Best Guitar Amp DI for Live Sound to PA

[fleeced]

Hi,

I know opinions differ, but I'm looking for advice as to what is the best (or at least very good) DI to take my guitar sound to the PA

I play a Les Paul into a Boogie Dual Rec into a Marshall 4x12 (I know... but that's how it is!).

I'm currently miking the cab on stage with a Sennheisier e906.

The sound that comes out the PA is pretty dreadful on a bad day, not bad on the best days. I know mike placement is variable and not finite especially on stage and as we set the gear up ourselves.

Is a DI between amp and cab going to help - and if so which one?

I've also tried recording this setup at home into Pro Tools through a Digi 003 ... and the sound is big 'orrible and fat with too much bass.... which would probably explain why I don't like the sound that comes out of the PA at gigs.

Please Help!


(Oh - and PS. I do like the sound I get from the cab itself !!)

[username]

I wouldn't go a di..

Turn the bass on your amp down a bit :p..

point the mic more towards the center of the speaker cone..

move the mic a little bit further from the cab..

turn down the gain a bit..

see how your going then..

[Sascha Franck]

If you like the sound from the cab, you better need to make some experiments with mics and their positioning.
Fwiw, even if I usually do get along fine with any simple SM 57, one of the best solutions I fooled around with for live micing was an EV RM 20, pointing pretty much straight to the center of a speaker. The sound is quite more balanced and round than what you get from an SM 57, yet still very defined.
Not the cheapest solution, though.

- Sascha

[Enginearing]

I'd be trying a few different mics first. start with a sm57. perhaps also try beta57, Audix i5. - have you tried the different HF settings on your 906?
if you decide you also want to try DIing, Radial have some that can take speaker level signal and some with features that are designed with guitarists in mind.

Countrymans can also take speaker level, as can a few others.

[Onan]

I recently got a Damage Control Womanizer that has the best direct out (1/4") I've heard for a guitar. The direct out aims to be amp-like. Not a modeler. Just analog electronics to imitate a power amp into a speaker. All analog. Dual 12AX7 gain stages. I like it.

Damage Control » Womanizer

[fleeced]

Thanks for all the replies - I'll try it all.

I'll try the different hf settings on the 906 - don't know why, for someone who always fiddles with every setting on most everything (I've gone through every available make and flavour of pre-amp tube on the Boogie is search of that elusive special something)... yet I haven't even flicked the switch left and right.....! (I don't know why) ... but will try that first. (Ps. A Tung Sol in V1 with the rest standard boogie tubes was my final setup in case anyone has a Dual Rec sitting around that's in need of a slightly different organic feel!)

I'll try a SM57 and Beta too. I've always heard the 57 is more "toppy" and slightly "thinner" than the 906 - so that might just be the answer I’m looking for. Can't find a EV RM 20 (RE 20 ??) - but will also try and borrow an Audix to try out.

How far away from the cab would you go? (I know opinions vary from almost touching the grille to three feet away ... but nearly every stage setup I've seen has the mic close to the cab) -- I'll try it pointed more at the centre of the cone though.

I’ve never tried a DI - although had been looking at the Radial - is the consensus of opinion that a mic is best if you can? The womanizer sounds interesting - but if I'm trying to get a cab sound into the PA - don't I need a cab modeller/emulator ?

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by fleeced

Can't find a EV RM 20 (RE 20 ??) - but will also try and borrow an Audix to try out.

Sorry, I meant the RE 20.

How far away from the cab would you go? (I know opinions vary from almost touching the grille to three feet away ... but nearly every stage setup I've seen has the mic close to the cab) -- I'll try it pointed more at the centre of the cone though.

