Amp thoughts.. Suggestions..

[lucidphreak]

Greetings..

I've been playing melodic/progressive/heavy metal pretty much all my life - since i was around 8 or 9 or so (late 70's jamming to kiss tunes) and have become what i would like to think at least a decent guitarist.

now, in my late 30's - i'm interested in going from the amp modelling amps/effects i've used for the past 10-12 years to something else. reason being is that i have played in 2 guitar bands my entire life and the sound i was able to get with my line6 gear fit in well with the other guy.

now though, i am recording and will most likely be playing out as a single guitarist with a keyboard/noisemaker guy standing where the other guitarist used to be. with that said, i feel like i need to bring my tone up a notch.

i play a jackson PC-1, ibanez rg-3120, and schecter C1+ with the possibility of adding a Brian Moore guitar at some point.

the sound i prefer is similar to the following:

fates warning - parallels - especially the rythym tone of "life in still water"

cynic - traced in air - especially the clean tones

dream theater - images and words - pull me under clean tones

as well as newer bands such as balance of power, pagans mind, zero hour, W.E.T., etc..

with that said - a pretty heavy, and VERY punchy bottom, signing leads with sustain for days, and a pretty jazzy and full clean sound.

effects will be limited to BBE sonic maximizer, chorus, delay, verb, and maybe a hush if needed.

i was pondering a bogner alchemist to get me into "boutique" amp territory without taking a lien against the house, but now i'm reading that its not really the appropriate amp for the type of music i'm doing ..

there are some sound samples of the Carvin V3 that sound pretty tasty - but i dont hear people talk about that amp much.

if anyone here shares my views on good tone, and the styles i've mentioned, i would be interested in hearing some thoughts on amps to check out...

thanks..

[BLUElightCory]

You owe it to yourself to look around for an older Mesa DC-5 or DC-10, or a newer Mesa F-50 or F-100. These are some solid, versatile amps that can be found for $500-800 on the used market.

[ehrkeith]

You can get a ton of ton from a Mesa Dual or Triple Rectifier. They are legendary heavy metal amps. You can pretty much get a Mesa Rectifier Recording Pre amp and a Mesa Stereo 1:100 stereo amplifier which is all rack mount and it gives you every rectifier sound you could want in 4 rack spaces. then just mount Sonic maximizer, Korg Tuner, and ISP decimator pro rack G string or whatever.

The rectifier and amp alone will cost a 1000 but its pretty much the last amp you'll ever have to buy and thats not bad for 2 heads in one pretty much.

If not that check out maybe a peavey XXX or 6505 or 6505+

Whatever you end up getting shopping used saves a ton, ebay ftw

thats just my opinion though,

[badhorsie777]

I gotta second the mesa recommendation. As a previous DC-5 owner, one of these babies will do you just fine. My old band mate used a dual rectifier and it's just sick. The preamp mentioned above would be ideal, because it'll have the most variety, and make recording super simple using impulse responses (if you're into that sort of thing with your computer... otherwise throw a 57 on your cab).

-Matt

[lucidphreak]

thanks for the replies thus far.

triple or dual rec is the obvious choice.. pertucci, and most of my other idols have used them at one time or another and they have certainly become the image of "metal" ...

i dont play arenas though - and really a smoky pool hall is the likely place my band will be gigging.

with that said, i have wondered if something like the mesa pre along with a 2:50 or 50/50 or possibly even a 20/20 might work for me.

I currently have a Genz Benz GFLEX 2x12 - but will likely upgrade that to a 4x12 simply to have something that rolls and also breathes a little more.

The 50 watt VHT (or whatever they are called now) has been another thought - still with the mesa pre in front of it..

Further comments on what I've said would be appreciated.. would I be hurting myself by getting the 20/20?

[lucidphreak]

and my bad - i see you guys were suggesting the recording pre not the triaxis..

[badhorsie777]

Originally Posted by lucidphreak

thanks for the replies thus far.

triple or dual rec is the obvious choice.. pertucci, and most of my other idols have used them at one time or another and they have certainly become the image of "metal" ...

i dont play arenas though - and really a smoky pool hall is the likely place my band will be gigging.

with that said, i have wondered if something like the mesa pre along with a 2:50 or 50/50 or possibly even a 20/20 might work for me.

I currently have a Genz Benz GFLEX 2x12 - but will likely upgrade that to a 4x12 simply to have something that rolls and also breathes a little more.

The 50 watt VHT (or whatever they are called now) has been another thought - still with the mesa pre in front of it..

Further comments on what I've said would be appreciated.. would I be hurting myself by getting the 20/20?

