Tips on improving your playing (resurrected thread!)

[Jax]

I think we lost a great thread when GS crashed recently. In the interest of bringing back the knowledge and information that was shared, I'm inviting all the people who took part in that discussion to repost their ideas here. I found the original thread to be invaluable and I'd bet many others would, too. Thanks in advance!

The original post went something like this (not my post, and I don't remember whom to credit + sorry if my memory of the post isn't accurate): "I'm a fairly accomplished guitar player and I've been playing for 20 years. I know all the commonly used scales in every position, can play blues, rock and jazz, but I've hit a wall and my playing has not gotten noticeably better for awhile. What else can I study to improve my playing?"

Ok I'll drop names, too. Jim Richmond, Henry Robinett and I believe FFTT contributed great posts to the original thread. If you guys feel like rehashing your guitar wisdom, I know I won't be the only one who'd greatly appreciate it. If I missed anybody, please feel free.

[theGeek]

I think that playing with people who are better than you is a great way to learn. But don't be afraid to ask questions. I'm not a great player but I've gotten a lot better just by asking "how the F%^& did you do that?"

[octatonic]

It is going to be difficult for me to remember exactly what I said so I won't really try- but let's see if I can tackle this again.

It takes work.
In my estimation I need to play 2-3 hours a day to maintain my level of dexterity and intuitiveness with the guitar.

I try to play 4-5 hours a day at a minimum and in my estimation it is virtually impossible doing this whilst holding down a full time job and having any degree of a social life.
Something has to give.
Either work part time or get used to the fact that on evenings, weekends and holidays you will either be at rehearsals or playing alone in your house/flat/cave.
I worked part time for a long while until I could start teaching.

You should be able to do the following:

Play the following scales in all keys.

Major (and modes), Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, Diminished, Whole tone, Pentatonic (Major and Minor).
You should be able to play them in all positions.

Work on finger independence exercises 1234, 4321, 1324, 4312, 4121- up and down the neck, string skipping.

I play with pick and fingers mostly- but work a lot of playing without a pick, work on cross picking, economy picking, sweeping.

That is all I can think of for now- I am sure I wrote more last time ... if I remember I will repost.

[Jax]

We're off to a good start. Both of the posts above are a couple of gems from the original thread. If anyone else wants to join in, by all means have at it. Thanks.

[dewey decibel]

I wasn't in on the original thread, but here's my 2 bits anyway:

Don't work on scales, don't work on theory, don't read books, don't focus on any of that. Learn tunes. Transcribe solos. Learn the language of music. Scales are fine, but they're not it. What makes someone a good player is their vocabulary, their sense of taste, and their experience.

Now there are some guitar specific things to work on, for instance you do need to have a way to visualize the fretboard. If you look at a guitar it doesn't make sense, the way the fretboard lays out. What you want to do is figure out a way to have it make sense, so you can "see it" in a more linear way, like a piano's keyboard. I think where some players get hung up is they try and do this through scale patterns and the like, where as rather than opening up the fretboard I think it tends to close it down. The way I look at the fretboard is very basic, I look at in in intervals. For instance, I know that each string is a 4th up from the previous one (except for that bastard 'B' string ), which also makes this:

1)
2)
3)
4)--3
5)3
6)

...a 4th. And this:

1)
2)
3)
4)---5
5)3
6)

...is a 5th. And this:

1)
2)
3)---5
4)
5)3
6)

...is an octave. From there you can build anything- any scale, any chord, etc. You're not grounded to any set fingering pattern. All you need is a root note to start on, and eventually you realize you don't even really need that.

So the truth is I know a lot about music theory, scales, etc. The difference is I learned it all in context, I learned it from learning tunes, learning other players solos, riffs, etc. IMO, learning that stuff out of context is a waste of time. And when I say learn them I don't mean go out and get a book of TAB, I mean sit down with your guitar and the record and figure it out. Develop your ear. Even if you can't figure out exactly what's being played you're still learning something. And don't just try and learn guitar stuff- learn music. Keyboard lines, bass lines, vocal lines, arrangements- learn it all, it will all help.

