Allan Holdsworth's Lead Sound

[Digitar]

Allan Holdsworth's Lead sound has always fascinated me and I tried to post it on another thread but it got hijacked by some of the Trolls and I know a lot of you are interested in unique guitar sounds so I thought I'd try again here.

After many years of research I got one of his lead chains worked out.

Bill Delap Guitar w/single SD Holdsworth pickup > TC Electronics Booster/Line Driver/Distortion > MXR Noise Gate > Mesa/Boogie 50Cal. w/EL84s > Tone settings Gain 8 - Bass 1 - Mid 8 - Treb 2-3 - Pres 3 - 4 - Output 8 > Harness ( a load box that he designed and wired by hand) or a Rocktron Juice Extractor > DBX266a Comp > TC Electronics 1140 Parametric/Pre Amp > FET Power Amp > Cab w/4x12 - 2x12 - 1x 12 V30 Celestion's.

This biggest surprise was the bass being turned down to 1 but after trying it all I can say is that it really gives you a sax type sing to the tone and IMO he has one of the greatest Lead sounds ever. If any of you would like to help us benefit from YOUR research of other players or discoveries you've made, I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.

Rock On, Digitar

[dlmorley]

I have to admit to cheating and buying the Yamaha UD Stomp for his clean sound and there it was! Wide, smooth, rich but not wobbly in any way.
Lead sound I dare not even try as I would have to try and play like him

Interestingly he has been using the Yamaha DG80 for quite a while and I think he gets a great sound out of that for his lead stuff although my favorite is probably his Road Games sound.

[ewegogetemtiger]

Has he abandoned the use of his Carvin guitar model (if not his formal association with the company)? I gathered he was never really that happy with it and they were not receptive or willing to produce a headless guitar version (although, I recall one headless prototype?) I thought it was pretty funny that he had his own Carvin sig. model but every gig photo has him playing a custom Delap

[carlheinz]

It seems he's changing pieces of his set-up often.At the time I saw him,He was using some carvin..(v3?)amp for his lead tone.I saw a THD hot plate.It's confusing as to where he splits his signal and where those volume pedals..(1 for clean..1 for dirty) sit in the chain.

[henryrobinett]

I don't know why people aren't more interested or at least AS interested in the notes he plays as opposed to his friggin' signal chain. I understand if it's engineers, but gather this is guitar player speak.

[dlmorley]

???
I am hardly going to discuss someone's sound if I don't like what they play. Obviously

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by dlmorley

???
I am hardly going to discuss someone's sound if I don't like what they play. Obviously

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm assuming you like what he's playing. But nobody seems to ever ask "How does he GET those notes?" Like where do those notes come from? Why and how is he choosing those notes? Is he using some devices? What is the thinking behind choosing to play like he does?

To me those are the senior questions, because those question deal with the musical sources.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm assuming you like what he's playing. But nobody seems to ever ask "How does he GET those notes?" Like where do those notes come from? Why and how is he choosing those notes? Is he using some devices? What is the thinking behind choosing to play like he does?

To me those are the senior questions, because those question deal with the musical sources.

If I can take a guess it would be because most guitarists don't know much beyond major scale and its modes and even then they usually don't know how to apply them the way Holdsworth and others (Henderson, Gambale etc) apply them.

I'd be surprised if most people here could play (for instance) the melodic and harmonic minor scales in all positions and forget about diminished or whole tone scales.
Without that as a grounding it is going to be pretty difficult to discuss it in depth.

Most guitarists probably just hear it as a flurry of notes that all sounds similar.

I know that Holdsworth himself doesn't process music in these terms- I talked with him at a guitar clinic about 10 years ago- he invented his own musical language which happened to coincide with some jazz theory.

[doorknocker]

o.k, here's some food for thought for ya: I really like Holdsworth's playing but I DON'T like his sound.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by octatonic

I know that Holdsworth himself doesn't process music in these terms- I talked with him at a guitar clinic about 10 years ago- he invented his own musical language which happened to coincide with some jazz theory.

