Fender Vintage Champ

[dialectic]

If I was to be purchasing a vintage Fender Champ (silverface), what sort of things would you recomend that I check for? anything to look out for apart from the obvious?

Also...
What speaker and tubes came as standard with these amps?
What speaker and tubes would you recomend as replacements (should it need this)?

Many thanks in advance.

[FFTT]

Mostly make sure the integrity of the circuit hasn't been butchered.

A simple amp like this can afford all NOS tubes if the originals do not come with it.

Speaker, probably a Tone Tubby or Weber Pup.

Still nothing wrong with Celestions and Mullards since you're in the UK.

It's worth an hour of bench time to have a good tech go over it, to
make sure the caps are O.K. and he'll tell you if it needs anything else.

[rogerbrain]

Originally Posted by dialectic

If I was to be purchasing a vintage Fender Champ (silverface), what sort of things would you recomend that I check for? anything to look out for apart from the obvious?

Also...
What speaker and tubes came as standard with these amps?
What speaker and tubes would you recomend as replacements (should it need this)?

Many thanks in advance.

if you are after the 'ventage fender' thing. Jensen has an alnico 8 that would be authentic..but ya gotta break it in they are T I GH T out of the box..play a little bass through it (really..not too loud ..but it will get the surround moving much quicker , ESPECIALLY with a low power amp) if you can find one with TREMOLO and remove the trem tube it will have a bit more headroom.. I put a JJ 6L6 and a Goovetube mullard reissue in valco (simialar output ) sounded fine.... I also replaced the tube recifier with a SS plug in.. it tightened it up enough to use it.



my 2 cents

[dialectic]

Thanks for the post guys, much appreciated and most helpful.

Originally Posted by rogerbrain

if you are after the 'ventage fender' thing. Jensen has an alnico 8 that would be authentic..but ya gotta break it in they are T I GH T out of the box..play a little bass through it (really..not too loud ..but it will get the surround moving much quicker , ESPECIALLY with a low power amp) if you can find one with TREMOLO and remove the trem tube it will have a bit more headroom.. I put a JJ 6L6 and a Goovetube mullard reissue in valco (simialar output ) sounded fine.... I also replaced the tube recifier with a SS plug in.. it tightened it up enough to use it.

I have looked into the Jensen speakers and it appears that they offer two types of replacements for ther Champ - the PR8 and the CR8. Have you had experience of both of these?

Would you mind explaining a little more about the Solid State rectifier. I understand what the vintage tube type looks like etc but how is the solid state version installed etc?

[rogerbrain]

Originally Posted by dialectic

Thanks for the post guys, much appreciated and most helpful.



I have looked into the Jensen speakers and it appears that they offer two types of replacements for ther Champ - the PR8 and the CR8. Have you had experience of both of these?

Would you mind explaining a little more about the Solid State rectifier. I understand what the vintage tube type looks like etc but how is the solid state version installed etc?

the PR8 is alnico magnet and the CR8 is a ceramic magnet.... PERSONALLY I like the ceramic for more bite ..the alnico version is smoother depends on what you want.

the SS rectofier plugs into the tube socket just like a tube but does not use any of the power supply so the amp is (again) a bit more dynamic,

some people really like all the stock 'squish" personally I don't.

stock tube recto and alnico -most squish and sag

SS recto and ceramic the least

but we are talking a champ here.. at its 'tightest' I THINK they are about right.. results may vary

the SS recto should not cost more than 30-40 bucks and the speakers are not too expensive either.. get all and see what you like and ebay the stuff you dont..

[dialectic]

Thanks Roger, great info.

Any additional advice from anyone regarding the silverface Champ?

[3waytie4last]

Originally Posted by dialectic

Any additional advice from anyone regarding the silverface Champ?

Convert it to a tweed champ circuit and it will sound so much better.

[dialectic]

If in my quest to obtain a vintage Champ I happen to find one that power up ok but produce no sound would this likely to be anything more serious than a simple tube or speaker replacement? Just want to be prepared.

[guitarsfrommars]

Originally Posted by dialectic

If in my quest to obtain a vintage Champ I happen to find one that power up ok but produce no sound would this likely to be anything more serious than a simple tube or speaker replacement? Just want to be prepared.