As far as technique, it can be important but it's relative to what you want to do. I've always felt that if you spend enough time playing your technique will develop naturally on it's own, and from there it's just a matter of refinement. And before I get flamed- don't get me wrong, it does take a lot of work. But again, it's the context thing. I've taught people that spent years running alternate picked 3 note per string scales because that's what they read to do in "Guitar Player Magazine", but that stuff never once enters into what they actually want to play. Keep it all in context!

[Pasta4lnch]

anyone have any tips on building right hand chops on bass? (i'm a guitar player . . .)



fwiw I dig the comment about playing w/ people better than you. At worst it motivates me to be a better player. A best I'll pick something up I didn;t know before . . . (youtube is kinda cool for this - but can be consuming I usually end up spending the WHOLE afternoon watching Penn and Teller "bullshit" re-runs . . . )

[malaclypse]

"If you can't play scales, what can you play?" -unknown

[Unclenny]

Just play........a lot.

Mother's Day

[Jax]

All very good comments. Anyone who is serious about becoming a better player would do well to heed them. I know I will.

Fwiw, having been a drummer my whole life, I don't approach improving my guitar playing as a complete noob. Much of what's being posted is easily relative to how I learned to play drums (both formally and informally), but the cool thing is that I'm seeing music from a whole other angle than one based predominantly on rhythm. Still, having very good rhythmic understanding and ability is absolutely invaluable while I learn guitar.

Dewey dB - cool approach you have there! Playing guitar or any instrument and finding your own voice does require intuition. I think that's basically what you're talking about. Taste can be developed through interpretation - playing it the way you feel it should be played, based on your range of experience and ability. I don't know if there is a better, more honest way to do that than by listening to music and trying to figure out what's going on. Without any training, you'd have to do that in your own way.

Your approach to understanding and finding your way around the neck is refreshingly simple compared to the methods I've found so far.

Jim, thanks for being specific. I'd been looking for a synopsis of important techniques to practice, and that was a good one. Everything in your list matches what I'm finding, or introduces me to a new category of study. In terms of putting in the needed amount of work, you're right - finding the time while juggling my full time job, working at the studio at night and on weekends, and pretending to have friends? ****ing impossible. I usually manage to find time by practicing before going to bed at night, no matter how tired I am or will be the next day. Anything worth doing can never truly be mastered.

theGeek - I agree about playing with people who you know are better than you. I've seen too many stubborn drummers who ended their progress by letting their ego get bigger than their talent and their hunger to learn. I have more respect for anyone who drops the ego so they can learn than I do for anyone who gets threatened by being challenged, especially when the challenge isn't approached like it's a contest. But you have to find the right people.

Anyway - great comments! Now if I can coax Henry and FFTT to drop some k-nowledge, the thread will be almost complete. Pm'ing them now...

[henryrobinett]

Tips for improving your playing:

1. Listen to music all the time.

2. Learn everything about music you can.
Music is a language containing, as all language does, words and symbols that have to be understood. Concepts ARE words and symbols. Words and symbols SYMBOLIZE concepts. MUSIC IS CONCEPTS in sound, time and aesthetics.

3. Learn the basics and fundamentals of music in terms of scales, arpeggios, chords, and reading. This helps you understand the neck and helps you KNOW what you're doing.

4. Learn things by ear.
Internalize the sound and pull from inside, from your ear, rather than from the speaker.

5. Play tunes. Always have a song you're learning.

6. Improvise. Never let go of your intuitive playing. I divide this into two different areas.
a. Improvise on difficult structured songs with challenging chord and /or time changes.
b. Completely intuitive, no rules, no structure.

When ever I work on improvising on tunes I never use recorded backing tracks to play over. I practice holding the structure in my head. It teaches me more control and keeps me from guess, estimating the structure by my ear alone.

If you are uninspired and dry, you just need to learn new stuff. Music is always a learning process, ALWAYS. When you stop learning your creative well soon runs on empty.

