Vintage amps vs. Amp modeling!! What do u use??

[audio.ys]

i guys,
I m looking for opinions of guitar players and sound engineers in favor and against vintage amps and amp modeling (for a research i m doing for college) feel free to explain your experiences with both.....
thanx
UV

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by audio.ys

i guys,
I m looking for opinions of guitar players and sound engineers in favor and against vintage amps and amp modeling (for a research i m doing for college) feel free to explain your experiences with both.....
thanx
UV

I think you need to be a bit more specific. Is it vintage amps vs. their software emulation attempts () or real amp vs. amp modeling?

But in my own experience recording real amps vs. software is just a whole different process that goes way beyond the accuracy of the emulation. In other words: The software might do an incredibly authentic emultion of a specific amp but the recording process (room, mic, outboard, volume, playing dynamics) is completely different.

Not necessarily better but that's purely a personal thing. I stopped using software guitar amps for the most part (still often use it on bass though) because I don't enjoy it. Playing through a good amp and finding the right settings for the amp itself and of course the mics, preamps, etc is a big part of what makes recording exciting to me.

In other words, amp modelers might give you great sounds these days, they're painless and neighbour-friendly and you might work fast with them but I still don't like it.

A big part is commitment. A lot of people think that the ability to fine-tune the amp software in the mix is great but for me it's the opposite. I want to make decisions in the tracking stage and any fine-tuning is about details in context of the whole mix though with guitars I tend to use very little EQ, etc in general. Having the option of completely changing the sound in the mixing stage only means more time spent second-guessing.

I'm a firm believer that if a specific track doesn't work in the mix it's almost always not only a sonic but also a performance issue. The way you play and what you play is a big part of how it sounds in the end. Of course this is only true if the sound is captured in a decent way but as somebody else here once said: What's so friggin' hard about putting a mic on a guitar amp?

[audio.ys]

thanx for the info, and I mean real amps vs. amp modeling, i think that for my research what counts is the final result.... even though i totally understand that u do it for the fun of the process!!

[frans]

Grossly oversimplified, here it is:

Amps: hot, heavy, expensive and you need cabs which make a lot of noise, and yes a mic or two, the whole caboodle until some cable is plugged into a A/D.
If it's a good amp, it's hard to get there with software, allthough the gap gets smaller. You absolutely can't bang your guitar against the software and make it feedback, sustain notes in front of the cab, have the notes keel over into overtones and all that.

AmpSims: have so many knobs you can easily dial in a useless mess. You have to know what to do and have an ear for sounds, so you know when you actually HAVE dialled in a usefull sound.
Cheap. Silent.

If you know what you are doing, you can get away with either one.
If you don't know much and just want to get a quick and decent sound you either get one of those 5-watt tubeamps or pray that a preset in your software fits your guitar/interface D.I. Z/song.

20 years down the road your software company doesn't exist anymore and your old computers that were able to run that ancient piece of software have gone belly up. Most amps are still runing if you service them.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by audio.ys

thanx for the info, and I mean real amps vs. amp modeling, i think that for my research what counts is the final result.... even though i totally understand that u do it for the fun of the process!!

Yeah, I agree. But to be more precise: Not only do I enjoy the process of using real amps much more, I also think that the final results are much better. For me that is.

Many times I start the recording process and don't like the initial sounds I get. With guitar (both acoustic and electric/amps) it's mostly a matter of finding the right part to play and/or fine-tuning the sound. I'm always amazed how much difference it makes when the 'details' are finally in place: try a different mic here, switch to that other amps there. With software, there's much more instant gratification, it pretty much sounds like a record from the get-go but again, the decision-making process is delayed and often there's a need for a lot of treatment in the mix (make it 'warmer', create some 'depth', etc).

I like options but there's a difference between having say 4 Fender amps that I know pretty well as a starting point and a few mics that I also know will work with those amps and having ziliions of amp/cabinet/mic options on the software.

Even with micing amps there's a danger of overdoing it. I spent some time yesterday trying mic combos on a Fender Champ and the Shure SM 53 / Coles 4038 combo was really sounding great. I tried various mics before that but there are still some left ('Why not try the ole SM 57?' 'Maybe the MD-441 will work here?) Well, I won't do that now for this particular sound and the songs I want to use it on. Decision made.

Had I used software I most certainly would spend time in the further production process going back and forth between sounds. And here's another point: When overdubbing I like to have a 'set' sound that I can play too and add to. If Track 1 has a Fender Champ sound that I worked on for some time then the overdubbed Track 2 will have to work with that sound. So again it helps the decision making process instead of 'we'll sort it out in the mix'.

