Allan Holdsworth's Lead Sound

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by kpaw

Man, to me, listening to the Stones after Holdsworth is like putting down a bottle of Dom Perignon for a can of Bud Light.

I know what you mean. Anyway I'd rather listen to Muddy Waters than the Stones anyway.

[H-Rezz]

Even though Allan is very into sound a lot of it comes from his technique , another honourable mention would be Brett Garsed both Allan and Brett have flawless legato technique and an excellent sense on note choice .....

The ending of this track is a one chord vamp, which lets Brett go to town and showcase his legato technique, quite mindboggling .....

YouTube - Brett Garsed - Crash And Burn

[Digitar]

Yeah, Brett's dexterity is amazing. At first listen, he reminds me of a mixture of Allan Holdsworth, Steve Morse, and maybe a hint of Albert Lee because of the right hand hybrid picking ( pick and fingers ). Thanks for the listen Hi-Rezz.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by Digitar

I love his sound but what would be the point in trying to play like him. For one it's nearly impossible as his legato technique is unbeleievable. No, I'd rather play like me and be someone who has their own musical vision. The world doesn't need another Holdsworth, Johnson, Gambale, Vai, Beck, etc. but at times they all have had that same kind of sax type tone to their lead breaks. I just thought that if any of you are trying to find that type of tone, that maybe I could help you get there a little quicker. Giving a man a sax doesn't mean he's going to sound like Coltrane. Helping a guitarist achieve a sax type tone doesn't make him Holdsworth.

His legato technique is great as is AH. But I've heard so many players try to get that sound, and because of how distinctive it is you are immediately busted. One of the strangest things for me was when Bill Connors started to pick up an electric guitar again
he went from totally having his own thing, check out Hymn Of the 7th Galaxy, to sounding like an Allan wanna be, so strange and sad.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Sue me.

It's underway. You're charged with gear-neglect and making ridicule of gear-sluttism.

If found guilty, you'll be locked in a room for 24 hours while an AMPLIFIED banjo player in an adjacent room will attempt to perform nothing but Coltrane transcriptions. Special care will be taken to find a poor sight-reader and no tuning aids will be provided.

[stratology]

Holdsworth is known for changing his gear all the time, still ends up sounding like himself. Isn't that interesting?

The thing about his playing that amazes me most is his incredible sense of melody.
He has also developed his own unique chord language.
The harmonic tools at his disposal are the same as everybody else's. Could it be he's so good because of his talent?

The thing to learn from him is not to sound like Holdsworth, but to sound like yourself...

Frank

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

It's underway. You're charged with gear-neglect and making ridicule of gear-sluttism.

If found guilty, you'll be locked in a room for 24 hours while an AMPLIFIED banjo player in an adjacent room will attempt to perform nothing but Coltrane transcriptions. Special care will be taken to find a poor sight-reader and no tuning aids will be provided.

Dang! I didn't mean you should REALLY sue me!

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by stratology

Holdsworth is known for changing his gear all the time, still ends up sounding like himself. Isn't that interesting?

The thing about his playing that amazes me most is his incredible sense of melody.
He has also developed his own unique chord language.
The harmonic tools at his disposal are the same as everybody else's. Could it be he's so good because of his talent?

The thing to learn from him is not to sound like Holdsworth, but to sound like yourself...

Frank

Yes, it's interesting how he always sounds like himself.

That's why I stopped listening to him. I found myself doing that legato thing and phrasing a lot like him. Too much for my own comfort. For me music is about sounding like yourself, or at least not sounding too much like someone else, unless that is really you. Music, being self expression, get defeated when you spend too much time in someone elses sound universe.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

That's why I stopped listening to him. I found myself doing that legato thing and phrasing a lot like him

Likewise, Allan is so damn influential that you cann't help but try and emulate him, this all fine but doing that is a full time job and doesn't help you when the only time you use that type of playing is when you are doing that style which means you have to make a career out of it . Session players, Trad Jazz bands do not require or want it , playing cover songs on the weekend require all the techniques you have up your sleave from funk to rock, but seldom the beautiful legato technique short of a few phrases ....the choice becomes incorporate and not emulate, in other words add the technique to your arsenal but don't clone it ...