Learning an instrument is about drilling and repetition. Most people are too impatient. It's the drilling and repetition that indoctrinates the musical language internally. I think one needs the technique and access to pull the inspiration out of your body to the instrument. The more you know about music, about the guitar and the more in tune with the function and language of music, the better you'll be able to create music and never be concerned about inspiration.

[henryrobinett]

One other thing I think is important: Learn and work on music you're not very familiar with. This will always give you good fuel and your affinity for music of all styles increases -- and perhaps doors of opportunity will be more apt to open.

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Tips for improving your playing:

1. Listen to music all the time.

2. Learn everything about music you can.
Music is a language containing, as all language does, words and symbols that have to be understood. Concepts ARE words and symbols. Words and symbols SYMBOLIZE concepts. MUSIC IS CONCEPTS in sound, time and aesthetics.

3. Learn the basics and fundamentals of music in terms of scales, arpeggios, chords, and reading. This helps you understand the neck and helps you KNOW what you're doing.

4. Learn things by ear.
Internalize the sound and pull from inside, from your ear, rather than from the speaker.

5. Play tunes. Always have a song you're learning.

6. Improvise. Never let go over you intuitive playing. I divide this into two different areas.
a. Improvise on difficult structured songs with challenging chord and /or time changes.
b. Completely intuitive, no rules, no structure.

When ever I work on improvising on tunes I never use recorded backing tracks to play over. I practice holding the structure in my head. It teaches me more control and keeps me from guess, estimating the structure by my ear alone.

If you are uninspired and dry, you just need to learn new stuff. Music is always a learning process, ALWAYS. When you stop learning your creative well soon runs on empty.

Learning an instrument is about drilling and repetition. Most people are too impatient. It's the drilling and repetition that indoctrinates the musical language internally. I think one needs the technique and access to pull the inspiration out of your body to the instrument. The more you know about music, about the guitar and the more in tune with the function and language of music, the better you'll be able to create music and never be concerned about inspiration.

F'n amazing post Henry!

[henryrobinett]

Thank you!

I was just thinking . . . (always a dangerous thing for me).

When you think about a child playing with toys - he's creating these fantastic stories, wars, battles, castles bad guys, good guys. He's being very creative. But he's only using blocks. It's his imagination he's really using. He's not being hampered by technology. As a matter of fact, sometimes, the more toys that have fantastic realism, the less he uses his own imagination. The gun sounds are provided by the toy, the sword, horse, dialogue, etc.. So he becomes more bored by the structure given him. He needs more toys to spur his imagination. But it's HIS IMAGINATION, not the toys.

In music it's not the gear, but it's the framework of music. When one understands the language ones imagination can be let lose and run wild, because one can more easily realize what one is hearing. It's the imagination. Wouldn't it be great to imagine some incredible piece of music and KNOW exactly what it is? You can just reach over and write it or play it. I'm talking stretching your imagination and not being limited by a guitar or piano or even a DAW, -- Strings, sounds, orchestral harmonies.

A lot of folk get confused on this point because, in the early stages, they don't understand it and think theory is restrictive. Theory just explains what it is you ALREADY ARE HEARING.

I have some students who often ask me the same question -- "Is there a shortcut?"

Absolutely there is a shortcut -- PRACTICE. That's the shortcut. The long, arduous route is to not practice. It'll take you 100 times longer to learn how to play!

[Jax]

That was some truly great stuff, Henry! I don't have time to get into a detailed reply, besides, I don't know that one is warranted. I really appreciate what you shared and thank you.

[henryrobinett]

You're more than welcome. Thanks for asking!

[studjo]

Henry you must be a wonderful teacher - love your thoughts

Jo

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by studjo

Henry you must be a wonderful teacher - love your thoughts

Jo

Thank you!

[Digitar]

First off Henry your comments on most of your posts are entertaining and enlightening. Thank you

My experience has taught me a few things about improving as quickly as possible.

