Why do I prefer the note that makes a chord major tuned flat on distorted guitar?

[TEMAS]

This is something that has always bothered me. No matter how perfectly in tune and intonated my guitar is, whenever I add distortion to basic major guitar chords (or some other chords for that matter) it sounds terrible. And I hear the same problem often when I listen to other people play as well.

I have found though, that if I tune the note that makes the chord major slightly flat (for example G sharp in E major), then it sounds much more harmonically pleasing with distortion than when tuned correctly.

Of course, the problem with this is that once I've de-tuned my G string, my song is totally restricted to E shape bar chords. But they do sound so much better.

I decided to record my experiments. 2 takes - the first one with the G string tuned flat, the second with 'correct' and accurate western tuning. On each take I start by playing each note of E major top to bottom so you can test the tuning of my guitar if you like. You then hear the E major / G major / A major strummed through 2 different distortion effect pedals (actually first is a high gain, the second is a germ fuzz).

I am positive there is nothing wrong with my guitar or my hearing. My guess is that the reason the flat version sounds better is to do with the frequency of harmonics. But I'd be interested to know if anyone else can offer an explanation.

Cheers.

[the pear dream]

Jack Endino has written some great stuff about the voodoo surrounding guitar tuning, and it sounds like his discussion about equal-temperament in part II might help you out:

GUITAR TUNING NIGHTMARES EXPLAINED

i send this to all the bands i work with before we start. some of them actually read it.

best of luck to ya!

[Blast9]

"Tempered tuning" = not perfectly in tune, but more pleasing to the ear. And that is why piano tuners tune/adjust by ear.

I think this is the phenomenon you're experiencing.

The same approach is used by Buzz Feiten on his tuning system with regards to different nut length for better intonation esp on the G string

How It Works

[theGeek]

I've had a similar problem on my Tele and instead of getting everything perfectly in tune I do it by ear. I basically set the intonation the old fashioned way and then I have a few chords that I know typically sound bad and try those. Then its pretty much just trial and error from there. After I find some bad notes I start making adjustments. Sometimes I'll be working on it for a few hours but I eventually get there.

The Buzz Feiten system is nice but its a pain to get installed. Although I've never tried them I head that the earvana nuts are nice too.

[TEMAS]

Glad to know I'm not alone. And thanks for the links

I find I only really notice the intonation issues when using distortion.

[Francis Vaughan]

Jack Endio's article contains the correct answer.

The problem you have is the infernal major third in equal temperament. It is the note that really got a bad deal. The reason it is particularly bad with distortion is that you are adding lots of new harmonics onto the fundamentals - and these harmonics multiply the discrepancy - so you have harmonics that are really out of tune with one another. (Even if you have a perfectly intonated chord you will have this problem, but not nearly so bad so fast.)

Different intonation schemes exist to cope with this for different circumstances, but all they can do is favour some keys over others. Narrowing the amount the thirds are out of tune, for instance, in preferred keys, and making things worse in less preferred keys. This works OK for pianos - and almost every piano on the planet will be tuned to one of these schemes, despite what you might get taught about the use of equal temperament. But the choice of temperament is still fraught - some composers rather insist on less used keys. Some compositions however clearly make use of the inherent dissonance, so you can never really win.

The Feiten system was derived from one of the piano intonations (although if you read Buzz's description of how he came upon it - it is not clear he realised what he was creating.)

Guitars are inherently impossible. But if you turn it up loud enough it ceases to matter. (There are both good and bad reasons for this )

[kafka]

Intonation issues show up horribly when using distortion. Clipping causes harmonics to be generated that weren't in the original signal, and also causes intermodulation distortion between notes. Given that equal tempered scales always have some intonation issues somewhere in the voicing, it's something of constant concern.

The major 3rd happens to stand out more than other intervals because the fundamental of the 3rd isn't closely harmonically related to the fundamental of the root, as is the case with the 4th or the 5th. 2nds (and 7ths) are more nebulous because they're so far off, you are actually using the non-harmonic qualities to create color. You should consider whether the voicing of your chords emphasizes the problem and whether it sufficiently shows the harmonic character of what you're trying to play. You should also consider whether you want to play all notes at once, or whether you should arpeggiate to reduce the effect (a la EVH).

One of the reasons jazz guitarists tend to have a pretty dead tone is because it prevents conflicts among the upper harmonics. By getting rid of them, they can play extended chords that don't conflict as much. Also, by eliminating or keeping distortion to a minimum, they prevent conflicting harmonics from being generated, and avoid IM distortion.

How bad distortion sounds depends on where the clipping is introduced in the amp, how much compression is going on in the amp at that point, and what is the harmonic content at that stage. Since you may be clipping at more than one stage in the amp, adding additional harmonic content will be on top of any IM distortion that exists at that stage. Some amps handle it much better than others. Given that I play a lot of M7's, 9th chords, and other extended voicings, I'm very critical of amps in this respect. I have a couple that are exceptional, although most I've played sound pretty bad.