On another note, this guy playing the changes to Giant Steps is freakin amazing, and has flawless technique for those interested in a hallmark and challenging track for playing changes .....

YouTube - Giant Steps by Andrea Scognamillo

[eligit]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Even though Allan is very into sound a lot of it comes from his technique , another honourable mention would be Brett Garsed both Allan and Brett have flawless legato technique and an excellent sense on note choice .....

The ending of this track is a one chord vamp, which lets Brett go to town and showcase his legato technique, quite mindboggling .....

YouTube - Brett Garsed - Crash And Burn

i find this kind of thing so strange....is it possible to be amazed and completely bored out of my mind at the same time?

i get this sensation with so many of these "finger wizards".....first totally astounded at a very technically smooth run...and then it all starts to sound like the most nauseating elevator music and i just want to listen to hendrix, the beatles, radiohead or something else i can relate to on a human level.

i get this same sensation with holdsworth....but to a different degree because his skill level is SO high and his music is unmistakable for anyone else...but then you get this physical sensation that you are listening to musak with interesting chord voicings. very odd experience.

i never get this sensation when i hear coltrane shred tho....maybe i am just jealous?

[richiepalooza]

I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days, tone vs harmonic/melodic content. This is what I've come up with:

1.) I understand what Henry's saying, especially with someone like Holdsworth who places every note so deliberately. But, i think we learn a more lot about him by listening to his tone along with his note choice/phrasing. That is, I think he's telling us something about himself by his choice of guitar/amp tone as well as his legato technique and his harmonic approach. All three (and other stuff) together feed into each other. Any one by itself is incomplete.

2) For myself, I played for years with the notes only mindset (Archtop>polytone clean and dry) and then I realized that I was missing a huge part of what I wanted to say. So,now I have the ability to let every aspect of my instrument (guitar AND amp And fx) in addition to my to my technique and harmonic concept express who I am.

Put another way, the old approach made it easy for me to show you how smart I am, the new approach makes it easy for me to show you how human I am.

Cool thread.

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by eligit

i find this kind of thing so strange....is it possible to be amazed and completely bored out of my mind at the same time?

i get this sensation with so many of these "finger wizards".....first totally astounded at a very technically smooth run...and then it all starts to sound like the most nauseating elevator music and i just want to listen to hendrix, the beatles, radiohead or something else i can relate to on a human level.

i get this same sensation with holdsworth....but to a different degree because his skill level is SO high and his music is unmistakable for anyone else...but then you get this physical sensation that you are listening to musak with interesting chord voicings. very odd experience.

i never get this sensation when i hear coltrane shred tho....maybe i am just jealous?

I love everything , as a producer i do anything from RnB/Hip Hop to Pop,Rock and Punk/Pop ....

I love Jazz,Classical and Orchestral film music ! I also love Electronica especially Boris Blank and BT's work ....

As a guitar player i reach for people with profound voices, people who have different things to say .....

I don't think music is either/or in as much as what we get out of it and what it can teach us, for example you looking at Brett Garsed as a guitar player would have been influenced somehow, it may have interested you long enough to give you a different approach not matter how minimal that might be, nobody say's that all you should listen to is Allan,Brett or Coltrane all day, you will get bored even with Coltrane, it is simply due to fact that it is music from only one perspective .

[eligit]

^^

i donno....there is this very specific thing that happens if i listen to too much "artful shred" at once.

with other music like hendrix, or trane, or the beatles, or bach or something...i could listen to it all day with no problem....but when these guys start with their mind blowing legato runs over prog musak synth backdrops....something in my brain just starts to starve to death even while i am thinking "how the heck does he do that"...like with buckethead or really any of these other guys.

i am not sure i can really pin it down. the sound is very cool....and yet also very cheesy at the same time....that whole digital reverb/delay compressed legato overdrive THING....astounding and yet does not contact my brain in certain ways that are touched by something like the melody and chords to "dear prudence" or a bach piece or hendrix playing machine gun. some crucial organic human thing is missing....or just that i am unable to contact it.

however HOLDSWORTH is on a whole other level from most of these guys and i place him in a special catagory....he IS shredding....but there is a lyrical approach and a unique harmonic language there that sets him apart.....NOBODY can play shit that fast, clean, and controlled, while at the same time being very unpredictable with the contour of his lines and striking with chord voicing and rhythms.

