Miking Cab! (Which Mic should I use)?

Allan123 · 4th July 2009

Just started miking my cab. Early 70s Marshall Cab, AKG C3000B condensor, straight into PT 002, using PT pre-amp.

I'm getting a really nice tone (stoner rock), but the overall feel of the recording is a little too week/thin sounding.

It's like I'm losing the warmth feel from my Marshall when I record.

I just wondered if you guy's think I should change my mic to an SM57?

In fact I'll record a short MP3 later on and upload for reference.

HMcKenna · 4th July 2009

The thinness might be caused by HF emphasis of the condensor. Certainly nothing wrong with going for a 57, it'll sound like a guitar for sure. Might wanna try out a 421 or a ribbon for a bit more depth and grunt.

Allan123 · 4th July 2009

Hey thanks for the reply.

I've decided to try both - 57 close up and condenser about a foot away.

I should get a good recording!
Thanks

**matt thomas** · 5th July 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allan123

Hey thanks for the reply.

I've decided to try both - 57 close up and condenser about a foot away.

I should get a good recording!
Thanks

once you get them in phase, if you don't you will probably end up with a thin recording

narco

Allan123 · 5th July 2009

Hi Narco,

What do you mean by phase?

**matt thomas** · 5th July 2009

oh, well thats a question that needs a long explanation, but it is very important to understand if you want to get a good sound.

If two signals are similar but not in phase they tend to cancel out to some degree throughout the frequency spectrum resulting in a "hollow" sound. Other parts of the spectrum add together too, so some parts of the signal are lessened, others are increased.

I just googled and came up with this as the first result, I don't necessarily endorse it ( i just skim read it) but it appears to cover the basics.

http://www.axecentral.com/multi-mic-...ng-995589.html

the first thing you might want to try in your situation is delaying the closer mic by a very small amount (the time that it takes sound to travel the distance between the two mics, prob about a millisecond for a foot) .

If you put one of the mics out of phase, and then move things around / delay the closer one etc try to get them to cancel out as much as possible, this way once you flip the mic back in phase again it will be as in phase as possible.

I'd suggest reading up more and searching on gearslutz and google for words like "phase" "multi mic guitar" etc. as it is VERY important in getting a good sound, when using more than one mic

narco

Allan123 · 5th July 2009

Thanks Narco. I'll look into this.

nbarts · 6th July 2009

If you need warmth you most likely want to dial more mids & power.

keiffer · 8th July 2009

have you considered a ribbon like a Fat Head or Trion 7000

you mentioned about having a 2nd mic a foot back. that will result in about 1ms delay or about 4 samples at 44100 between the closest mic and the 2nd. you'll have to move one of the tracks to align them or you'll have significant comb filtering.

Allan123 · 8th July 2009

Hi Sonix,

Okay, so I don't really be wanting to move my condensor that far back do I?

I'm going to have my 57 hanging over the top of the speaker and the Condensor sat in a microphone foot stand. How far should I be looking to push the Condensor back? I want to avoid delay and phasing....
Thanks

keiffer · 8th July 2009

the 2nd mic can be as far back as you like, but you'll need to manage the time difference.

optimally the mic capsules are side by side, as close as possible, and the same distance from the speaker so the wave hits them at the same time.

I manage this by using a Sample Delay plugin and delay the closest mic. I record a stereo track. to align, I invert one side, and adjust the Sample Delay for the least volume. then I un-invert for normal use. I may use the Sample Delay now as an EQ. sliding one or two samples can make a nice difference.

Allan123 · 8th July 2009

Okay well I'll bear all this in mind. I didn't realize miking twice can be such a farce!

This is the kind of recording I'm getting so far:

Send big files the easy way. Files too large for email attachments? No problem!

This is just with the 57. I think I've clipped a little and it sounds okay but not quite as good as I'd like it to.

joeydego · 8th July 2009

I have 3 mics almost ontop of each other, a 57, a 609 and a bayer 201. all dynamic mics, and can be had for less than 500 dollars. You can adjust for phase in PT.

Allan123 · 8th July 2009

That recording is actually awful!
Looks like I have a lot of learning to do. How do you get a good recording!?

nbarts · 9th July 2009

You are overloading something in your recording chain. You need to figure that out first before you start thinking about what mic you want to use. Also you need to make sure your guitar is in tune before you start recording it.

Webb · 9th July 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allan123

Hi Sonix,

Okay, so I don't really be wanting to move my condensor that far back do I?

I'm going to have my 57 hanging over the top of the speaker and the Condensor sat in a microphone foot stand. How far should I be looking to push the Condensor back? I want to avoid delay and phasing....
Thanks

By "hanging over the top of the speaker", I hope you don't literally mean hanging. The 57 should be pointed at the speaker...and with headphones on, move it around until you hear something you like.