If it fails to operate correctly, it is such a simple amp circuit, that ANY COMPETENT (operative words) amp tech should be able to give the amp life again. It may not be overly collectable, but I believe Fender has made some version of the tube Champ from the mid-1948 to about 1982...Buy it broken and save money if you have a tube amp repairman at your disposal.

I just did a gear swap and got a 1979 in average condition. It's a mono 5 watt Class A circuit. Go in peace and buy used...

Fender Champ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by guitarsfrommars

If it fails to operate correctly, it is such a simple amp circuit, that ANY COMPETENT (operative words) amp tech should be able to give the amp life again. It may not be overly collectable, but I believe Fender has made some version of the tube Champ from the mid-1948 to about 1982...Buy it broken and save money if you have a tube amp repairman at your disposal.

I just did a gear swap and got a 1979 in average condition. It's a mono 5 watt Class A circuit. Go in peace and buy used...

Fender Champ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the reply, its kinda made me more confident in taking a gamble. Just trying to work out a worst case senario cost of a repair so that i dont end up losing money.

[nedorama]

Champ is Fender's simplest circuit, and didn't really change much from the blackface to silverface years. Save your money and get a silverface.

On speakers, the only concern on Jensen is it's not the original Jensen company (a company who bought the rights to the name) so some have found their new speakers to be good, others not so much. I have replaced my Princeton/Princeton Reverb speakers with Webers, and found them excellent people to deal with to recommend the right speaker for the amp and your playing style.

SS rectifier - part of the charm of the Champ is the early breakup you get with the 6V6 and a tube rectifier. I'd get the amp working (no sound could be a bad rectifier tube) before I swapped out the rectifier to a solid state one.

You may also want to fashion a RCA - 1/4" speaker cable - that way you can connect your champ to a larger external cabinet, which can be interesting tonally.

Good luck!

[dialectic]

Thank you for all your posts so far.

If I was to manage to get myself a Champ that still had a working original speaker would you recomend leaving it as is or would it benefit from a replacement? I will be aiming for an authentic vintage tone but will a speaker of this age be too 'shot' to offer a decent sound?

2nd question...
if the speaker does need replacing what in your opinion would give the most authentic, vintage tone - Jensen vs. Weber, alnico vs. ceramic etc, etc.

[nedorama]

Hey if it works, leave it in. You may really like the sound of it. The only must changes are the electrolytic filter caps and a 2 prong power cord - those need to go and be changed to avoid electric shock.

Given my experience with Webers, I'd say the alnico Weber will be the closest to the original speaker. This is my experience with 10", although I would imagine it would be similar for the 8" Champ speaker.

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by nedorama

Hey if it works, leave it in. You may really like the sound of it. The only must changes are the electrolytic filter caps and a 2 prong power cord - those need to go and be changed to avoid electric shock.

Given my experience with Webers, I'd say the alnico Weber will be the closest to the original speaker. This is my experience with 10", although I would imagine it would be similar for the 8" Champ speaker.

Could you explain a little more about the 'electrolytic filter capacitors'. What would be the benefit of replacing these? Is it that the original ones are prone to being unreliable due to their age or do they simply sound bad and if so in what way?

[Ron Vogel]

Originally Posted by nedorama

Hey if it works, leave it in. You may really like the sound of it. The only must changes are the electrolytic filter caps and a 2 prong power cord - those need to go and be changed to avoid electric shock.

Given my experience with Webers, I'd say the alnico Weber will be the closest to the original speaker. This is my experience with 10", although I would imagine it would be similar for the 8" Champ speaker.

Small vintage alnico's can be had for a song and a dance off ebay...gets harder with 10's and 12's.

IMHO, even Weber can't really touch the sound of the vintage speakers...but you'll come a lot closer the more $$$ you spend. I tried a few lower cost Weber's in my Princeton, and wasn't that impressed. The best sounding speaker I had that was a new production was a Jensen Mod. I found a real '64 Jensen P12R, and I literally drooled playing through it.

Now, I'm really not trying to be a snob...I have been through a lot of old vintage gear, and really paid attention to speaker construction. From about 55/56 to 61/62 were some of the best years for instrument speakers, with about 63/64 being the peak. Sometime between 65-71/72 they started getting cheap, mostly it affected composition. I could go on Craigslist any day of the week, find an old organ from the '50s and guarantee to get a perfect original speaker out of it...but find one from the late '60s and more than likely the speaker is torn to bits.