............even if i cannot listen to it every day.

[Digitar]

What's funny is even though I find his Legato solo work remarkable. I learned more by studying his chord progressions and his constant ways of modulating from key to key. Check out his book " Melody Chords for Guitar" for a visit to another way of thinking about music.

I agree that he is in a class by himself with his depth of knowledge. The unorthadox way that he put together his own system for understanding music on his own terms, have brought forth a lot of "new" ways to think about guitar and composition.

[henryrobinett]

I played a gig last night. I was backing up a singer with a rock-ish band. I got a real crunch sound; little bit of delay, tiny bit of chorus, a lot of crunch. It sounded great. Guitar was the primary rhythm sound, -- actually it carried the band.

For solos I had a couple of different gain stages. I got a lot of compliments. As a matter of fact several people said that I was the main attraction for the band even though it wasn't my thing. What I'm saying is, it was fun. I never did the whole archtop thing myself. I was into Hendrix from the beginning. I got a great tone last night. But it never took any attention.

What I'm saying is I've seen so many guitar players into the SOUND rather than the playing. I have always felt that if these guitar players spent half as much time on the actual playing, they might end up actually playing really well. How much time does it take to plug in a pedal? Practicing getting a sound is cool and all, but practicing playing is more beneficial, IMO.

Even my jazz guitar isn't a jazz guitar -- its a ES-355. More and more I'm playing without any effects when I play that guitar. But that's different for me. So it looks like I'm going about it opposite than Richie.

I used to not be able to play anything other than my amp. I was messed up by different amps and different sounds and different rooms. But that doesn't happen much any more. I don't know why. I think I've settled into a certain confidence with my playing and my sound. I'll just make it work. And I will always sound like me regardless of what I'm playing through.

I've mentioned this before, but once, several years ago, I was producing a band looking for band members. We were auditioning guitar players and singers. When a guitar player auditioned I sat down and listened. When a singer was auditioning I played guitar. After I played there was a guitar player writing down the settings on the amp and guitar, as if they way it sounded was cool and he wanted to copy it. Typically I didn't even know what they were. It wasn't even my amp. It was some newer Fender twinn type thing. I don't like those amps, but that's what they had.

Then this guitar player picked up the guitar. It was the guitar that was there. The guitar I played, not mine and not his. He sounded TERRIBLE. He was out of tune and just sounded like crap. I asked the piano player, absolutely shocked, whether I sounded like that. He said it was amazing, but I sounded NOTHING like that. He said, "This guy sounds terrible! It sounds like an entirely different rig. You sounded great."

I'm not writing all this to say that I'm great. But it was my first real objective lesson for me that the sound is produced by the person in much greater proportion than I had previously assumed.

It's the notes, the dynamics, the push, the pull of the fingers and the energy (dynamic) of the emotion present in the individual and where those notes are placed in the time/rhythm stream. That's by far senior to the kind of amp, effects, strings, attenuators, tubes you want to throw at it. Yes they make a difference. But I'd rather spend my time practicing the guitar than f***ing with tubes any day of the week, (or hour.)

[eligit]

Originally Posted by Digitar

What's funny is even though I find his Legato solo work remarkable. I learned more by studying his chord progressions and his constant ways of modulating from key to key. Check out his book " Melody Chords for Guitar" for a visit to another way of thinking about music.

I agree that he is in a class by himself with his depth of knowledge. The unorthadox way that he put together his own system for understanding music on his own terms, have brought forth a lot of "new" ways to think about guitar and composition.

ah...i think you have hit on something there.

when i hear holdsworth i feel like "you should be learning from this!!"

when i hear all these these other kinds of music....i just relax and enjoy the music....i cannot really experience that feeling with any of these virtuoso shred guys....

