Bogners at Best Buy?

[dfarness]

It's True!!!!

Bogner - Alchemist 40W Guitar Amplifier Head - 99-021-0215

[theGeek]

yeah bogner talked about starting a line of mass produced (made in china) amps... I'm going to assume they'll sound ok but at $1200 they are probably overpriced.

[dfarness]

Went to their web site. It's split between the Alchemist amps and Custom Shop amps.

[InstituteOfNoise]

They are great! I've been running one of the beta units live since last week and it's got tons of tonal options. One of the guys on the Seymour Duncan forum in the amp section heard me play it out and gave it a glowing review over there. He's also a Bogner Exctasy owner. I was also using the new M13 with it using the 4 cable method. But the delay and verb FX alone on the Alchemist sound great on their own!

Here's his review... about 1/2 way down the page, from B2D...
Bogner Alchemist in action - Page 2 - Seymour Duncan User Group Forums

The clean channel has a chimey factor to it and the crunch channel totally gets you into brown sound area. Plenty of switches for tonal options. 20 and 40w power option. They sound unlike anthing Bogner has made before, atleast to me they do. The manual is available on the Bogner site for specific details on it's operation.

I'll also be using it Oct 10th for a show I'm doing with the Gin Blossoms here in LA if anyone is that interested in hearing it live. Just PM or email me about details if your so inclined. It shoudl also be at the LA Amp show the weekend before at the Bogner booth.

[ewegogetemtiger]

examine the Alchemist owners manual and you'll see that it's covered by Line 6 --

They put the Bogner name on the L6 Spider Valve and now they're making a diff. version under the Bogner name (I'd wager it has L6 effects in it)

Either way, it's a Line 6 amp more or less...probably all made in the same plant

Marketing gimmicks

in the video preview RB says 'It's designed in the US" but he didn't mention that he designed it

I hope they put better parts in it than my old L6 amp that was made with car audio components

maybe it sounds good/okay/great/whatever but it's hardly a real Bogner except for the badge

[dfarness]

Damn! I hate when companies water down their brand to make a few extra bucks.

[BlueSprocket]

The amp is manufactured by Line 6. However, my understanding is that this is a very different amp from the Spider Valve.

The Spider valve is effectively a really clean tube amp with a pod inserted between the pre and power sections. The Alchemist amps are actual tube amps, with no modeling. The effects (delay and verb) are Line 6 fx, but they can be taken out of the circuit by turning them down (its a bypass when the pot is fully counter-clockwise I'm told). If you've ever used the Line 6 delay modeler, then you know the delay effect doesn't suck THAT badly.

Bogner already had their foot in the door with Line 6 after making the Spider Valve, so it makes sense to expand the manufacturing partnership. Line 6 owns the factory they make their amps in, so Bogner probably got a decent deal out of them for it. Can't say I blame him.

[InstituteOfNoise]

It is not a Spider Valve, but a true Bogner design thru and thru. Check both manuals side by side and the difference should be very apparent. Only the FX are Line 6. I think Reinhold would probably take exception to it not being a real Bogner...

[ewegogetemtiger]

Originally Posted by InstituteOfNoise

It is not a Spider Valve, but a true Bogner design thru and thru. Check both manuals side by side and the difference should be very apparent. Only the FX are Line 6. I think Reinhold would probably take exception to it not being a real Bogner...

we should look at the *manual* to see the obvious fact that it's a genuine bogner?

how about popping the chassis open and looking inside and comparing it to my Shiva?

I'm sure that would be laughable.



I've seen no proof anywhere that RB actually *designed* it (he hasn't claimed to, nowhere is that stated, and as an employee of L6 you didn't even claim that he designed it but got huffy at the assertion that it isn't a "real" Bogner -- all we have is an implication by virtue of his logo on it but as we all know, tons of things are manufactured in plants that stick infinite numbers of brands on them that had nothing to do with the design) and I think the consumer/amp buyer should be the one who should 'take exception' to it not being a real bogner.

Weirdly, a local Bogner dealer (of actual Bogner amps) told me he couldn't even get the Alchemist amp -- because it wasn't a Bogner product but a *Bogner branded product.* (his words) -- smoke and mirrors in my opinion.

Anyway, Line6 makes pretty good software (Gearbox is a bargain) but when it comes to amps and especially anything with AD/DA I'll pass. And if the Alchemist amp is made by L6 then that's reason enough to avoid it in my opinion. I owned an AX212 and it caught on fire at a gig. I have a PodxT and the degradation to sound that passes through the cheap converters and associated analog circuits is so bad that it's almost unusable except for scratch demos using tons of distortion. I owned a filter pedal and it crapped out after two years and didn't even sound that great.