I dare you to crank a 20/20 on a small stage in a small club Yeah, it'd be the ideal one - you'll be able to get SOME power tube working, and that's a big part of the tone you're looking for.

-Matt

[ehrkeith]

Well with the mesa pre running into a smaller mesa stereo amp, you can power your little 2x12 cabinet then run into the PA if you need a little more sound.

With the recording Pre, you get sooo many tones for 500 dollars, if i had the money id sell my head right now and buy that and the power amp, I wish i would have done that in the first place

[lucidphreak]

and I *do* a lot of recording, so the recording pre would be a bonus there as well......

soooo... i go 50/50 or 20/20 with the recording pre.. am i going to be happy with my line6 podxt live floor board along with that setup, or am i going to need to go TC or something equally expensive?

and again - my sound is pretty cool right now, and definitely fine for a two guitar band - but that is changing, so if i'm going to re-do then i might as well do it all..

i dont really mind the chorus and delay of the floor board - so i assume it will be alright, i just also know that something like a rocktorn prophesy 2 would probably go with this setup much better than the floor board will.. just for another $1000 or so... :(

[Igotsoul4u]

Skip the bognar alchemist. I tried one and it did not sound good at all to me.

[kafka]

lucidphreak - gotta say, your description of your interests has Mesa Mark written all over it. I can't say which one. Anything from a IIB up might suit you. Mesa Marks have one of the best cleans out there. The gainier sounds tend to fall more into the fusion spectrum.

Personally, I'm just not into racks or stereo guitar, so the preamps or 20:20 or 50:50 just don't appeal to me.

[lucidphreak]

Originally Posted by kafka

lucidphreak - gotta say, your description of your interests has Mesa Mark written all over it. I can't say which one. Anything from a IIB up might suit you. Mesa Marks have one of the best cleans out there. The gainier sounds tend to fall more into the fusion spectrum.

Personally, I'm just not into racks or stereo guitar, so the preamps or 20:20 or 50:50 just don't appeal to me.

i've heard good things about them.. i hate posting these kinds of questions too because everything is so subjective - but its difficult to spend the time needed with something like an amp - especially used with YOUR guitars in YOUR settings - so I had to digress and hope that people like have responded would respond.. great feedback thus far.

so the mark series is in my "watch list" now..

but going back to the recording-pre, which i really like the thought of...

if the recording pre "recreates the recto sound" and is tube based, then it would make sense to me that something like a Carvin TS-100, which is known for its transparency, low cost, and volume - would be an excellent back end to the recording pre - providing me a poor mans rectifier..

right?

my thinking is, im getting the warmth and the tone from the PRE, and all the TS is doing is providing power and volume with no coloration what so ever..

from there, saving the money that i have on going with a carvin power amp rather than a VHT or a Mesa power amp, I take the money saved and get the prophesy and a midi board...

?

[tomdarude]

may I suggest you at least TRY that sucker!

Fryette Deliverance120

[lucidphreak]

Originally Posted by tomdarude

may I suggest you at least TRY that sucker!

Fryette Deliverance120

not sure i could argue the sound at all - heard tons of great things about these, and when the SIGX came out i was thinking that might be "it" for me, but then i started hearing conflicting stories and once again became unsure.

i guess maybe i need to find someone locally here who has mid to high end gear and is sympathetic towards someone like me who needs to spend lots of time with gear before being able to decide if its worth it or not....

..ugh..

[nbarts]

Boy, there are so many great amps out there, you should really go out & try some to have some reference at least.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by lucidphreak

not sure i could argue the sound at all - heard tons of great things about these, and when the SIGX came out i was thinking that might be "it" for me, but then i started hearing conflicting stories and once again became unsure.

i guess maybe i need to find someone locally here who has mid to high end gear and is sympathetic towards someone like me who needs to spend lots of time with gear before being able to decide if its worth it or not....

..ugh..

Gotta try it for yourself. There's no other way. Just walk into your local music store and crank it up.

Yeah, I'd love an older VHT or a Fryette. Drool city. The 2150 with a Bogner Fish is a classic combination. Maybe pair it with a Mesa Quad, too. Oh, boy! Now that's a good time!

[FFTT]

It seems to me that you are limited to what your local store carries and there
are so many far better amps out there.

Just to get your bearings, take a listen to James Lugo's 2009 High Gain Amp Shootout.

High Gain Amp Shootout, Saturday June 20th, Hollywood, CA

Here are the clips
Music page of High Gain Amp Shootout 2009 - MP3 music page on SoundClick

[nicholassss]

i have a peavey valve king through mesa 4x12

switch out the stock tubes for something a little better and do your self a favor and either disconnect the reverb pan or remove it entirely. (to save your self from ever thinking you can use it.)

but seriously, 300 bucks used 500 new. wont set you back much. fiddle with it until you get your dream tone.


if you've got some $bucks$ behind it shop around ad get something higher end.

but on a tight budget the vk is my advice.