Lastly, I truly believe that working with real amps (or even going DI which I sometimes do especially for clean guitars) helps me achieve a unique sound.

The tendency with software emulations is that a lot of folks end up with the very same sounds. Of course, it doesn't have to be that way and most people that sound generic also PLAY generic. But I think that the variations in your individual setup, even the room sound, make it easier to come up with a sonic imprint of your own.

[nedorama]

as always, "It Depends."

Nailing Fender Clean - you're only going to get there with a clean Fender amp - Princeton, Deluxe, Twin - I've yet to hear a modeler that does it well, and I own Amplitube 1-3, Eleven LE and others.

Recto, Metal - these seem to nail it pretty well. I don't have any Mesa/Soldano heads, but the modeled tones tend to sit in the mix well and are fun every once in a while.

Power tube distortion - not really. They're getting better, but the complexity of power tube distortion is easy to get on a low watt amp, but tough to nail well.

I have my 4 tube amps that I can use for cleans or grit, but if I'm looking for more metal, Amplitube, Eleven, or even the Sansamp do well.

Plugins are also great for late night practicing when family is asleep and you can't turn up the amp at all - I used to have a MP1 preamp into an SPX90 into an ADA Microcab. Great for recording over the top distorted guitar, not great for live. When the MP1 died I was able to get everything I needed from real amps and plugins.

Best of both worlds - place a DI in front of your guitar amp and record a clean signal and mic'd amp; you then can either put your guitar sounds through plugins, or buy a reamper (Radial has a good one for $99) and then you can play what you just played through your amp or a studio's amp at the right impedance.

[litepipe]

I'm totally into technology when it's used to create something new. Some of the real time effect tweaking you can do in say ableton can be pretty amazing. However, I'm not a fan of amp simulators. To me they sound or feel nothing like the originals. The claims that they do are ridiculous. I can't stand using them on sessions. I'll use whatever the producer is paying me to do, but those sims aren't pleasurable.

They just don't have any air and they don't respond to your dynamics as well. I also find that they stack weird in a mix. One may sound fine but several blur because they're one dimensional. An amp is part of the instrument. Amp sims are like midi piano. Yuck.

Ofcourse good work can be created with anything. And some people don't have the option of using amps. You make do with what is accessible. The point is just to create.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by litepipe

I'm totally into technology when it's used to create something new. Some of the real time effect tweaking you can do in say ableton can be pretty amazing. However, I'm not a fan of amp simulators. To me they sound or feel nothing like the originals. The claims that they do are ridiculous. I can't stand using them on sessions. I'll use whatever the producer is paying me to do, but those sims aren't pleasurable.

They just don't have any air and they don't respond to your dynamics as well. I also find that they stack weird in a mix. One may sound fine but several blur because they're one dimensional. An amp is part of the instrument. Amp sims are like midi piano. Yuck.

Ofcourse good work can be created with anything. And some people don't have the option of using amps. You make do with what is accessible. The point is just to create.

I totally agree with everything you say.

And it's part of the reason that whenever I do use a simulator, it's either the Sans-Amp PSA-1 hardware or the Plug-in version of it. (A digital modeling of a hardware modeler ) Even though the Sans-Amp was created as an 'amp simulator' it's very different sounding but useful because of that. Since I don't have a great Vox amp (yet), the PSA-1 is sometimes good at getting a similar 'multi-band' complexity for overdriven sounds.

As you said, the goal is to create but I'm always mildly amused when yet another 'game changer' emulation hits the marketplace with Artist X claiming he won't use real amps anymore because this new tool sounds so fantastic....and Father Christmas is alive somewhere too.

[appleburger]

amp sims are okay when used for like a rhythm backing track in a pop song or something insignificant. but if you're doing guitar rock, blues, or anything else where the guitar is featured as a major instrument where tone actually matters then sims just don't cut it. i've tried a million different sims a million different ways and its just not the same.

[masaom]

Originally Posted by audio.ys

i guys,
I m looking for opinions of guitar players and sound engineers in favor and against vintage amps and amp modeling (for a research i m doing for college) feel free to explain your experiences with both.....
thanx
UV

meh... i have a line6 podhd, but i dont use it anymore because i dont like the tone i get from it. well actually, I DID LIKE IT, but not comparing it
to the real thing; it just sounds... fake? i don't the sound is very flat in
my opinion, and though you can get some real nice mods going on,
the tone still comes off really sharp, or really flat.(when say flat or sharp, i dont mean the note is flat or sharp, but the actual tone of the guitar and amp. it feels really digital)

with a real tube amp, the mids are more apparent... in my opinion. the sound is so much more vibrant and full as well.

i never tried a axe-fx and i am not really interested in getting one at the moment(even though i was a month ago), but its in a league of its own for digital emulation of amps.

but to be honest; i am incredibly happy with the tone i get from the real thing. one downside is that guitarist can be careless and do something stupid like run an amp without a load(which i just did recently) ~ the amp seems fine, but if my tubes last months instead of years, then i just fudged up my transformer... ~ you figure that with new technology they can protect you from your own idiocy(in this case, my carelessness to check if i plugged it in or not). aside from that, yeah; tube amps are awesome.