Strike three

[InstituteOfNoise]

Hardly huffy! haha! I was just trying to pass on some helpful info and not get into a debate. When I typed that message I was sitting with Reinhold all morning. He was 10 feet away. I should have brought him in to read this. If you need proof he designed it... why don't you call his shop up and ask him yourself. Maybe that should satisfy your question. There's a reason it's on his website and not ours. I can't speak for what dealers and others state since I don't know them. I only know from the actually source. To each his own I guess...

For the record, I've been using Line 6 stuff for 10 years, way before I ever worked here. I've never had one product go south on me ever.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by ewegogetemtiger

we should look at the *manual* to see the obvious fact that it's a genuine bogner?

how about popping the chassis open and looking inside and comparing it to my Shiva?

I'm sure that would be laughable.



I've seen no proof anywhere that RB actually *designed* it (he hasn't claimed to, nowhere is that stated, and as an employee of L6 you didn't even claim that he designed it but got huffy at the assertion that it isn't a "real" Bogner -- all we have is an implication by virtue of his logo on it but as we all know, tons of things are manufactured in plants that stick infinite numbers of brands on them that had nothing to do with the design) and I think the consumer/amp buyer should be the one who should 'take exception' to it not being a real bogner.

Weirdly, a local Bogner dealer (of actual Bogner amps) told me he couldn't even get the Alchemist amp -- because it wasn't a Bogner product but a *Bogner branded product.* (his words) -- smoke and mirrors in my opinion.

Anyway, Line6 makes pretty good software (Gearbox is a bargain) but when it comes to amps and especially anything with AD/DA I'll pass. And if the Alchemist amp is made by L6 then that's reason enough to avoid it in my opinion. I owned an AX212 and it caught on fire at a gig. I have a PodxT and the degradation to sound that passes through the cheap converters and associated analog circuits is so bad that it's almost unusable except for scratch demos using tons of distortion. I owned a filter pedal and it crapped out after two years and didn't even sound that great.

Strike three

It's amazing how much you know about the design, build and sound of a product you've never even seen or heard. Please let me know where I can obtain these abilities so that I may bypass ever having to go to a store to try things out again.

[dfarness]

I, for one, will be heading down to my local Best Buy, soon, to take this thing for a spin. Or then again, I may just go to the LA amp show. I've been wanting to go since last year.

[timmcallister]

Originally Posted by dfarness

Damn! I hate when companies water down their brand to make a few extra bucks.

Anyone remember those Husqvarna motorcycle ads back in the late 70's?

If you do, you'll laugh to know they now make chainsaws...

[InstituteOfNoise]

dfarness, if you go to the LA Amp show, atleast stop by and introduce yourself. I'll be floating around mainly between Line 6, Bogner, Red Iron Amps or Southbay Amps/Scumback. Just ask for Andy Z.

[ewegogetemtiger]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

It's amazing how much you know about the design, build and sound of a product you've never even seen or heard. Please let me know where I can obtain these abilities so that I may bypass ever having to go to a store to try things out again.

How do you know I haven't seen or heard it?

Where did I say, "though I've never seen or heard it...."

Nowhere is it stated as a fact that RB designed this amp.

RB said: "Designed in the US"

Not "by me"

It's made in a L6 factory and covered under their warranty. Those are the facts. You're buying a L6 amp. Period.

The "Bogner" name is on the Spider Valve and his only contribution was a generic power amp section....hardly the stuff of Myth and Legend. Anybody could have done that.

Now this...even if it was designed by RB, and there's no claim or proof that it is, you're still left with L6 manufacturing of it. How is that different than "Design by Mercedes, built by Yugo" -- uh, yeah, that's gonna be one sweeeeet car

Whatever, knock yourself out getting down to your nearest Best Buy to give that new "Bogner" amp a test drive next to the washers and dryers and Alpine car stereos and whatever the hell else they sell down there.

Carry on

[theGeek]

Originally Posted by ewegogetemtiger

I've seen no proof anywhere that RB actually *designed* it (

Didn't he say that he designed it on the video where he was talking about the development of the amp? I'm pretty sure he did... Personally, I don't care what it looks like inside... its what comes out of the speakers that I care about..

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by ewegogetemtiger

How do you know I haven't seen or heard it?

Where did I say, "though I've never seen or heard it...."

When you stated "maybe it sounds good/okay/great...". I would usually take that to mean you've never heard it which I would assume means you've never inspected it beyond the pictures shown on Best Buy's website and the various stuff on the web. Though I'm usually not impressed with most of Line 6's stuff I do usually reserve judgment until I've had a chance to experience the product in person.

[barryjohns]

This was pretty typical about 15 years ago when I as in the Navy. You'd be overseas, especially in the island/asian markets, you'd find highend music gear right there in a Sears type enviornment. Really odd. I bought a Jackson Soloist, paid for it right after someone bought a crokpot.