1. If you don't love it, don't do it. Your love of your instrument whether it be a guitar, piano, or mixing board is the only thing that will sustain you through all the lean times. You're going to have to put countless hours into your education and without love you'll either quit or become bitter.

2. Some might disagree but I believe that you should learn to play before you learn theory. Just as a child we learn to talk before we learn to read. I think the process of being a musician should be the same. Playing the songs that drew you to your instrument in the first place is the first step which will fill you with the feeling of accomplishment. That feeling of accomplishment is what will keep you moving forward in your progress.

3. Once you have some songs in you I think that the next natural step is going out and trying to find other musicians to play them with. There's nothing like the peer pressure of being in a band to push you to work harder. In my neighborhood we had bands on every street and there was always a sort of competition between us to push us to work just a little harder. By the way quite a few of the guys in my neighborhood have been in platinum selling bands, so I guess I'm not the only one who felt it too.

4. The next step is to start writing your own material. Once you start doing this I think this is where you have your first reality check. Now all of a sudden you realize just how much you don't know about music and the way it's put together. So you start looking for teachers and other more experienced musicians to try and learn more about music theory. This is where a lot of musicians decide to get a REAL JOB, and for others this is the time to really get serious and spend every waking moment practicing, studying, and writing.

5. After a while you start realizing the futility of trying to sound like your heroes and you dig deeper into yourself and try to find what seperates you from the crowd. This is a real emotional time because you have to really work harder than you ever have. Those ways of playing that you do just a little different than other musicians are just the very things that are going to make you stand out. All the knowledge and experience that you have acquired through all years in Theory, Arranging, Composition, Recording etc. will now be utilized to their fullest.

It's a long journey but well worth it if you love it.

Digitar

[Jax]

Digitar, great post! Heaps of wisdom there. Much of that is actually how I learned to play drums. All the while I listened closely to what the "real musicians" were playing. From them, I learned basic approaches for playing songs I knew and liked. Now I'm at the stage where transferring my knowledge and creativity to finding my own voice requires developing new approaches and techniques. I can relate very well to everything you said in that post.

Not every life path a musician or future musician can take is linear. There are endless variations to every theme. IOW, many of us have had to take Real Jobs to survive while at the same time, continuing to cultivate our music education. In an ideal situation, both would be possible. One choice would feed the other.

Thank you for your thoughts!

[Digitar]

Originally Posted by Jax

Not every life path a musician or future musician can take is linear. There are endless variations to every theme. IOW, many of us have had to take Real Jobs to survive while at the same time, continuing to cultivate our music education. In an ideal situation, both would be possible. One choice would feed the other.

Jax,

There are as many different paths as there are people. They're all worthwhile if we're learning from our experiences and counting our blessings along the way. You make me realize just how lucky I've been from never having to have what the world calls a REAL JOB. Thanks and Keep Rockin'

[Jax]

You are indeed fortunate to be doing what you love for a living. More power to ya!

If I try hard enough, I can get there, too. That's my ultimate goal.

[jagalactic]

Take lessons!

No matter how advanced you are, or whether you teach, paying somebody to help guide your journey is valuable. And it creates deadlines the keep you on your toes (who wants to show up for a lesson unprepared or unimproved [although we all do sometimes] ). It creates an ongoing process where you (as well as your teacher) need to think of new things to work on. For adults, I'm a believer in lessons every 2 weeks.

The next time I hear a player (proficient or otherwise) say something like "I don't want to learn music theory, because I don't want to limit my musical options" I will surely give the silly wanker a swirly. Music theory can be dry, and shouldn't be placed ahead of making music (for people who have the "mojo" ot be players) but the study of, for example, functional harmony and classic chord progressions is of huge benefit. But life is long and a lot of material can be mastered if you work at it. If you don't know and understand the "Rhythm Changes", that's your homework! (should you choose to accept it... ;-)

And one more thing. All serious players transcribe. Some of us write it all out (I've been transcribing classic jazz piano players recently, though I also play and transcribe guitar). Transcribing does not require that you write out the music, though; it is the discipline of learning, studying and understanding musical performances that you want to incorporate into your vocabulary.