You're absolutely right about him coming up with his own theory. He doesn't even know the names of the chords he plays, in a way he can communicate to the other musicians. Flim Johnson used to have to write them down. But he definitely KNOWS what he's doing. He just built his own language from listening to Coltrane etc..

[henryrobinett]

Yes. Sound has not actually been all that important to me. It hasn't been NEARLY as important as how someone plays, meaning his choice of notes, the meaning behind his choice of notes and how he plays them physically. I couldn't care less about the electronics.

[carlheinz]

Alan's note choices stem from something his mom said when he was a little boy.....no...wait...it's the beer he's drinking that particular evening...Mabie it's random noodling or his thoughts on the balance between light and shadow.I don't think his soloing is pre-planned or based on formal musical training...i.e...."tonight Im going to play more modal with a hint of harmonic minor.

[henryrobinett]

It's certainly not pre-planned, but it is certainly based on "somethings." He is NOT pulling those notes out of his ass. It's IMPROVISED, but not out of his ass. He definitely DOES play melodic minor and various convoluted modes and convoluted, some straight, arpeggios, all based on the chords he's playing. He veers off into multiple substitutions, a la Coltrane, quite a bit.

[Blast9]

yes - very Coltrane-like

His clean sounds are often beautifully rich and "crying" like - with use of volume swell, and as I understand it, Modulation/Delays to get his chorus/ambience.

I really wish he'd turn up his tone control - it just sounds so muffled and claustrophobic where as a sax has so many amazing overtones - surely in this day and age???!!!

Devil take the hindmost ALLAN HOLDSWORTH Secrets music reviews and MP3 - Peril Preminition!

Sory to digress, but Jimmy Johnson is an amazing bassist!

[HeavyG]

...he epitomizes "musician music". What I mean by this is...he plays stuff that is so far over the heads of the average person...noone but musicians can appreciate it. Go to his show...it is 90% guitar players...the rest are other musicians or girlfriends. He is a tremendous virtuoso...I just don't like his phrasing or note choice. His music is just very atonal and cold to my ears....I can't deny the quality of the musicians or the virtuosity...but after 3 minutes...I am searching for my Stones cd. I am a drummer...and polyrhythms and overcomplex stuff just leaves me cold. The technical skill is impressive...but if I want that...i will go to a clinic. When I want to listen to music...I want melody...a groove I can tap my foot to...so Alan's stuff isnt' my bag. Boy is he a hell of a player, though.

His legato, stinging violin tone is cool, too. I kind of dig it...so even though I don't like his playing style...I would like to know more about his tone.

Cheers...

[infopimpster]

A friend and I saw him in Hollywood on 06... small room, half empty... he and the band mingled with some friends beforehand and then they stepped up on "stage" - about 6" high - and proceeded to blow our minds. A couple days later they recorded live at Yoshis:

» DVD Review: Allan Holdsworth & Alan Pasqua - Live At Yoshi’s - Blogger News Network

Next day or so (July 24 2006), we saw Robin Trower playing at House of Blues to a sold out crowd, a bunch of middle aged fat white guys watching him imitate Jimi and screaming and clapping their asses off... Slash was spotted... typical Hollywood hype scene.

Honestly - it depressed the hell out of me. Robin was/is SO copping off Jimi - totally derivative down to his own song that sounds JUST like Little Wing (barf), and has a better venue and fans... and Allan is playing to a half empty, tiny room... music totally unique, almost from another planet - and SO influential... just ask Vai, Eddie.....

-------

Back on topic: Found this forum - might be some more stuff of interest in there for you on his gear and sound:

The Real Allan Holdsworth :: View Forum - All About the Gear

Allan rules!

[richiepalooza]

It's sad to me what we've allowed our culture to devolve into. We've gotten so good at dissecting and objectifying everything - from women to music to gear etc.- that we forget to pull back and see the whole picture. Add this to our ever increasing narcissism, and those dissected fragments become about us and not the thing we're experiencing.