[nedorama]

Originally Posted by kafka

Gotta try it for yourself. There's no other way. Just walk into your local music store and crank it up.

Yeah, I'd love an older VHT or a Fryette. Drool city. The 2150 with a Bogner Fish is a classic combination. Maybe pair it with a Mesa Quad, too. Oh, boy! Now that's a good time!

Agreed - talking about amps is like dancing about architecture - you may get a little bit of it, but nothing will replace you playing the amps in your style with your settings.

Lot of good suggestions here, but one I haven't seen is on a piece of gear you have - if you're looking at any of these high end amps, please, please dump the sonic maximizer, AKA the Sonic Crapulizer. This is a very low-end piece of gear that doesn't belong in your signal chain once you have a great amp - you'll be amazed at the tone you get just from the amp and cabinet. This is a holdover piece of gear from the 80's when speakers were ineffecient. Sell it or use it as a doorstop, but don't let it into your signal path.

If you don't go the recording pre option, you can get full-bore tones for recording (or PA) from a Palmer speaker simulator - it's what Satriani, Stones, etc. use for both live and recording. Here's the link - JAMS Audio - Nashville, TN. Note that you need a load box to do this - you can't just use any box to play your amp head without speakers, but this does work and it works great.

Where are you located? May allow people to suggest some dealers that would be worth it to check out.

[lucidphreak]

I am in Dallas.. We have guitar center, zoo music, and a few other places..

any suggestions i would happily take.

also interesting about the BBE.. I see stuios with the BBE in the signal chain all the time. not saying that validates them as good, just interesting to hear that they suck from someone.

finally - thanks again for everyones responses. i never expected the amount of response i got and also expected everyone to tell me "get out and try stuff" rather than giving me the constructive suggestions i've been given. makes me love this board even more.

I mentioned the Carvin V3 earlier in my post and i want to come back to it and ask if anyone has any experience with it here - and whether based on what i stated my influences are if anyone thinks it may be a match.

I like the fact that its 3 channel and also that it is "modern" in the fact that it does midi switching.

the more i read, the more i am thinking my path will be similar to the following:

guitar -> rocktron prophesy 2 -> (insert midi controller here) -> power amp or head of some type -> Genz Benz GFLEX 4x12.

the prophesy sounds like it has everything built in that I would need with the option of relying on the built in distortion, or relying on my heads distortion and the ability to flip it all around via midi patches.

i am not an effect freak - but again that is likely to change and i will be going from my standard 4 or so effects (clean, drive, drive with delay/chorus, and a solo patch) to something more elaborate maybe even to the point of having my patch banks follow my setlist..

again - i am embarking on new territory and maybe even creating more of a problem than i need to by trying something new - but I do appreciate everyones feedback.

last but not least, im a computer guy and a total gadget freak, so i fall back on that as last resort.

lp

[lucidphreak]

Originally Posted by nicholassss

i have a peavey valve king through mesa 4x12

switch out the stock tubes for something a little better and do your self a favor and either disconnect the reverb pan or remove it entirely. (to save your self from ever thinking you can use it.)

but seriously, 300 bucks used 500 new. wont set you back much. fiddle with it until you get your dream tone.


if you've got some $bucks$ behind it shop around ad get something higher end.

but on a tight budget the vk is my advice.

thanks for this - i will see if i can find some samples with the VK..

[nedorama]

I'd try here to see what they have you can play: Charley's Guitar | Only the good stuff since 1976

They have Bogner and also Dr. Z -neither may be for your playing style, but as people have said, only way to know is to play then and then cross off your list - or not.

[lucidphreak]

well... i ended up drinking the carvin kool-aid.

after reading more reviews than i care to mention and talking directly with quite a few people I ordered a Carvin V3 head with the V3 cabinet.

i went an odd route and got the GT speakers rather than the vintage 30's as it seems like from reviews i've read the GT's work better for heavy music.

i am assuming that i will eventually want to re-tube the amp, but i am coming from Line6 gear modeling mesa gear, and i am guessing that straight out of the box a true tube amp is going to blow me away compared to the admittedly somewhat fizzy tone i've been used to with my line6 gear.

i customized the cab and head with the navy blue cover and also did the LED option and casters.. carvin threw in a footswitch all for $1300.

last but not least, i figure i have 10 days to sit and brood over the thing and if somehow it just SUCKS - which i dont believe will be the case - I can return the thing.

thanks for all of your comments..