Allan123 · 9th July 2009

Nbarts - What do you mean by overloading? Please explain, I'm willing to learn and I'm all ears. I personally think I may have added to much gain via the Digi 002 box.

Webb - I've changed that. I'm now pointing the 57 direct at the cab via a foot mic stand - take a look here:

Imageshack - securedownloadylg

nbarts · 9th July 2009

There is a lot of unpleasant distortion & it ain't coming from your amp. It can be a number of things, including overloading your converters. You'll have to figure it out yourself, I can't tell sitting from here.

Webb · 9th July 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allan123

Nbarts - What do you mean by overloading? Please explain, I'm willing to learn and I'm all ears. I personally think I may have added to much gain via the Digi 002 box.

Webb - I've changed that. I'm now pointing the 57 direct at the cab via a foot mic stand - take a look here:

Imageshack - securedownloadylg

Nooooooooooo...the top of the mic should be pointing at the speaker. It works better that way.

Like this:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1175/...60869295c0.jpg

Allan123 · 9th July 2009

Okay Nbarts - thanks for pointing this out because I'm always grateful of help...

Webb - Do you get a better sound by turning the mic that way?

I'm such a div!

Thanks man!

CrankyRayHanky · 10th July 2009

lol, this made my morning!
I hope you turned the preamp down before readjusting the mic- the volume increase will be huge

Allan123 · 10th July 2009

My preamp is the DIGI 002 preamp built into the box.

I'll fix that tomorrow. I'm looking forward to a better recording tomorrow (hopefully!)...
Thanks

4th July 2009	#1
Allan123 Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 95 Thread Starter	Miking Cab! (Which Mic should I use)? Just started miking my cab. Early 70s Marshall Cab, AKG C3000B condensor, straight into PT 002, using PT pre-amp. I'm getting a really nice tone (stoner rock), but the overall feel of the recording is a little too week/thin sounding. It's like I'm losing the warmth feel from my Marshall when I record. I just wondered if you guy's think I should change my mic to an SM57? In fact I'll record a short MP3 later on and upload for reference.

8th July 2009	#9
keiffer Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Clemson Posts: 317	have you considered a ribbon like a Fat Head or Trion 7000 you mentioned about having a 2nd mic a foot back. that will result in about 1ms delay or about 4 samples at 44100 between the closest mic and the 2nd. you'll have to move one of the tracks to align them or you'll have significant comb filtering. __________________ SLO-Fun with Toad the Wet Sprocket M90-Tribute to a great Dual Rect-All around fun Others...

9th July 2009	#15
nbarts Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 498	You are overloading something in your recording chain. You need to figure that out first before you start thinking about what mic you want to use. Also you need to make sure your guitar is in tune before you start recording it. __________________ Bipolar Music http://www.myspace.com/narcissisticnpd Bipolar Disorder

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4th July 2009	#2
HMcKenna Gear interested Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 29	The thinness might be caused by HF emphasis of the condensor. Certainly nothing wrong with going for a 57, it'll sound like a guitar for sure. Might wanna try out a 421 or a ribbon for a bit more depth and grunt.

5th July 2009	#5
Allan123 Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 95 Thread Starter	Hi Narco, What do you mean by phase?

5th July 2009	#6
matt thomas Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: New Zealand/Switzerland/guitar case Posts: 7,949	oh, well thats a question that needs a long explanation, but it is very important to understand if you want to get a good sound. If two signals are similar but not in phase they tend to cancel out to some degree throughout the frequency spectrum resulting in a "hollow" sound. Other parts of the spectrum add together too, so some parts of the signal are lessened, others are increased. I just googled and came up with this as the first result, I don't necessarily endorse it ( i just skim read it) but it appears to cover the basics. http://www.axecentral.com/multi-mic-...ng-995589.html the first thing you might want to try in your situation is delaying the closer mic by a very small amount (the time that it takes sound to travel the distance between the two mics, prob about a millisecond for a foot) . If you put one of the mics out of phase, and then move things around / delay the closer one etc try to get them to cancel out as much as possible, this way once you flip the mic back in phase again it will be as in phase as possible. I'd suggest reading up more and searching on gearslutz and google for words like "phase" "multi mic guitar" etc. as it is VERY important in getting a good sound, when using more than one mic narco

6th July 2009	#8
nbarts Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 498	If you need warmth you most likely want to dial more mids & power.

8th July 2009	#13
joeydego Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 2,677	I have 3 mics almost ontop of each other, a 57, a 609 and a bayer 201. all dynamic mics, and can be had for less than 500 dollars. You can adjust for phase in PT.

10th July 2009	#21
CrankyRayHanky Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 742	lol, this made my morning! I hope you turned the preamp down before readjusting the mic- the volume increase will be huge