IMO, Allan Holdsworth has the deepest, most modern harmonic approach to "jazz" of anyone in the 21st century. But, to separate his tone from his note choice (ie harmonic complexities and ideas, melodic content etc) is to have an incomplete picture. Trying to hear what Holdsworth (or Trane, Metheny, Jim Hall, Wes, Sco, Miles, Bird, Eddie Van Halen. . .) is expressing is about all of it and it's about the artist himself.

I don't understand not spending as much time on tone as we do on note choice and technical facility. After all sound is not just something we do. It's all we do. That includes how V goes to I as well as how my 6L6's work with my open back cab vs. my head with KT66's.

But that's just me.

[Musiclab]

the problem with copping Holdsworth's tone or technique is that he is soooo distinctive that the second you get anywhere in the ball park it's obvious where you're going.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah, I'm DEFINITELY in the minority here. I've never been concerned with amps, and tubes, and stomp boxes. I play someone else amp and I still sound like me. There are timbre differences, sure. But to me it's my fingers and notes choices. That's why I'm not as into guitar players as most other guitar players are. I'm into Coltrane, Herbie, McCoy, Chick, Hubbard -- It's the notes and the phrasing for me. I've gotten so much more out of studying those guys than I have ANY other guitar player.

The fingers, vibrato, bends, and notes on and off, hammers, pull offs. I approximate those things when I interpret Trane, et al. But tone is really very, very, very little of my quest. I practice without an amp most of the time.

But that's just me.

I used to sound a little like Holdsworth. That's when I stopped listening to him. It wasn't the gear that made me sound like him though.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by richiepalooza

It's sad to me what we've allowed our culture to devolve into. We've gotten so good at dissecting and objectifying everything - from women to music to gear etc.- that we forget to pull back and see the whole picture. Add this to our ever increasing narcissism, and those dissected fragments become about us and not the thing we're experiencing.

Well, I understand what you are saying and I agree with it to a degree- but I'm a working musician- I have to pull things apart to understand them, process, resynthesize and ultimately allow them to be part of my musical vocabulary.

Out of all the musicians I played with in the early 90's when I was a budding musician, I am the only one who had this obsessive need to deconstruct music (and technology).
Out of all those musicians I am the only one still working full time in music.

I agree that we need to maintain the big picture- but I can do both.
Studying Bach doesn't in any way decrease my sense of astonishment when I hear the Cello Concertos.
If anything it deepens my appreciation for the music.

[henryrobinett]

It's always been the mind I've been most interested in, -- the internal world of the artist. When I get interested in a player, I'm interested in his mind; in his choices aesthetically and intellectually. Players who are purely emotional players are easier to understand. They take little analysis. But, for me, they're also less interesting. I like a balance of things, points of view, thoughts, pictures, challenges, opinions. Sure sound is part of that, but it's been less interesting to me. It's a variable too easily controlled by outside forces like engineers, studios, rooms, compressors, EQ. I want to know what the player is doing with his fingers and why they're laying out those notes. And that really is the world of his mind.

[Digitar]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

It's always been the mind I've been most interested in, -- the internal world of the artist. And that really is the world of his mind.

Alright Henry now we've got something going. I agree that the artists internal vision guides every choice that they make. But having a tone that inspires you to soar ever higher in your pursuits is essential. If you have incredible ideas but a tone that sucks you won't be able to realize your visions and goals. A guitarist like Allan has spent his life pursuing a tone that inspires him to keep going. We all know that playing Jazz is not a way to riches in a monetary sense, but in a deeper meaning that gives him a purpose to achieve his own particular musical goals. This is what brings him riches in an emotional sense. I think he is a fierce individualist that would rather do another job than play any music that goes against this. Thanks for your great insight as always Henry.

[richiepalooza]

Well, I understand what you are saying and I agree with it to a degree- but I'm a working musician- I have to pull things apart to understand them, process, resynthesize and ultimately allow them to be part of my musical vocabulary.