[Digitar]

That's one of the main differences between guitar and piano. You hit a note on a piano and it sounds exactly the same no matter who's playing it. Where a Guitar will show you the skill level of the player in an instant. It's funny that the instrument can be that immediate and truthful.

[henryrobinett]

Too many notes require a lot of listening. Notes for the sake of notes is kind of lame and boring. If someone is playing fast just to prove he can play fast that gets old awfully fast. When there's a purpose for it, an art, it makes all the difference.

Sometimes, with the guitar, I used to notice this ramp up effect. I could play really fast,but I had to always play fast. It took me a long time to get enough control where I play fast only when appropriate, so I could develop the arc of a solo and then just rip, maybe for a moment. It seemed so much more effective. But it's not easy.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by Digitar

That's one of the main differences between guitar and piano. You hit a note on a piano and it sounds exactly the same no matter who's playing it. Where a Guitar will show you the skill level of the player in an instant. It's funny that the instrument can be that immediate and truthful.

No, it doesn't. Great pianists work on the tone of playing a piano with dynamics. They call it "touch."

But I do know what you mean. Guitar is more immediate. I think it's because there's a more direct route of the finger touching the string. The piano has hammers and mechanisms that come between.

[kafka]

Originally Posted by Digitar

That's one of the main differences between guitar and piano. You hit a note on a piano and it sounds exactly the same no matter who's playing it. Where a Guitar will show you the skill level of the player in an instant. It's funny that the instrument can be that immediate and truthful.

That's absolute bullshit. There is as much technique in playing piano as there is on the guitar. Alfred Brendel, Daniel Barenboim, and Vladimir Ashkenazy all sound completely different. And if your ears are tinny enough that can't tell the difference between those three, put on anything by Glenn Gould. They all have very different tone, and they carry it from one piano to another.

[eligit]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Too many notes require a lot of listening. Notes for the sake of notes is kind of lame and boring. If someone is playing fast just to prove he can play fast that gets old awfully fast. When there's a purpose for it, an art, it makes all the difference.

Sometimes, with the guitar, I used to notice this ramp up effect. I could play really fast,but I had to always play fast. It took me a long time to get enough control where I play fast only when appropriate, so I could develop the arc of a solo and then just rip, maybe for a moment. It seemed so much more effective. But it's not easy.

good comment there.

it is REALLY REALLY hard to play fast only where the song really needs it. one of the hardest things to do.

i am very much into listening to many soloists from jeff beck, to trane to miles to hendrix to frisell to wayne shorter......i get a huge sense of purpose and feeling behind every note. i was just listening to the old miles electric band....incredible solos....great note choice....amazing tone.....it just kicks ass, occasional squeaks or no.

with many astoundingly skilled guitar players from al demeola to holdsworth to mclaughin (at times) to the hordes of shred guys like malmsteen et al....i do not always get the sense that i need to hear every note and become easily bored. i think simple TASTE has something to do with it.

like i said before i think holdsworth is on another level....but with the other shred guys....it feels like a flashy demonstration of honed technique....rather than expressive soulful music. like "check this out!" now "check out this sweep picking!" now "check out these 32nd notes! how seamless was THAT???" now "here's the tapping part! now i add that extra high note by tapping with the pick!! wow! i am amazing!"

[Digitar]

Originally Posted by kafka

That's absolute bullshit. There is as much technique in playing piano as there is on the guitar. Alfred Brendel, Daniel Barenboim, and Vladimir Ashkenazy all sound completely different. And if your ears are tinny enough that can't tell the difference between those three, put on anything by Glenn Gould. They all have very different tone, and they carry it from one piano to another.

What I meant was that anybody could sit down at the same piano and hit a note and it would essentially sound the same. Where if you have 10 different people do the same thing on a guitar the differences are alot more obvious than the piano. Of course a great keyboardist can bring out all the nuances of the instrument. I wasn't implying that all keyboardist sound the same and that's not what I said. Lighten Up!