Cheers,
John

[FFTT]

Henry is way more qualified than I am.

I'm a complete hack with zero formal training, all self taught totally by ear
with some minor help from chord books and sheer determination.

I can still barely tell anyone what chords I'm playing most of the time.

In fact I've used my tuner to tell myself what the heck I'm playing note wise
at times. I also use a lot of bass walk up lines between chords, so while
I'm actually playing very simple chords it sounds far more complex.

Tom Petty actually had some of the best advice.

Pick up a Beatles song book and do your best to learn every song you can.

Within those songs are a wealth of chords and playing styles.

Also the fact that the songs are so familiar makes it easy for you to
recognize when you've got it right.

When I was just starting out I would play for hours just watching TV to
improve my strength and coordination.

Set aside time for yourself on some sort of regular schedule that works for you.

Once you get past the basics, everything else becomes much easier.

[henryrobinett]

I think I heard Petty saying the same thing and I agree 1000%!

[FFTT]

Actually once you learn all the basic 1st position chords, you can play
almost every song on the Tom Petty Full Moon Fever album rather easily.

Amazing how simplicity can be so brilliant!

[CREAMY WILLIAMS]

Some really good posts here.

I really like the way you talk about guitar Henry - respect.

I am self taught, but have a reasonable understanding of scales and theory. As I am crap at maths the theory part was a nightmare for me, but I am glad I have developed an understanding of it.
I will never be a be-bop player, but being able to hear and understand the changes opens up a whole load of possibilities.

That's the thing - hearing it. It is all very well knowing theory, but if you can not turn it into music then you are just playing patterns.

One thing - spend just as much effort developing your sound, practicing your vibrato, string bending and dynamics as anything else. Getting these little, subtle things right is really hard work and takes loads of time. How many players have a really great, instantly recognisable vibrato like BB King, Paul Kossoff or Albert Collins? Not as many as there are speed merchants IMO.

Try singing along with your improvising - you don't have to do it through the mic - it really helps me construct solos in a more melodic way and curbs my instincts to play fast.

Another trick I use is to convince myself that the difficult part i am about to play is easy. Think confident thoughts and relax.
If you are not relaxed, you tend to transfer the stiffness from your body into the instrument and you can really hear it.

For me though, having the right mentality is way more important than technique, theory and sound.

I have been to some highly respected Jazz jam-sessions where great technicians are practicing patterns during other players solos and seem interested only in competing and showing how fast and clever they are.

A limited player with the right mentality is 100 times more useful than a technician on an ego trip, particularly outside the post-bop idiom.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by CREAMY WILLIAMS

Try singing along with your improvising - you don't have to do it through the mic - it really helps me construct solos in a more melodic way and curbs my instincts to play fast.

Another trick I use is to convince myself that the difficult part i am about to play is easy. Think confident thoughts and relax.
If you are not relaxed, you tend to transfer the stiffness from your body into the instrument and you can really hear it.

Great points, especially the hard/easy thing. I always tell my students that there's nothing really hard on the guitar, if you know how to break it down. Take section by section, really slow. Break it down into smaller, sub-sections. Repeat, over and over, if you're learning a difficult song or solo.

Singing and relaxing - all good. Guitar players, myself included, suffer from it being a non-breathing instrument, like a horn. You have to take a breath playing trumpet or sax, so phrasing is natural. Guitarists and pianists have to learn this. Singing helps. If you sing it you have to breathe and chances are you'll be more melodic if for no other reasons than that. Plus it can slow the speed demons down.

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by FFTT

I'm a complete hack with zero formal training, all self taught totally by ear
with some minor help from chord books and sheer determination.

You and me both, brother.

What helped me expand a bit was just slapping my finger across the neck in various places, figuring out what the chord was, and letting my fingers wander from there.

I AM a hack.

Come Away With Me