Of course you do. We all do. That's what studying is all about, but at some point we have to put it all back together, so that we can

deepen [our] appreciation for the music.

Although you are able to do that many can't, or won't.

As to the importance of tone, consider this. Would Stan Getz be as elegant and eloquent if his tone sounded like Boots Randolph? Certainly not, would it even matter how he phrased this or that? Don't you think that Trane could say more with one note than most people can in 20 chorus'. The notes and the tone taken by themselves are simply a vehicle, the means to an end. The music is in the totality of all of it. The hardest part of playing a tune like Giant Steps, isn't negotiating the changes. It's transcending them and finding to express yourself thru them. It's more than just note choice.

This point was driven home to me about 15 years ago when I owned a guitar school here in Texas. A guy had come to apply for a job teaching some classes. His resume looked good. He was a Berklee grad, very knowledgeable and a great sightreader. He showed me a book he was putting together of Chick Corea transcriptions, complete with fingerings for guitar. I asked him to play some of them and anything else he wanted me to hear. So, he pulls out his guitar and starts playing. All the notes were technically correct, but it sounded so awful that it was unlistenable. As he left (without the job) I felt really bad for the guy. Here he went and spent countless hours working on everything except his craft. He was so involved with playing the notes that he forgot to play music!

We jazzers are the worst when it comes to this. How many guys have heard that sound just like a typewriter? No dynamics, no tone, no style, just a bunch of notes. It's sad.

Then you go to the other extreme and listen to these younger guys, who shall remain nameless, that have this Stevie Ray Vaughn clone thing and end up sounding interchangeable. But think about guys like Hiram Bullock, Mike Stern, Pat Martino, Billy Gibbons, Johnny Winter, Eric Johnson, Cannonball Adderly, Joe Lovano, Jimi, Ron Carter, Albert Lee, Bootsy Collins, John Lee Hooker, Dave Liebman etc. Just the mere mention of their names conjures their individual sound that is unique and is as much in their instruments as it is in their hands.

BTW, I used to own one of Holdsworth's old Pearce'. It didn't make me sound anything like him. The music isn't in one thing or the other. It's somewhere in the middle of all of it.

[Digitar]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

the problem with copping Holdsworth's tone or technique is that he is soooo distinctive that the second you get anywhere in the ball park it's obvious where you're going.

I love his sound but what would be the point in trying to play like him. For one it's nearly impossible as his legato technique is unbeleievable. No, I'd rather play like me and be someone who has their own musical vision. The world doesn't need another Holdsworth, Johnson, Gambale, Vai, Beck, etc. but at times they all have had that same kind of sax type tone to their lead breaks. I just thought that if any of you are trying to find that type of tone, that maybe I could help you get there a little quicker. Giving a man a sax doesn't mean he's going to sound like Coltrane. Helping a guitarist achieve a sax type tone doesn't make him Holdsworth.

[henryrobinett]

I'm not saying tone isn't important. It's nothing I've ever put my attention on. For me it's in my fingers, it's not in my amp.

BTW way re Giant Steps - it's all in the notes, the phrasing, relaxing in the changes and playing them so they're natural. You have to play on each chord, not through them on the three tone center changes, but rather on each chord for it to sound good. The dynamics are also part of the notes. But after all is said and done, it's the notes you play and how you play them.

Piano players have it harder than we do in terms of articulation, dynamics and working harder to make the phrasing sound natural and melodic. They can't bend the strings, unless they're playing a synth.

Listen, I'm not saying the way it is, I'm only saying the way I am. I love the notes.

Liebman, Brecker, Miles, Hubbard, Trane, Getz, Hodges,had their own sound and worked hard on it. But the sound they created was less depended upon mouthpieces and reeds than it was embouchure. Jarrett, Chick, Oscar, Herbie, in regarding their acoustic piano playing often talk about tone. But that's less depended upon the piano, it's strings, mics, than it is on technique and "touch."