[ewegogetemtiger]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

When you stated "maybe it sounds good/okay/great...". I would usually take that to mean you've never heard it which I would assume means you've never inspected it beyond the pictures shown on Best Buy's website and the various stuff on the web. Though I'm usually not impressed with most of Line 6's stuff I do usually reserve judgment until I've had a chance to experience the product in person.

Oh, you "assumed"

I can all listen and see for ourselves and still come to different conclusions, no?

I think "okay"
you think "great"
etc., all based on the same data

i.e., regardless of the quality of sound, from your perspective, ...

[ewegogetemtiger]

Originally Posted by theGeek

Didn't he say that he designed it on the video where he was talking about the development of the amp? I'm pretty sure he did... Personally, I don't care what it looks like inside... its what comes out of the speakers that I care about..

No, he did not.

Sure, sound is key but whereas my L6 amp caught on fire I doubt my Shiva will. Reliability, dependability, quality construction, ease of contact with front-line employees, etc., are important to me. Ever try to get a L6 amp worked on through their warranty?

Ever look inside a L6 amp? I hadn't either until I had to take it in for repair. You're buying a simple computer and very low quality transformer. Oh, and pressboard cabinet. L6 is all image and very little substance. The sound is okay for live performance but not durable enough for actual gigging and I will no longer allow any L6 hardware near my recording chain with the exception of gearbox -- which I am using less and less as time goes by. How bad are L6 converters and analog circuits? Try an experiment: plug your guitar into a great amp and dial in something that sounds amazing to you. Then insert a pod between the guitar and amp with everything bypassed (no effects, no models, etc.) just AD/DA and now listen to that great amp sound like a $99 solid state practice amp. Or just play some solo guitar through a pod into your recorder and listen back through high quality monitors and turn up the volume and listen to all the hash and garbage in the background. Ugh!

Since this amp is made by L6 and covered under their warranty service then you better think long and hard before spending money on it. I'm sure it varies on a case by case basis but in my case each time my amp broke down it was 80 minutes of driving. And the only reason I got acceptable service was because there used to be a guy named George who worked at L6 that I knew and had a phone number directly to him and he would hook me up rather than make me jump the hoops others had to maneuver.

[InstituteOfNoise]

Since you like to formulate your own opinions, lemme just clarify a few things. At that point you can can be your own P.I. and investigate it yourself.

* Reinhold did design the amp and worked it through every step of the way. You can believe what you want. I didn't realize this was a congressional inquisition. Like I said before... call him up and ask him. That should satisfy you once and for all.

* Plenty of great front line (and behind the scenes) contacts here. These folks take a lot of pride in their jobs and work. They are musicians too, and build what they'd use, as do plenty of pros. I've seen plenty of cases where folks who do have a problem blindly email and not follow the correct steps to get things corrected. I've also seen them here on a regular basis go way beyond the call of duty for Customer Service to ensure things are taken care of.

* As far as "George", he was the CS supervisor. It was his job to take care of you like he did, just like all the other CS team does.

* Built by Line 6... well if you know anything detailed about offshore manufacturing, you'd understand what that really means.

Further more, I'm not the kind to get into blind debates on a web forum on topics you don't fully have 100% of the facts on. I'll tell you what I know to be correct, unless it's opinion and then I'll state that.

I'm glad your happy with what you use. Stick with it and enjoy!

[nbarts]

Originally Posted by timmcallister

Anyone remember those Husqvarna motorcycle ads back in the late 70's?

If you do, you'll laugh to know they now make chainsaws...

[theGeek]

Originally Posted by InstituteOfNoise

I'm glad your happy with what you use. Stick with it and enjoy!

Agreed!! No one can claim AZ doesn't know good tone. He's able to get great sounds from his gear!

Also, the one time I needed something from L6 they were very accommodating.

As far as you amp catching fire... that really sucks. I've personally never had any issues and I've owned nearly everything L6 has had to offer and I've been very happy with the results. I only went a different way because I got some great deals on some boutique gear.

I still have nothing bad to say about L6.

[ewegogetemtiger]

Helicopter corporate employees hovering over message boards dictating correct thought.

fuuck

You have official L6 forums where you can play thought police.

Designed by RB, by Ronald Reagan, designed by Jesus Christ.
Who cares?

It's built by Line 6. That's all I need to know. I do know about L6 off-shore manufacturing. As you recall, I owned one of your amps. It caught on fire at an open-air festival. Everybody who owns a L6 amp ought to open it up and examine the guts. They'll see just what cheap junk these amps are. In the words of the official L6 repair guy who fixed mine (4 separate times, by the way): "This is cheap ass shit. Just inexpensive car audio components." Wow! Now I think we can all understand why Best Buy is the place to go for L6 and the new "Bogner" amp. The company hasn't built a durable, reliable amp in the history of its existence, they use the cheapest parts possible, and make the stuff in China. They didn't suddenly learn how to make amps well enough to make Bogner amps. If it took the partnership with Bogner to suddenly start making a good amp then, obviously, a person should save their beans up to by a real Bogner made by Bogner himself.

