100 with a 1960 lead a 4x12 cab, and I was told that a cranked level is about 7+ on the volume knob on the ultra lead channel. Thing is, at this volume it nearly blows the house down and its too loud for neighbours. I often wonder if that cranking sound is actually around 4 or 5 as even at these lower levels its loud as hell!!

I was thinking of getting a load box to reduce the levels....but what IS "cranking" levels?

Thanks guys! Confused more than anything at this stage!

few thoughts:

1. to calculate the sweet spot of any amp, crank it up until you hear it sounding the way you want it to. that's exactly where the sweet spot is, for every amp, regardless of what the internetsperts say. there is no magic number!

2. if you're cranking a 100 watt marshall in your house, you will probably have/get significant hearing damage and it may all be moot. 100 watt marshalls are not designed for bedrooms - they are for large stages next to stupidly loud drummers.

3. if you like the tone of a DSL, you probably want a modern tone that is relatively tight and where most of the 'gain' is generated at the pre-amp stage, not the power amp. not saying the DSL won't sound better cranked - but if you want an amp where the tone is defined more by the power amp, get a JCM800, plexi, bluesbreaker, vox, fender, or pretty much any amp other than a modern high gain marshall.

4. not familiar with the marshall cab model designations, but if it's one of those non-plywood scooped sounding cabs, try it through a bogner 4x12 or wizard 4x12 or something woody-er. that will make a huge difference.

5. no 1x12 will sound like a 4x12, but for recording at lower/reasonable levels try a 'cube' style 1x12, like a bogner, cae, suhr. port city makes some interesting cabs - apparently sound huge in a smaller package. avoid open-back cabs for a tight high-gain marshall tone.

6. attenuators will make it quieter, but in my experience (which is limited to a few such as hotplates) they do affect the tone, and the change is more noticeable the more you attenuate, and to get a cranked 100 watt marshall into 'not earsplitting' territory it may very well negatively affect the tone in a way that outweighs the benefits of getting more crunch from your power amp section. but try it for sure - you may love the tone you get.

7. the best sounding way to get power amp saturation at reasonable levels that I've heard is power scaling (google it). unfortunately most amps with power scaling are not cheap, though the selection is improving. when i want cranked marshall tone at lower levels, i use my Stephenson 40 watter, which has adjustable power scaling for each of the 2 channels, as well as a stable of other handy tweaking options for finding the perfect tone at lower levels (including being so overbuilt that the impedance switch is just a tone switch - any cab can be used at any setting - 4ohm cab into 16ohm output? no problem! but don't try this with any amp unless the manufacturer says so!)

8. as others mentioned, pushed speakers (not to mention rattling windows!) are part of the 'cranked' equation, so it will always be a compromise getting that tone at lower volumes.

9. if cranking 100 watts into a 1x12, ensure that the speaker can handle the wattage.

good luck in your quest for tone - but accept that it is never ending, and take satisfaction in the 'good tone days', and forget the bad ones . . .