It seems not unlike someone who admires some author but especially admires the cover art rather than the characters. Or can't dig Robert Johnson because his tone sucks.

Certainly jazz guitar players are guilty for playing in a monotone. That happens with me sometimes. But I was a fusion player for many years, with Boogie and Marshalls and chorus, delays, overdrive and distortion. I used to mess some jazz musicians up by playing Oleo and Giant Steps with distortion and bending strings. It's all in the context. Sometimes the best thing to do is to play what's expected. The role of jazz guitar has been laid down and often it's appropriate to play what's expected. I always got a pretty good tone, but never TRIED to. I willed it form my fingers. Slap delay, long delay, get the eq as I like it, no compression, ratio of clean to dirty appropriate to the song and go. I always played with two speaker cabs in stereo. But it was no THING.

But this took almost no attention. It was the notes under the fingertips. The expression that gave rise to those notes. The tone? Yeah, it'd be tough to play if it sucked, but I always had to fight that going into a new room. Always. It would take me about a set to adjust, regardless.

[Digitar]

That's why every choice you make as a musician, good or bad makes a difference in your music. Eric Johnson, claims that he can hear the difference in batteries in his pedals and I'll bet he can, because he's taken the time to learn what every piece in his chain adds to his tone.

Our freedom as a musician, is what we must cling to. Some like a simple blues to express themselves with, while others want to play Bach to perfection. Both are just as valid in the pursuit of expressing the soul of the musician. It's when music turns into a way to get rich quick that the process gets corrupted. If your soul doesn't sing when you play your music, why do it? Tone, is the voice and the note choices are entwined with it in every way.

If it brings you joy to pursue tone, do it.
If it brings you joy to find different modes to solo upon, do it.
Let the world feel your joy.

[henryrobinett]

Yes, that's about right. But I leave the modes to my grandma. I don't play no stinkin' modes!!

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I'm not saying tone isn't important. It's nothing I've ever put my attention on. For me it's in my fingers, it's not in my amp.

But your amp will shape your sound and therefore you need to take care of ALL the elements. Saying 'I don't care about the amp' is like a piano player saying 'I don't care whether the lid is closed or not or whether the pedals work. As an electric guitar player your instrument includes the amp, cables, pedals and whatever else you use in your setup.

I'm not saying that it was easier for Webster or Coltrane but chances are that electric guitar players are being controlled by the equipment if they don't care about the whole chain.

I've seen plenty of jazz gigs where electric guitar players played on obviously borrowed amps and sounded horrible. Yes, the lines were still the same lines but I want to ENJOY music and I don't want no intelectual barrier in the sense that I have to 'imagine' a better sound to appreciate the player's music.

There are so many variables that threaten the 'purity' of a player's sound in a live perfromance: room acoustics, PA, musicality and skill of the mixing engineer, audience noise, etc. That's why I think its' ultra-important to get your sound happening before it will escape your control. And even then you're able to work with the sound engineer if you really care.

I think it's also a matter of taking the audience seriously. Pat Metheny is somebody who's doing that. A friend of mine watched him do a soundcheck here in town about 15 years ago and he said that Metheny would spend THE WHOLE AFTERNOON just checking out the room and adjusting his equipment and playing to make sure that that night's gig will be done in the best way that he could.

But I agree with you in the sense that it's the player that ultimately shapes the sound, beter equipment won't make you play better but it can enhance your playing and inspire you to greater musical heights.

[henryrobinett]

doorknocker -- Thanks. Obviously I know all that. My sound doesn't suck. I've always had pretty good amps and gear. I personally have never put a lot of attention on it. And I'm fine, thank you.

I'm not Pat Metheny, nor do I want to be. I like my sound. Never really worked on it. I have little attention on it. I think the REAL sound is in the fingers. I'm sorry I do.

Of course I know what you're talking about and don't disagree. But you know, I don't put a lot of attention on it. I love playing the guitar, not the gear. Sue me.