[eligit]

Originally Posted by kafka

That's absolute bullshit. There is as much technique in playing piano as there is on the guitar. Alfred Brendel, Daniel Barenboim, and Vladimir Ashkenazy all sound completely different. And if your ears are tinny enough that can't tell the difference between those three, put on anything by Glenn Gould. They all have very different tone, and they carry it from one piano to another.

have to agree with that.

to a piano player there is as much tone in the hands as with the guitar.

however to ME as a guitar player....i hear much larger variability in touch and tone between guitar players.....but it is not a fair comparison because piano is acoustic....so the differences in tone to someone who is NOT a piano player seem small or even non existent...compared to all the dramatic things that can be done with wacky pedals, tapping, how you hit the string or time the vibrato or any number of things.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by eligit

like i said before i think holdsworth is on another level....but with the other shred guys....it feels like a flashy demonstration of honed technique....rather than expressive soulful music. like "check this out!" now "check out this sweep picking!" now "check out these 32nd notes! how seamless was THAT???" now "here's the tapping part! now i add that extra high note by tapping with the pick!! wow! i am amazing!"

I think "shred" is an unfortunate term. But yes, no doubt about it Holdsworth is in his own league.

Tapping and sweep picking drive me crazy. I mean it's OK when some does it, but I've never done either one, really. Technique merely for the show I've never found interesting. But I like great technique and speed. Sweeping and tapping just seemed to be devices to me.

[richiepalooza]

What I'm saying is I've seen so many guitar players into the SOUND rather than the playing.

I think you're making my point for me. Any one aspect is incomplete. It's all of it.

But I'd rather spend my time practicing the guitar than f***ing with tubes any day of the week, (or hour.)

BTW, let's not kid ourselves, tone is a choice. It doesn't have to be tube. I'd play thru a old JC120 or my old Pearce G1b any day. But, my main amp right now is a 1960 brown Fender Pro. I got it 3 years ago and have spent exactly zero hours (minutes actually) maintaining it.

It's the notes, the dynamics, the push, the pull of the fingers and the energy (dynamic) of the emotion present in the individual and where those notes are placed in the time/rhythm stream. That's by far senior to the kind of amp, effects, strings, attenuators, tubes you want to throw at it.

That's true. . . unless the amp is not capable of responding to the kind of "dynamics, the push, the pull of the fingers and the energy (dynamic) of the emotion present", which sadly, many aren't.

But I don't want to get into a "this amp is better " trip. Sometimes the "better" amp is the absolute wrong choice. My point was that, especially with someone like AH, it's not an either/or. One is not subordinate to the other, insomuch as they work together.

One of the things that I tell my students all the time is that we are responsible for everything that comes out of the speaker (guitar, if acoustic). . .everything.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by richiepalooza

I think you're making my point for me. Any one aspect is incomplete. It's all of it.

How is the quote that, "I've seen so many guitar players into the SOUND rather than the playing," making your point for you?

Listen, I've said that it all come into play, but FOR ME, I've never spent 10 minutes on it.

That's true. . . unless the amp is not capable of responding to the kind of "dynamics, the push, the pull of the fingers and the energy (dynamic) of the emotion present", which sadly, many aren't. .

I've very rarely played an amp - maybe never, that didn't respond to my dynamics. I don't even know what that means any more. It USED to be that way. I remember ages ago I played a Fender twin that just didn't seem to respond. But I don't think that'll happen any more. Maybe I don't play through enough amps, but I've been in situations where I've played in different amps, schools, jazz camps, festivals where I couldn't bring my own. I just don't have that problem any more. I don't know whether it my technique or just my consideration. I think kit's a consideration, because now I think the sound is in my hands, so I'm less effected, personally, by the sound of the amp;. I MAKE it sound like I want it to, or figure out a way to make it work.

[H-Rezz]

To seperate the men from the boys , give most 'shredders' 4 chords in unrelated keys, a chord a bar lets say and watch them fall over, trust me they will not be shredding anymore ,that's when your realise the gravity of what people like Allan Holdworth, Scott Henderson etc do, and learn to appreciate how effortless they run through chords and create interesting lines and phrases while they're at it

In an improvisational sense, most real 'shredders' have no idea about phrasing , groupings, chordal outlining etc, most or them preconcieve their lines and most are really NOT improvising , that's why it becomes very easy to seperate them out .....