[Dean Roddey]

I started with a POD XT, then Amplitube 2, then finally real amps. Ultimately, the real amp is the only way to go, IMO. Real amps can sound bad in a good way that just can't be emulated really, and the infinity of possibilities for mic'ing with a real amp in a real space would be very hard to emulate indeed.

As mentioned above, if that's all you can do, then do it and don't appologize. By any means necessary and all that. But good sounding small amps are not super-expensive these days. Even vintage, you can grab 70s Champs and VibroChamps for quite reasonable prices and they sound great for recording. And there are the Tiny Terrors, Microbabies, Night Trains, etc...

[Apprentice]

I mainly use three amps: Blackface Fender Bassman (for blues & blues rock,) Vox AC30 (for pop & rock,) and Roland JC-77 (for clean pop & jazz.) I also have Korg Pandora PX4D, which features more than enough amp modeling & effects, mostly for practice. I like the drum machine feature in the Pandora; it makes the practice so much more entertaining than just listening to a metronome.

Personally, I only use amp-modeling devices for practices only, when I don't wanna wake up my family & neighbors in the middle of the night. For live gigs & recording, I always prefer the real amps for two reasons.

1. I absolutely love the tube overdrive & distortion compare to the modeling gadgets.

2. I like to add character with different mics and cabs when recording.

Have fun w/ your research!

[appleburger]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

vintage, you can grab 70s Champs and VibroChamps for quite reasonable prices and they sound great for recording.

Yes! This! I picked up a '76 Champ for $400 and it blows me away with how good it sounds and records. Amp sims can't touch this thing!

[popmann]

There's another option you're missing for your paper...modern amps built like they were built in the era you call "vintage". That's what 3/4 of my amp collection is--hand built P2P amps based on various classic topologies with various twists to make them more useful when not "on ten".

[Lance Lawson]

If you want real use real vintage amps. If you want realistic use simulators Most people will never know the difference or even think about the difference. Heck most people won't even know what it is they're supposed to be hearing anyway.

[django]

i've tried to get on with pods etc, but i can never quite nail a decent distortion sound and the highs always tend to sound kind've bad. Personally love just sticking a mic in front of a cab and cranking a head up to get an awesome sound.

[Kiwi]

I've played with a variety of real amps and FX, and digital hardware and software. I own Orange & Epiphone tube amps, for nostalgia and no-brainer jamming really. I've recently purchased a Pod HD, to complement my Pod X3 Live and Pod XT.

For studio use - there are no rules. Anything that you like the sound of in a mix is fair game. Many of the classic rock tones that I love came from DI guitars, or solid state amps. In general, I 'get' why tube amps are popular, but the importance is high over-rated, imo. Obviously very genre specific.

The Line6 stuff (and digital hardware & software in general) can be easily misused and misunderstood. The damn things are *so* flexible and tweakable, that if anyone complains that they don't like what they hear, it's most probably their own fault? "Too bright"? - there are a million ways to make them as dull as you want them to be ...

In fairness - I bought my Pod XT, and after a short honeymoon period I abandoned it and eventually bought the tube amps, and a whole bunch of Sansamp stuff which is very good in it's own right.

I started using the Pod XT again, just for silent practice, and once I learned how to tweak it inside out, I found a new respect for it. The new Pod HD takes it to a new level: i'm definately loving it, but it's still honeymoon period so don't believe me yet.

I've gone wireless for live use (Line6 G90 & V70) and I like to use midi control for automated program changes and automated effects. The precision and repeatability is perfect for working with complex backing tracks.

As much as I respect real tube amps, i've suffered through some truely horrendous guitar tones from big name players in live concerts. They might have loved what they were hearing on stage (although I seriously doubt it), but what translates through the front of house can be totally different. I have no doubt in my mind a Pod direct into the FOH would have sounded much better. But - the player has to feel happy to deliver a great performance.

It's very much personal preference. Some Tube amps are great. Some suck. Some digital amp modelers are great. Some suck. Some players can get great tones out of either - others can't.

The average music listener probably couldn't tell the difference or care if they could. If it works for the song, it's good.

[mdme_sadie]

Real amps for feel and sound. Amp sims for convenience and fun.