Try to go with close micing. It's always the easiest solution for the FOH dude. In addition, when space is tight onstage, it's not all too rare that you might accidentally touch your mic stand. With close micing, the position often isn't changed, and if so, you can easily readjust it as it's easy to remember.
I'd only experiment with positions and probably angles, too. Using a bog standard Celestion (such as a Vintage 30, Greenback or even my new 70s/80) and a simple SM57 I always seem to get a pretty much reasonable sound when placing it almost centered (and without any angle). With the EV RE 20 (which I borrowed for a few gigs a while ago, I need to get me one...) I got fantastic results by simply placing it dead center. The soundguy was amazed to, he told me that he 2as just using "fader up", no cuts, boosts or any other fiddlings. That was using a Boogie MkIV and a Celestion Vintage 30 (in a 2x12" Boogie cab clone), playing a variety of styles (musical gala). I was also using the RE 20 when I mixed a gig of a friends band, he was playing a Fender (the Eric Clapton signature thingy with Jensen-alike speakers, name escapes me...) and the sound was just as great. I was comparing his onstage sound and what came through the PA a lot and again, "fader up" worked.
Not sure whether the RE 20 be the best choice for harder stuff, it might not bite enough (I think that should be easy to compensate by adding a very little of high mid EQing, though).

I’ve never tried a DI - although had been looking at the Radial - is the consensus of opinion that a mic is best if you can? The womanizer sounds interesting - but if I'm trying to get a cab sound into the PA - don't I need a cab modeller/emulator ?

Exactly. The Womanizer, in your case, would make absolutely no sense as you would have to use it in front of your amp, so the cab simulation would be useless.
A proper DI solution would be something like a Marshall SE-100 (also allowing you to drive the power section a little harder without raising the speaker volume), but the cab simulation isn't all that great. The Palmer models seem to do a little better but the loadbox feature doesn't seem to be as neutral as the Marshall one. You may as well not need the loadbox feature at all and simply go for a plain Palmer speaker emulation (which would sit in your FX loop) or a H&K RedBox - but in that case you'd not only lose the impact of your cabs/mics but also the impact of your power amp section.
There seems to be a new king in town which has gotten a really excellent review in the (german) "Gitarre&Bass" mag, the "Two Notes Torpedo". Here's the website:
http://www.two-notes.com/en/Produits...edo-VB101.html
Quite expensive... and it unfortunately does only seem to work as a load box for its line out (in case I got that right), so you won't be able to drive your amp harder at the same volume in case you'd still be using your cab for personal monitoring.

As said before, I'd rather try to find the best mic and position for your style(s), ideally ending with a solution that would work in a "fader up" scenario. And really, try to borrow an RE 20 for a few tests. Personally, I'm not playing with real amps too much right now (most musicals/theatres these days ask you to bring a D.I. solution, fwiw, my choice for those cases is a Boss GT-10 which I find to be absolutely excellent, beating and POD easily), but I will still get me one this year. For the stuff I do it has been the easiest to set up thing I ever used. Place dead center, FOH pulls fader up, done.

- Sascha

[Onan]

The Womanizer does not need to be in front of an amp. Its DI is not simply DI. It is, as stated on their website: "Direct output featuring 14th order advanced analog speaker emulation." Whether it'll satisfy you or not, I can't predicct, but it is a direct to tape / direct to PA device. I like it. It also has output for an amp, and they can be used simultaneously.
Lee

[Sascha Franck]

Originally Posted by Onan

The Womanizer does not need to be in front of an amp. Its DI is not simply DI. It is, as stated on their website: "Direct output featuring 14th order advanced analog speaker emulation." Whether it'll satisfy you or not, I can't predicct, but it is a direct to tape / direct to PA device. I like it. It also has output for an amp, and they can be used simultaneously.

Using both simultaneously is only making sense in case you don't want the sound of your amp on the PA. And the OP wants just that.

- Sascha

[fleeced]

Thanks Sascha - I've got a gig coming up Saturday and I'll try all that -

I've got a SM57 and the Sennheiser and will try the centre of the speaker cone -- I think that may do it

I'll keep you posted !


Thanks to all for all the replies