[nedorama]

Originally Posted by dialectic

Could you explain a little more about the 'electrolytic filter capacitors'. What would be the benefit of replacing these? Is it that the original ones are prone to being unreliable due to their age or do they simply sound bad and if so in what way?

Capacitors, especially electrolytic ones, dry out after 30-40 years. When that happens, they no longer serve their purpose. In the case of filter caps, they help to keep out AC noise from the amp. When they're dried out, they can either burst in your amp (very messy) or take out other components, or can let you get possibly electrocuted.

Filter caps aren't that expensive so it's an easy replacement. If you want, have the amp tech save the old parts in a baggie so that if you sell it, you can include them.

[dialectic]

As of last night I am now a proud owner of a 70's silverface Champ which I'm really pleased with. It has it's original speaker which is still sounding good to my ears but I will probably swap its current tubes for some NOS RCA's.

Just out of curiousity I would like to try connecting the Champ to a larger 10" or 12" speaker and try playing bass through it. I dont want to go throwing a load of money at this at the moment, just wanted to try it out to see if its worth pursueing.

So my question is this, are there any cheap speaker cabinets floating around on the 2nd hand market that you would recomend me trying out for this application? Alternatively, I may try constructing one myself so any advice on this along with what type of speaker I should use would be great.

[nedorama]

I bought a cheap ($150) cabinet off eBay that's the same width as my Princeton Reverb. Popped a used Celestion 12 in it and was off to the races.

Make up an RCA-1/4" speaker cable and you're good to go! Congrats and good luck!

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by nedorama

I bought a cheap ($150) cabinet off eBay that's the same width as my Princeton Reverb. Popped a used Celestion 12 in it and was off to the races.

Make up an RCA-1/4" speaker cable and you're good to go! Congrats and good luck!

Was this cabinet an old one with a broken speaker or one that someone had built themself?

Any alternatives to the Celestion speaker?

[nedorama]

It was new cabinet someone had made with tolex, handle and silver grill cloth.

Tons of alternatives - Weber, Eminence, Scumback (very well regarded) - lots and lots.

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by nedorama

It was new cabinet someone had made with tolex, handle and silver grill cloth.

Tons of alternatives - Weber, Eminence, Scumback (very well regarded) - lots and lots.

Sounds good, may try and find a simular type of thing for myself. Regarding the speaker, it seems that Celestion are a standard for many cabs - Fender, Marshal etc so I will probably give one a go.

Is there anything I should consider when selecting a suitable external speaker for my Champ? For example, as its only a 6 Watt amp I'm assuming that a 10" or 12" will be better suited than a 15" as this would probably need a liitle more power to drive it efficiently?

[nedorama]

Lots of research to do, both online on the differences between 10s, 12s and 15s - depends on your playing style and personal preference.

Ideally, if you can find a guitar shop that carries different speakers and will let you bring in your amp and gear to test some out, that's the best way to learn - with your ears. I have been lucky to find a great guitar shop 10 miles from home that not only services guitars and amps, but carries great pedals; I can bring my entire rig down to try out new speakers or a new pedal on my pedalboard. Nothing beats the personal experience IMHO.

[doorknocker]

I just bought a new China-made Fender Champion 600 for about 150 Euros. Love it!

I don't see the need to change the speaker, tubes, etc like every YouTube reviewer seems to suggest. This thing sounds very good right out of the box and surely will be even better after some use.

Folks seem to forget that any amp needs a butn-in period. I know that my 90ies Blues Jr. sounds WAY better now after years of frequent use.

I think you need to use a Champ for what it is, it can be a great recording tool and it can give great focus to a sound thanks to the lack of low-end.

[dialectic]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I think you need to use a Champ for what it is, it can be a great recording tool and it can give great focus to a sound thanks to the lack of low-end.

Dont get me wrong, I absolutely love the sound of the Champ! I have used it on a few sessions now when recording guitar and have been really pleased with the results.
I have also used it for recording bass guitar, and yes your right, it can give great focus due to the Champs lack of low-end and I've found that it sounds really nice when added to a full sounding DI signal. I simply wanted to try using the Champ with a larger external speaker to see what it sounded like and to have the option of the larger speaker in case I felt that a particular recording would benefit from it. I will probably be building this cabinet myself and was just seeking some advice on cab size, speaker choice etc.