Duh!

Oh well, this is a good business move for both parties I'm sure.

Although, I'm sure that my Shiva has just undergone a serious moral depreciation.

Thanks!

[InstituteOfNoise]

Thanks Geek as always!

And ewegogetemtiger... gee.. you have to flip someone off... nice retort... guess you win...

I'm done here with the senseless banter...

[ewegogetemtiger]

Originally Posted by theGeek

Agreed!! No one can claim AZ doesn't know good tone. He's able to get great sounds from his gear!

Also, the one time I needed something from L6 they were very accommodating.

As far as you amp catching fire... that really sucks. I've personally never had any issues and I've owned nearly everything L6 has had to offer and I've been very happy with the results. I only went a different way because I got some great deals on some boutique gear.

I still have nothing bad to say about L6.

As I said earlier, the sound of L6 gear is fine (for live gigs) in my opinion but that's not the problem. And I would admit that the pod is okay for demo recordings but that's about it for me.

You may be "very happy" but, again, that's not the issue. People are "happy" about all kinds of stuff totally unrelated to objective facts. I was "happy" with my L6 amp until it caught on fire. I was "happy" with my pod until I really started to examine my tracks 'under the microscope' and realized just what nasty stuff it does to the audio.

I used to be "happy" being a grad student but cringe at the thought of going back to that.

Some people are probably even "happy" being crystal meth addicts and who can deny the happiness of the dumb ****s who keep voting for the GOP but that ought to problematize "happiness" for you.

Man I'm in a not happy mood

[ewegogetemtiger]

Originally Posted by InstituteOfNoise

Thanks Geek as always!

And ewegogetemtiger... gee.. you have to flip someone off... nice retort... guess you win...

I'm done here with the senseless banter...

No, you won. You won when I exchanged hard-earned money for a smoking piece of shit of an amp.

I lost a lot. I lost that when I was earning about 12K a year as a grad student (with two small kids to support) toiling away like a slave and eating mac and cheese. I was lucky to pull in $25-$50 a gig and get a beer or two after the show.

I thought a L6 amp was a reasonable solution to carrying tons of gear from show to show. Hah! I bought into the hype.

Oh no, L6 corporate shill guy, you won. Congrats! I hope my stupidity got you a holiday bonus or something. Here's another finger for you, Mr. Moral High Road

Oh no, don't leave yet. Since I have your 'ear' I wanted to pass along some great new marketing ideas to the compnay:

"Just feel the heft of the particle board..."

"That's not bad tone for $5 worth of car audio parts"

"Normally, to get speakers like these, you'd have to buy a budget PA cab..."

"You can update this amp -- every knob, uh, I mean owner, gets a brand new set of knobs"

[ewegogetemtiger]

Oh, and when L6 buys out Husqvarna they can market blow torches as the latest in chainsaw technology.

If you thought our amps were "hot"...

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by ewegogetemtiger

Oh, you "assumed"

I can all listen and see for ourselves and still come to different conclusions, no?

I think "okay"
you think "great"
etc., all based on the same data

i.e., regardless of the quality of sound, from your perspective, ...

Nice, way to take what I said and spin it into a totally different topic. I stated that it sounded like, from your posts, that you've never once heard the amp in person. Then you replied that you never stated that you hadn't heard it. Then I simply quoted where you said "maybe it sounds good/okay/great"and stated that I'd assume that meant you'd never heard it since you don't seem to have any definite opinion on the sound. You know, you really don't need to come off like a complete asshole to make your point. You don't like L6, we get it, you THINK these Bogners are going to be the biggest pieces of shit in amp making history, that's great too but do you really have to come off like a ****** in doing so?

[ewegogetemtiger]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

Nice, way to take what I said and spin it into a totally different topic. I stated that it sounded like, from your posts, that you've never once heard the amp in person. Then you replied that you never stated that you hadn't heard it. Then I simply quoted where you said "maybe it sounds good/okay/great"and stated that I'd assume that meant you'd never heard it since you don't seem to have any definite opinion on the sound. You know, you really don't need to come off like a complete asshole to make your point. You don't like L6, we get it, you THINK these Bogners are going to be the biggest pieces of shit in amp making history, that's great too but do you really have to come off like a ****** in doing so?

I guess so. Actually, your post is so confusing I don't really know. Maybe.

Maybe you just missed the point: sound aside...as is, regardless of the sound, whatever it sounds like, etc. We all have opinions on sound, it's totally subjective.

The only relevant point: these amps are made by L6. They do not make good amps. The end.