Mostly, I find the solution is to use distortion more sparingly, and to let the harmonic qualities of my chords come through more naturally. I prefer to get sustain the way God intended it - through volume.

[seaneldon]

Originally Posted by kafka

The major 3rd happens to stand out more than other intervals because the fundamental of the 3rd isn't closely harmonically related to the fundamental of the root

Bingo. End of thread.

[TEMAS]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

Bingo. End of thread.

Actually. I think the answer can be found in the link provided in the first reply. Its to do with equal temperament and the fact that the tuning of our western scale is not accurate. The note which makes a chord major is supposed to be 1/4 or 25% higher in pitch than the key note and the minor note 1/5 or 20% higher. When I tune my guitar to what sounds right this is what I am doing. When I tune my guitar by tuner, i.e, to the western scale, major notes will be 25.99% higher and minor notes will be 18.9% higher.

Read the link above for a more detailed explanation.

[seaneldon]

Originally Posted by TEMAS

Actually. I think the answer can be found in the link provided in the first reply. Its to do with equal temperament and the fact that the tuning of our western scale is not accurate.

True, but you yourself stated that it really bothered you when you were dealing with a driving/distorting amplifier...this is why I'd say that the odd harmonics on that 3rd are what's the real culprit...not the 3rd itself.

[ddp]

This issue is also why the power chord has no third. A root and a fifth will always sound more in tune with distortion than a root and a major third.

[lordmiguel]

i can't wax theory, but i always have to tune by ear. i always have a problem respecting people and their ideas when they can't get an instrument sounding in tune and have to use a piece of electronics to tune. guess it makes me question their ear.

i completely understand what you are wondering about.

[Absolute]

Originally Posted by lordmiguel

i always have a problem respecting people and their ideas when they can't get an instrument sounding in tune and have to use a piece of electronics to tune. guess it makes me question their ear.

.

Clap clap clap clap clap. Maybe you can put out an Album of you tuning by ear for 60 minutes. Then we can all respect that amazing virtuoso ability you have

Hahahahahaha

and.........

hahahahahahhahahhahahhaaaaaaaa

Im kidding..I must be reading your comment wrong because it sounded like you have small peice of perfume toilet paper caught up your arse :)

[BobbyL57]

Actually, I prefer the major 3rd tuned flat even without distortion but then I can't play in all 12 keys anymore since it's no longer in the equal tempered system.

[badger17]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

True, but you yourself stated that it really bothered you when you were dealing with a driving/distorting amplifier...this is why I'd say that the odd harmonics on that 3rd are what's the real culprit...not the 3rd itself.

It's a combination of both. Because of the tempering, the 3rd is not a perfect 3rd. Because of the distortion, those odd harmonics appear and sound even more dissonant because they are coming off a note slightly sharper than one without a close harmonic relationship with the fundamental.

[cjmask]

Originally Posted by kafka

You should consider whether the voicing of your chords emphasizes the problem and whether it sufficiently shows the harmonic character of what you're trying to play.

Exactly. To me part of being a guitar player is learning to play around these little things. It's knowing things like how to apply the right amount of pressure on each string to put it in tune. And voicing is pretty important. If you know that G string is gonna sound a little funny, then voice it so the 3rd is on the D string.

I play guitar for a singer/songwriter who is a poor guitar player. He tunes his guitar but cannot play it in tune. He constantly gets it set up for different gauge strings but always sounds out of tune. I can take the guitar and play it fine. It's a bad situation because I can tell we are out of tune with each other.

[Branjovi]

what the last guy said.

the major 3rd on a guitar, when fretted along with the root, is sharp. this is due to tempered tuning/intonation. google it. also google "just intonation".

you can get around this by learning to play properly with experience. learning how to play involves playing with others in band situations and learning what voicings sound good and which ones don't.

also why certain notes sound good/sweet and other sound harsh/nervous.
wonder why blues players always bend up to the major 3rd?
the fretted maj 3rd is sharp. so is the flat seventh. so is the minor 3rd to a smaller degree. and the 9th.

there are ways around this. listen to Bill Frisell. he plays with a lot of just intervals.
for more on this also check out Steve Kimock.

unless you are playing jazz or playing cowboy chords, don't play 3rds in your voicings unless you have to. especially with distortion.
let the melodic voices dictate the major/minor quality.

you can play just intonated major 3rds on guitar using natural harmonics but that is a whole other can of worms.

[donsolo]

There's a few guitars that are 19 frets per octave and some have 32 frets per octave. This way, you can select whether you're playing a minor 3rd or major 3rd

A C# is NOT a Db even though they're the same on a piano.

Check out Hermode Tuning. That's the way they've been dealing with these issues on synthesizer. It figures out what you're playing and reintonates on the fly to accomodate.

Logic does it.